Noob, Is this a sign that I should re pitch ?

[AxelF]

I have just started to try home brewing for the first time,
I managed to get a stout and a German Extra Light Bier to ferment OK.
So I thought I would give a German Pilsner a try and bought a Gozdawa kit.
I followed the instructions except when that I added 1kg of Sugar I used 1kg of brewing sugar (Glucose/Dextrose).
I only had 2 x 10L Buckets so I split the wort into two and diluted the solution to 20L insetad of the max 23L on the recipe.
I also cocked up when pitching the wort .. I had 100ML of boiled/cooled water but I could not accurately split the yeast pitch as 100ml was the smallest division on my jug.
So I used luke warm tap water approx 20C (sorry :-( ) to dilute to 200ml and then stirred 100ml into each bucket.
Admittedly I did not stir for 2 min to oxygenate as per the recipe but I stirred as thoroughly as by other two brews.
I was trying to keep the temp between 16-19 C.
After 48hrs I am getting no CO2 on either bucket.

I opened up the buckets and they looked like they where not fermenting.
I stirred the wort for 2min to oxygenate (2nd picture).

Did I kill the yeast with the tap water ?
Should I try to re pitch with some fresh German bottom yeast I have .... or is the wort completely ruined ?

#NoobSchoolboyHowler :-(

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Welcome to HBT! They definitely look like they're fermenting - the foamy stuff on top (which is just getting starter in beer2) is evidence of fermentation called 'krausen' (pronounced croysen).

 

[AxelF]

Thanks Enjoying the hobby so far.
When I opened the buckets it it looked like beer2.png ..... So I stirred the wort for 2min and then it looked like beer1.png.
Perhaps its just bad yeast and its taking its time to replicate. Lets see if stirring helped kick start it.
I read up that pilsner ferments cold and uses bottom yeast, so maybe slow progress is expected at the beginning.
However with these kits you would expect them to use either top or hybrid yeast as noobs wont have the ability to keep the temp below room temp.
I hear its also possible to glucose saturate the wort, but even if I had used table sugar (sucrose) the yeast would have broken that down to glucose anyway.
#fingerscrossed

 

[Gnomebrewer]

In the future, don't stir beer (it becomes 'beer' not 'wort' after yeast is pitched) once fermentation has started - you risk oxidation. There's nothing bad about the yeast - 48 hours for a dry yeast to have good signs of fermentation is quite normal.
You are correct that pilsner is fermented cool with lager yeast (sometimes called bottom yeast) and you are also correct that the kit yeast is most probably an ale yeast (top yeast) so technically it's not a pilsner. RDWHAHB. It all looks good - leave it alone until it's ready to bottle.

 

[AxelF]

Thanks for your advice, appreciated ..... I thought for a moment I'd glucose saturated the yeast by missing only adding 20L instead of 23L
Point noted. don't stir the beer

 

[dnr]

The one thing that helped me to fight the fear of a stalled fermentation...
Yeast starter. I pitch my yeast into boiled, then cooled water. After about 15 minutes, I will add wort and let it sit for about another 15-30 minutes.
You see the krausen start to form and the yeast come to life. It's like Sea Monkeys but tastier.

Anyway, I like to do this when using dry yeast because fermentation kicks off quicker and more noticably.

 

[VikeMan]

The one thing that helped me to fight the fear of a stalled fermentation...
Yeast starter. I pitch my yeast into boiled, then cooled water. After about 15 minutes, I will add wort and let it sit for about another 15-30 minutes.
You see the krausen start to form and the yeast come to life. It's like Sea Monkeys but tastier.

Anyway, I like to do this when using dry yeast because fermentation kicks off quicker and more noticably.

That's really more of a "proofing" of the yeast (i.e. verifying that it's alive) than a starter. A starter, even a so-called "vitality" starter, would be going for much longer than a half hour (and use a fairly substantial amount of wort).

