I will be making this BM recipe, he used a "slurry" of safale-04 yeast, I have some dry packets, since the OG is pretty high, should I try to do a starter with this dry yeast ( only did starter with liquid yeast before) or just throw 2 pack of the yeast? thx in advance...
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- Thread starter icebob
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If possible just drop 2 packets I'd guess.
I keep reading that starters don't work for dry yeast. I'm sure it does, but it seems as though it may be more work than a liquid starter. And since the particulars aren't well known I'd stick with what will work.
I keep reading that starters don't work for dry yeast. I'm sure it does, but it seems as though it may be more work than a liquid starter. And since the particulars aren't well known I'd stick with what will work.
Puddlethumper
Well-Known Member
If the OG is 1.055 or higher I would definitely pitch two packets of dry yeast. Don't bother with a starter. If you are comfortable with the process of rehydrating the yeast then definitely include that in the brewing session (just remember to use twice the pasteurized water as with one packet).
It'll turn out great!
Cheers.
p.s. You really only need to make a starter with liquid yeast and with yeast you have harvested and are getting going for a fresh batch. Starters are not necessary with dry yeast.
Agreed, just throw the two packs in and call it a day.
Here is a good blog post on yeast starters. http://www.jaysbrewing.com/2013/01/23/19-steps-for-yeast-starter/
Here is a good blog post on yeast starters. http://www.jaysbrewing.com/2013/01/23/19-steps-for-yeast-starter/
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello, as stated above, 2 packs if OG is High, Rehydration works great with the dry yeast, even better than just pitching it on top of your wort, if you feel you need to make a starter with dry yeast you can after you rehydrate it, that way the yeast cells have a chance to equalize before trying to convert any sugars.
Cheers
Cheers
When in doubt use one of the free web tools like Mr Malty to be sure you pitch enough yeast. You will consistently make better beer when you pitch the right amount of yeast. Like others have said, with an OG that high it's def gonna take 1 1/2 or 2.
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asterix404
Well-Known Member
GAH! I hate it when people say that making a starter for dry yeast doesn't work. It will work perfectly fine. The reason you shouldn't do it is that DME is more expensive than another packet or two.
I really also dislike Mr. Malty. I get exactly what the author is doing and it is great but your beer doesn't fail if you don't make the massive amount of yeast slurry. What you can do though is overpitch and that is a problem. Also a lot of yeasts really like it when you underpitch so it is all over the place. Basically, add nutrient, if you use liquid, make a 1.5L starter and pitch it. If you use dry, pitch 1 packet for <=50GP, >50GP 2 packets <= 70GP and 3 packets + oxygen for > 70GP. Nutrient should be used every time.
BTW. I have severely underpitched on more than one occasion and I didn't do big beers for a very long time. The beer turns out more or less fine. I am sure it shouldn't be entered into a comp but hell, for drinking purposes who cares that much? Liquid starters are more about getting the yeast energized. Pitching a 1.5L starter on a stir plate for a 80GP beer is going to work. Blast that O2 and it will take off. Use Mr. Malty and they tell you to use 2G of starter. You want the yeast as vigorous and active as possible. The yeast will most likely multiple in the aerobic environment like mad anyway and inoculate just fine.
I really also dislike Mr. Malty. I get exactly what the author is doing and it is great but your beer doesn't fail if you don't make the massive amount of yeast slurry. What you can do though is overpitch and that is a problem. Also a lot of yeasts really like it when you underpitch so it is all over the place. Basically, add nutrient, if you use liquid, make a 1.5L starter and pitch it. If you use dry, pitch 1 packet for <=50GP, >50GP 2 packets <= 70GP and 3 packets + oxygen for > 70GP. Nutrient should be used every time.
BTW. I have severely underpitched on more than one occasion and I didn't do big beers for a very long time. The beer turns out more or less fine. I am sure it shouldn't be entered into a comp but hell, for drinking purposes who cares that much? Liquid starters are more about getting the yeast energized. Pitching a 1.5L starter on a stir plate for a 80GP beer is going to work. Blast that O2 and it will take off. Use Mr. Malty and they tell you to use 2G of starter. You want the yeast as vigorous and active as possible. The yeast will most likely multiple in the aerobic environment like mad anyway and inoculate just fine.
WileECoyote
Well-Known Member
Hello, I don't mean to rain on your parade but.
Its actually better for dry yeasts health to not make a starter initially with it, dry yeast cells need time to acclimate back into being able to eat sugar and produce alcohol/co2.
Dry yeast when introduced directly into wort or a starter, can't regulate the direction of flow thru the cell walls and the thicker liquid can cause the cell walls to burst, thats why you should really rehydrate the dry yeast in water first before pitching, rehydrating the yeast in water gives the yeast cell walls time to acclimate getting the flow going in the right direction.
Cheers
asterix404
Well-Known Member
Dry yeast comes with the proper nutrient set to get reaclimated. It is why when you rehydrate with it will bubble. The reason that no one makes a starter with dry yeast is that dry yeast is really cheap and you get a ton more than liquid packs. Another packet of dry yeast is less than the cost of a starter. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from hydrating your yeast, and putting it into a starter. People don't because it is far more cost effective to just buy more dry yeast. If I remember correctly, one packet contains 2 to 3 times as much yeast as a smack pack. When you make a starter with a liquid yeast, you are producing 2 to 3 times as much yeast as you started with, or more.
