New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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murphyslaw

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Just a reminder that his book came out in 2019 (3 years ago) and his research and processes he discusses from big name breweries were from even before that, assuming it took him atleast the 2 years to write the book so we can assume it’s 5 years or older. Thiols are not discussed and the researched that proved which hop compounds that can actually be biotransformed and the strains that can do it were also not solidified yet.

This is not to claim there is no reason to add hops during active fermentation, as I do know it does create a slightly different character from post. That said a lot of the movement away from it is due to advancements in equipment that allows minimal o2 exposure during dryhoping, that high krausen dryhoping causes hop creep and hop burn, and the accessibility of lupulin concentrated pelleted and other products.
Sure, that’s all true about Janish’s book. 🍻

But I’m also talking about a May 6 2022 interview (Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine Podcast - 237: Less is More as Surly’s Ben Smith Pursues Bigger Hop Flavor in Hazy IPA and a Refined Approach to West Coast IPA) with Surly’s head brewer that was very much focused on Thiols. He talks about learning about mash hoping from collaborating with other half and how it gets you thiol precursors without leaving junk in the beer like a whirlpool addition might. He’s talking about working with omega on new thiol centric yeast strains that haven’t been released yet. He might be describing a dry hopping method developed before learning of this stuff, and maybe that’ll change. But he seems cutting edge on thiols and at least right now still dry hops during fermentation on all his core NEIPAs.

The Roaring Table Interview was on from may 20, 2022. Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine Podcast - 239: Roaring Table Brews For Elegance, Simplicity, and Texture in Hazy IPA, Pilsner, and Mixed Fermentation I don’t recall a discussion of thiols.

I’m certainly not saying they’re right or you guys are wrong about dry hoping. I’ve never had their NEIPAs and have no idea what they taste like. I’m trying 100% post fermentation dry hopping myself with several batches right now.

Frankly, when I go around looking for harder research, and by that I mean interviews with pros or more technical paper type stuff, i often walk away thinking, “yeah, we’ve been on that in the HBT NEIPA thread for a long time”. I don’t post a lot but I’ve been following this since Braufessor started it. I think this is the best source of info for brewing these styles. Heck, I've got this evernote file where I collect things I read about NEIPAs and later use for recipe development. Half of it is screenshots of posts by @Dgallo @VirginiaHops1 and others.

But we’ve still all got to try it out for ourselves. We don’t all necessarily have the same ideal in mind. I've got something marinating along those lines that I'll share later regarding spelt malt. 🍻
 
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HopsAreGood

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Alvarado Street, great notion, weld works, the breweries you mentioned, and tons of other breweries still dry hop during fermentation one way or another. The trend here has definitely gone to post fermentation dry hopping, but both techniques still have their place. To me it really is a matter of preference. I’ve done both ways tons of times and have recently settled in more on only post fermentation dry hopping. That being said some of the favorite beers I’ve ever brewed, were dry hopped during fermentation and after.

I’m pretty sure all of treehouse core IPAs have active fermentation dry hopping as well. Unless that has changed. To me neither way is better, they’re just different. For me my personal preference has leaned towards post fermentation dry hopping, but I’ll probably revisit some during as well.
 

Dgallo

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Sure, that’s all true about Janish’s book. 🍻

But I’m also talking about a May 6 2022 interview (Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine Podcast - 237: Less is More as Surly’s Ben Smith Pursues Bigger Hop Flavor in Hazy IPA and a Refined Approach to West Coast IPA) with Surly’s head brewer that was very much focused on Thiols. He talks about learning about mash hoping from collaborating with other half and how it gets you thiol precursors without leaving junk in the beer like a whirlpool addition might. He’s talking about working with omega on new thiol centric yeast strains that haven’t been released yet. He might be describing a dry hopping method developed before learning of this stuff, and maybe that’ll change. But he seems cutting edge on thiols and at least right now still dry hops during fermentation on all his core NEIPAs.

The Roaring Table Interview was on from may 20, 2022. Craft Beer & Brewing Magazine Podcast - 239: Roaring Table Brews For Elegance, Simplicity, and Texture in Hazy IPA, Pilsner, and Mixed Fermentation I don’t recall a discussion of thiols.

I’m certainly not saying they’re right or you guys are wrong about dry hoping. I’ve never had their NEIPAs and have no idea what they taste like. I’m trying 100% post fermentation dry hopping myself with several batches right now.

Frankly, when I go around looking for harder research, and by that I mean interviews with pros or more technical paper type stuff, i often walk away thinking, “yeah, we’ve been on that in the HBT NEIPA thread for a long time”. I don’t post a lot but I’ve been following this since Braufessor started it. I think this is the best source of info for brewing these styles. Heck, I've got this evernote file where I collect things I read about NEIPAs and later use for recipe development. Half of it is screenshots of posts by @Dgallo @VirginiaHops1 and others.

But we’ve still all got to try it out for ourselves. We don’t all necessarily have the same ideal in mind. I've got something marinating along those lines that I'll share later regarding spelt malt. 🍻
Agreed that preference is certainly everything. Do what works for you and your taste buds!
 

aaronm13

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I've gone through pretty much everyway to hop over the last few years and settled on the post fermentation and soft crash approach as my go to for a long time, until my last brew. It was a Citra DIPA that I posted a few pages back, except on this one I did a small charge (1oz lupomax and 1oz T90) during fermentation and my traditional post fermentation dry hop. This is hands down my best NEIPA to date. No I don't know of its down to fermentation dry hop or coincidence but will go down this method for a few more brews to see.

I also agree with what @murphyslaw said about what everyone thinks a NEIPA should be is different. Even in my own club some think they should have zero bitterness and some like a small bit of bitterness, me included. I guess it all comes down to what brewery's and their interpretation of the style you have the most access to.
 
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Are any of you natural carbing your NEIPAs in the keg, and does it have a noticeable effect on reducing oxidation and hops flavor longevity vs force carbing? According to some readings in the LODO threads, force carbing introduces some level of O2 vs virtually zero O2 after natural carbing. Presently I carbonate using a carb stone during a 48hr cold crash in my conical fermenter, then I closed-transfer to a StarSan-purged keg, and tap it the next day or up to a week later. I've been getting great results, but once I tap the keg, the clock starts ticking fast to flavor-fade-town. I usually get about 2 great weeks then so-so afterwards. I'm thinking to experiment on a future batch right after cold crash to raise the temp back to soft crash levels and add priming solution (maybe with CBC-1?) in the fermenter and then keg and keep the keg at room temp for a week, hoping that that the second fermentation will initiate full O2 scrubbing in the keg. I'm a little worried about initiating hop creep which was an issue for me before, but has been avoided since I've been dry hopping after terminal and at soft crash temps. Let me know if this makes sense or any other ideas to improve NEIPA and hops flavor longevity. PS: I have upgraded my liquid and gas lines to EVABarrier.
 

Dgallo

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Are any of you natural carbing your NEIPAs in the keg, and does it have a noticeable effect on reducing oxidation and hops flavor longevity vs force carbing? According to some readings in the LODO threads, force carbing introduces some level of O2 vs virtually zero O2 after natural carbing. Presently I carbonate using a carb stone during a 48hr cold crash in my conical fermenter, then I closed-transfer to a StarSan-purged keg, and tap it the next day or up to a week later. I've been getting great results, but once I tap the keg, the clock starts ticking fast to flavor-fade-town. I usually get about 2 great weeks then so-so afterwards. I'm thinking to experiment on a future batch right after cold crash to raise the temp back to soft crash levels and add priming solution (maybe with CBC-1?) in the fermenter and then keg and keep the keg at room temp for a week, hoping that that the second fermentation will initiate full O2 scrubbing in the keg. I'm a little worried about initiating hop creep which was an issue for me before, but has been avoided since I've been dry hopping after terminal and at soft crash temps. Let me know if this makes sense or any other ideas to improve NEIPA and hops flavor longevity. PS: I have upgraded my liquid and gas lines to EVABarrier.
I naturally carb my German lager often but have only naturally carbed 2 NEIPAS. I did not notice a difference in mouthfeel or softness, however, it will certainly help with limiting o2. I personally choose to force carb because I go to great lengths with my current equipment to dryhop with the yeast removed and I feel it’s counter intuitive to my best practices (based on my equipment set up).