With dry yeast, you should rehydrate it. The shock of being put into wort does kill off yeast cells if they are not acclimated. I don't bother with boiled or distilled water to do this. I suppose if you are super paranoid you can but I worry about other things and I hate having to wait for boiled water to cool.
With dry yeast, you should rehydrate it. The shock of being put into wort does kill off yeast cells if they are not acclimated. I don't bother with boiled or distilled water to do this. I suppose if you are super paranoid you can but I worry about other things and I hate having to wait for boiled water to cool.
I buy the bulk of my ingredients from MoreBeer and take advantage of the free shipping on large orders. I generally buy the 2 lb bags of DME, which cost $8.75. A 1 qt starter using 1/4 lb of DME cost me $1.094. That's far cheaper than another packet of dry yeast. That's less than 1/3 the cost of another packet.
I have tried using a starterwith US-05 it didn't really help it much. I have tried pitching dry yeast directly into the wort, that took nearly 16 hours to take off and it ended up stalling well before it was finished. Now if I use dry yest, I just re-hydrate it with warm water. Usually takes off in under 6 hours and doesn't stall out.
asterix404
Well-Known Member
Okay. Sorry for not being clear. Perhaps I should have used the word "cost effective". A yeast packet costs about 3$. Wyeast costs between 8 and 10. If you chose to make a starter, let us just say that you use 1$ in DME and you get twice as much yeast at the end.
That means that if you spend 1$ you get 3$ worth of dry yeast (not guaranteed but let us assume) but if you spend 1$ you get 10$ worth of liquid.
Now you factor in time. I spend 24-48h on a starter and it takes me about an hour to prepare. Rehydrating a packet of yeast takes about 5 minutes. For dry yeast, so far I am saving 2$ while spending 1h and waiting a day. For me personally, that just does not justify a starter. For liquid yeast, I am saving 9$ while spending 1h and waiting a day AND I am getting a pitchable amount of yeast. Oh yea, with liquid yeast you need to wait at least 3h for the packet to expand anyway. If you spend 3h waiting, might as well just make a starter. At least, that is my reasoning.
Spend the extra 2$, pitch two packets, be happy. Just yes, use the exact same process CA_Mouse stated. Use warm water (85-110). Pour your yeast into the water, mix it around, wait until it bubbles.
BTW. This analysis is only true for ale yeast. Lager yeast is much much harder to work with and pitching rates are much much higher. I found when I was making lager that pitch rates required so much yeast that liquid was not feasible. Saflager s23 is about 5$ for a pack but you get a ton of yeast, far far more than a smack pack. I pitch 2 or 3 packets of s23 when I make lager. I think I once calculated on a stir plate that I would need at least 4L of starter or about .25L of slurry to get comparable amounts of yeast. When I brew lager, I only use s23. It is also a fantastic strain.
That means that if you spend 1$ you get 3$ worth of dry yeast (not guaranteed but let us assume) but if you spend 1$ you get 10$ worth of liquid.
Now you factor in time. I spend 24-48h on a starter and it takes me about an hour to prepare. Rehydrating a packet of yeast takes about 5 minutes. For dry yeast, so far I am saving 2$ while spending 1h and waiting a day. For me personally, that just does not justify a starter. For liquid yeast, I am saving 9$ while spending 1h and waiting a day AND I am getting a pitchable amount of yeast. Oh yea, with liquid yeast you need to wait at least 3h for the packet to expand anyway. If you spend 3h waiting, might as well just make a starter. At least, that is my reasoning.
Spend the extra 2$, pitch two packets, be happy. Just yes, use the exact same process CA_Mouse stated. Use warm water (85-110). Pour your yeast into the water, mix it around, wait until it bubbles.
BTW. This analysis is only true for ale yeast. Lager yeast is much much harder to work with and pitching rates are much much higher. I found when I was making lager that pitch rates required so much yeast that liquid was not feasible. Saflager s23 is about 5$ for a pack but you get a ton of yeast, far far more than a smack pack. I pitch 2 or 3 packets of s23 when I make lager. I think I once calculated on a stir plate that I would need at least 4L of starter or about .25L of slurry to get comparable amounts of yeast. When I brew lager, I only use s23. It is also a fantastic strain.
There are differing thoughts on what happens if you make a starter using dry yeast and usually it is not good. At least the cells do not rehydrate well in wort, so you are pitching unhealthy yeast. At worst you are actually killing cells, so you might actually be pitching fewer yeast cells.
BTW, If you are using a Wyeast smack pack there is no reason to wait for the pack to swell. The inner pack is nutrient to proof the yeast and/or to energize them. The yeast itself would be approximately the same as what comes in a White Labs vial. I do add the nutrient to the starter - no sense in wasting it.
BTW, If you are using a Wyeast smack pack there is no reason to wait for the pack to swell. The inner pack is nutrient to proof the yeast and/or to energize them. The yeast itself would be approximately the same as what comes in a White Labs vial. I do add the nutrient to the starter - no sense in wasting it.
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