All that said. There are no negatives to naturally carbing by spunding or priming. With priming it would be a good practice to deoxygenate the water as the yeast will more than likely be able to metabolize the sugar anaerobically at that point and won’t scavenge the o2
 
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wepeeler

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Just to touch on this again, Roaring Table, which has won awards for their hazy beers, dry hops during fermentation and afterwards. This morning, I listened to a podcast with the head brewer from Surly who says that for their core hazys, they use two dry hop charges--one at the same time they pitch yeast and the other just before it reaches terminal gravity. I've been reading and listening to the brewer from Wayfarer a bit lately, too, and he dry hops during fermentation.

There are a lot of people here that are heavily influenced by the writings of Scott Janish. And rightfully so. I am one myself. I read all his stuff and occasionally make it out to his brewery. My understanding, and this might be wrong, is that his work sort of sent a lot of the people here on the post-fermentation dry hop route. He certainly planted that idea in my head. But if I remember right, toward the end of his book, he talks about the processes used by a bunch of different breweries and they're all different. Some dry hop during fermentation, some after.

Ultimately, I very strongly believe that there is a huge divergence in what people think NEIPAs are/should be. I still remember the first NEIPA I had--a growler of Haze from their Monson Brewery, opened at a nearby byo bbq place because Treehouse didn't have a license to drink on premises. From that moment, their beers have been cemented in my head as what a NEIPA "should" be (more accurately, what I want in a NEIPA). But there's probably 20 breweries in my area that make NEIPAs and only three that I think are worth emulating. Two of those make NEIPAs that are very different from Treehouse but still delicious (Astrolab & Janish's Sapwood). Other Half dc is the other, which is in line with what I have cemented in my mind of what a NEIPA "should" be (subjectively!).

I've never had NEIPAs from Roaring Table, Surly, or Wayfarer. So I can't say whether their process is more or less likely to achieve what I want than what those here advocate. Its not quite like brewing an American Pale Ale where we all have Sierra Nevada Pale Ale in mind as the traditional example. It makes comparing notes a lot more challenging, IMO. So we've all got to experiment and see for ourselves!
Ahh Tree House and BT's Smokehouse. Those were the days...
 

murphyslaw

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Wouldn’t spunding be easier? If you’re okay with dry hoping during active fermentation then you can dry hop and spund when fermentation is almost done.

If you want to avoid dry hoping during active fermentation, then you’ve got to open the fermenter at some point post fermentation, risking o2 intake, regardless of whether you force or naturally carb. So why not spund to terminal, soft crash, and then add hops?

To me, it seems like a hassel to crash, warm, prime with cbc1, and then wait.
 

murphyslaw

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So I brewed two beers, nearly identical, one with 10% white wheat malt and the other 10% spelt. That was the only difference.

I was really surprised at how different they were. I mean, it’s a small % of a wheat with a little more protein? The difference is night and day.

Just like you all said, less chewy/slick, a bit lighter/softer while still full feeling. I think dryer, too, making another sip a bit more inviting. Really impressed.

Thanks to everyone who tried it and shared your results. I never would have thought to try this.
 

HopsAreGood

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Two examples of highly respected, sought after breweries clearly dry hopping during fermentation. I think I’m going to start playing around with this again, In conjunction with the soft crash/post fermentation dry hop. Alvarado street is clearly using b-glucosidase (aromazyme) The head brewer says so openly in several videos.

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Ulisses4677

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Just a reminder that his book came out in 2019 (3 years ago) and his research and processes he discusses from big name breweries were from even before that, assuming it took him atleast the 2 years to write the book so we can assume it’s 5 years or older. Thiols are not discussed and the researched that proved which hop compounds that can actually be biotransformed and the strains that can do it were also not solidified yet.

This is not to claim there is no reason to add hops during active fermentation, as I do know it does create a slightly different character from post. That said a lot of the movement away from it is due to advancements in equipment that allows minimal o2 exposure during dryhoping, that high krausen dryhoping causes hop creep and hop burn, and the accessibility of lupulin concentrated pelleted and other products.
👍🏽
 

Dgallo

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Nice. I just looked on Instagram and you guys have two locations. Must be doing something right. I’m only about an hour from Philly so I’ll try to check it out sometime.
If you do happen to stop there and grab stuff let me know. I’d trade you some local stuff from up here and we can even do a hb trade if you’re interested
 

Noob_Brewer

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So based on @HopsAreGood post on his single hopped NEIPA with nectaron, I decided to break into my ration to make my own. This was a tough decision; bring in the Seinfeld reference to "are you sponge worthy" and replacing with "are you nectaron worthy" LMAO. Anyways, glad I did. Made a single strength NEIPA at 6.5%, finished at FG 1.015, and been on the keg since Tuesday. Just had to sneak a peak at this. I like it a lot. Definitely get some gooseberry vibe with stone fruit on the end of the palate. On the front end of the palate there is a NZ spice note that I can't describe. Its not strong NZ diesel like you can get from Nelson, but its definitely unique and very pleasant. For just one hop variety, there's a lot going on with this and wasn't expecting this much "variety" of flavors from one hop alone. One of my HB club members was getting a little "floral" note from it too, I kind of agree but not sure I would've spotted that without his suggestion lol. Im digging it.

IMG_3071.jpg
 

TBryerton

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Alvarado Street, great notion, weld works, the breweries you mentioned, and tons of other breweries still dry hop during fermentation one way or another. The trend here has definitely gone to post fermentation dry hopping, but both techniques still have their place. To me it really is a matter of preference. I’ve done both ways tons of times and have recently settled in more on only post fermentation dry hopping. That being said some of the favorite beers I’ve ever brewed, were dry hopped during fermentation and after.

I’m pretty sure all of treehouse core IPAs have active fermentation dry hopping as well. Unless that has changed. To me neither way is better, they’re just different. For me my personal preference has leaned towards post fermentation dry hopping, but I’ll probably revisit some during as well.
Dry hopping early in Fermentation and dry hopping at the tail end are very different things. It’s not fair to categorize all breweries who add hops before FG into one bucket. I highly doubt TH is dumping in their hops early in the process. Their beer is typically best a month or so in, depending on beer. In my experience adding hops early in fermentation can get you some amazing flavors, but they fall off extremely fast. I still think you should treat this type of beer like any other style. My best hoppy beers are when I focus on a healthy fermentation and don’t rush it. My IPAs are not very good three weeks after brew day. But they’re great a month after that. Most of the big boys will want to harvest yeast prior to adding hops, so there’s that as well.
 

Beenym88

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Nice. I just looked on Instagram and you guys have two locations. Must be doing something right. I’m only about an hour from Philly so I’ll try to check it out sometime.
Yea we’re putting out good stuff with a constantly rotating menu. I’m really excited about the the mango milkshake ipa on nitro coming up. It would definitely be worth the trip there’s lots of breweries around us too. Human robot is getting a ton of buzz for their decoction lagars.
 

InspectorJon

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Just read a recent post in the warm fermented lager thread so I thought I’d stop by here and say NEIPA is just a lazy way to brew for those that don’t care enough to make good clear IPA. 🤭
 

Ulisses4677

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Just read a recent post in the warm fermented lager thread so I thought I’d stop by here and say NEIPA is just a lazy way to brew for those that don’t care enough to make good clear IPA. 🤭
If it’s that easy come holla at me when you make a good neipa.I been brewing for year and I still stove to make a better neipa but that’s just me.
 

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Dgallo

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Just read a recent post in the warm fermented lager thread so I thought I’d stop by here and say NEIPA is just a lazy way to brew for those that don’t care enough to make good clear IPA. 🤭
You mean like this?
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This took far less effort to make than a quality NEIPA does.
 
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InspectorJon

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If it’s that easy come holla at me when you make a good neipa.I been brewing for year and I still stove to make a better neipa but that’s just me.
I was posting in jest. I have made passable NEIPA, a couple I really liked. It is an art form not everyone appreciates and “clearly” not a simple task. I have followed this thread for a few years now and it has improved my brewing and allowed me to make a hazy beer I can be proud of. Thanks to all the contractors.

I found it amusing that someone posted a comment in the warm fermented lager thread saying it was inferior after 2000 posts saying it was good.
 

Jimmy_Hops

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Has anyone used ALDC with success on the home brewing scale yet? I’m tired of getting diacetyl bombs even after passing forced VDK tests (or so I thought) so I’m willing to try it out to hopefully solve the issue. I didn’t have it when I pitched the yeast so I just added some with the first dry hop to at least avoid hop creep.
 

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aaronm13

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Brewing this weekend with Nectaron again and basing it another @HopsAreGood recipe. It's the one with Mosaic and Idaho 7 hot side and Nectaron and Nelson cold side. Scaling it back this time to around 6.5% but with a hopping rate of a DIPA.

Also thinking about using a small bit of Mosaic in the dry hop just so my supply of Nectaron will go a little further. Any reason why Mosaic wouldn't work in the dry hop?
 

nebulabrewing

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I kegged ten gallons of 21C on Sunday and pulled a sample last night just to see where the carbonation is (and I was just eager to drink some haha).

This was a split batch between Lutra (pictured) and Verdant yeast. The last couple of brews I made, I was able to get 98% brewhouse efficiency. So for this batch, I wanted to experiment with a 40 minute mash and a really fast sparge to see if I could shorten my brew day slightly just for fun. I managed to get a 72% BE, so I was happy about that!

ABV: 5.8%
IBU's: 55
OG: 1.056
FG: 1.012
Water: CA: 100 Mg: 10 Na: 8 Cl: 139 SO: 93 HC: 16
Mash: 151°F

Grains
40% Golden Promise, 40% Pilsner, 8% Oats, 8% Wheat, 4% Carapils

Hops
Columbus, Rakau, Mosaic, Sabro, Galaxy

Yeast
Lutra (1/ea dry)
Verdant (2/ea dry)

Overall Impression
So far, it's pretty good. My first time using a heavy dose of Rakau in a WP and it's great. Lots of peach, passion fruit, apricot — with a side of plum/mango. Pretty happy with the results.


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wepeeler

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Just got some hops in the mail that I've never used before. Got a pound each of Cashmere and Strata. Was planning an all Simcoe neipa, because the last one I made was my favorite to date, but does anyone have suggestions for incorporating Cashmere or Strata into the hop bill? On hand I have Citra, Mosaic, Strata, Cashmere, Amarillo, Idaho Gem...

10# Mecca Lamonta
3# Mecca Shaniko
2# Carafoam

Coastal Haze
 

ihavenonickname

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How can you have over 100% mash efficiency?
You can’t. It’s impossible. There has to be some measurement error. Usually it’s a volume error. To achieve 100% mash efficiency you would have to sparge till runnings are 1.000 or centrifuge the mash grains to reduce grain absorption to 0.0 (get every drop) and then to approach 100% brewhouse efficiency you would have to do the same to any trub and all the hop additions to reduce your kettle losses to 0.0. OR you could dump your whole kettle of trub and hops and all into your fermenter and expect your friends to drink every last drop of trub and dead yeast till their farts stink. THATS 100% BHE.

Edit: so 98% BHE means you have to do that to all but 12 oz of it in a 5g batch.
 
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nebulabrewing

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There has to be some measurement error. Usually it’s a volume error. To achieve 100% mash efficiency you would have to sparge till runnings are 1.000 or centrifuge the mash grains to reduce grain absorption to 0.0 (get every drop) and then to approach 100% brewhouse efficiency you would have to do the same to any trub and all the hop additions to reduce your kettle losses to 0.0. OR you could dump your whole kettle of trub and hops and all into your fermenter and expect your friends to drink every last drop of trub and dead yeast till their farts stink. THATS 100% BHE.

Edit: so 98% BHE means you have to do that to all but 12 oz of it in a 5g batch.
I did have an error on that day.

The original recipe has my correct volumes with a 74% BE because I typically use that as a baseline to create my recipes. The second picture is the actual brew day batch with corrections of the brew day.

This is where the error happened. While I was sparging, I realized I was looking at the “total water needed” for the recipe and collected more wort than I wanted. So, instead of collecting my usual 13.5g, I collected 15.5. But, even though I collected more volume my OG was still significantly higher.
 

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Dgallo

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I did have an error on that day.

The original recipe has my correct volumes with a 74% BE because I typically use that as a baseline to create my recipes. The second picture is the actual brew day batch with corrections of the brew day.

This is where the error happened. While I was sparging, I realized I was looking at the “total water needed” for the recipe and collected more wort than I wanted. So, instead of collecting my usual 13.5g, I collected 15.5. But, even though I collected more volume my OG was still significantly higher.
What was the total lb of your grain bill. I’m also confused by your numbers. Shows your mash efficiency above 100% in the second picture
 

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