 

[dnr]

That's really more of a "proofing" of the yeast (i.e. verifying that it's alive) than a starter. A starter, even a so-called "vitality" starter, would be going for much longer than a half hour (and use a fairly substantial amount of wort).

Then I do a proofing to help to curb worry at the start of fermentation.

 

[VikeMan]

Then I do a proofing to help to curb worry at the start of fermentation.

That's exactly the reason to proof yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

Anyway, I like to do this when using dry yeast because fermentation kicks off quicker and more noticably.

Although a reduced lag time can be beneficial, do you get a better, healthier, overall fermentation?
IOW, do you reach FG faster and/or lower than when pitching dry? And get cleaner, better tasting beer?
These attributes are not that simple to measure, even qualitatively.

The dry yeast manufacturers, Fermentis especially, started to recommend not to pre-hydrate or proof the yeast before pitching, but instead, just sprinkle the dry granules on top of the wort surface and let be, don't stir. Not sure why they changed their tune a few years ago, possibly due to (a) their research and/or (b) making the pitching process simpler. Just do 1, instead of 1, 2, and 3 within a specific temp range, volume, and timing.

There's something about sterol reserves in the dried yeast cells that's been optimized for dry pitching (sprinkling). Pre-hydration, even in an opened pouch that got damp inside and then stored again, ruins that.

Also look up "petite mutantes" (small mutants).

 

[dnr]

@IslandLizard
I'm still new to the game, but I have noticed a difference between proofing and pitching dry.

Kicking off fermentation right away instead of within 48 hours, for one.
Reaching a lower FG quicker (in my limited trials).
And the experience also got me less afraid of hurting the yeast. I see them come to life and flourish. It's made me more open to rinsing my yeast cake and repitching.

I went from being terrified, to being pumped about harvesting multiple generations for a possibly high gravity brew.

But, ultimately, it takes fear and uncertainty out of the equation for me. I know my yeast is awake and alive and ready to make me some beer.
But I do feel like I've seen a slight difference.

 

[AxelF]

Stirring the beer up a bit and resealing the lid seemed to kick start the fermentation ... So it was either a lack of oxygen or a bad sachet of yeast that had a lot of dead culture .... It took time for the yeast to replicate to a critical mass

 

[ncbrewer]

The dry yeast manufacturers, Fermentis especially, started to recommend not to pre-hydrate or proof the yeast before pitching, but instead, just sprinkle the dry granules on top of the wort surface and let be, don't stir.

The latest Fermentis recommendations are here: https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_BAT_BD.pdf
They call for filling the fermenter with wort until the cone is filled - sprinkle the dry yeast - then finish filling the fermenter. And they recommend against just sprinkling the yeast on the wort if it is foamy since some of the yeast won't be in the liquid. (This reco was in an email from Fermentis - not on the website.)

 

[VikeMan]

The latest Fermentis recommendations are here: https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brochure_Tips_and_Tricks_BAT_BD.pdf
They call for filling the fermenter with wort until the cone is filled - sprinkle the dry yeast - then finish filling the fermenter.

it might be worth noting that that recommendation is aimed at commercial brewers, i.e. brewers who usually ferment in conicals. I suspect the reason is that it would be difficult to sprinkle yeast over the top of the wort in most big conicals. (They don't have lids.)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Personally, I just sprinkle it on top and walk away. Good results every time. YMMV.

 

[ncbrewer]

it might be worth noting that that recommendation is aimed at commercial brewers, i.e. brewers who usually ferment in conicals. I suspect the reason is that it would be difficult to sprinkle yeast over the top of the wort in most big conicals. (They don't have lids.)

The basic procedure does refer to a conical fermenter (mainly commercial brewers, but also some home brewers). But the advice not to dry pitch on a foamy surface and leave it was an email message to me as a home brewer. It makes sense. If you pitch on foam and just leave it, some of the yeast won't be in the wort. I've read lots of posts where brewers have good success with it - just not optimum.

 

[SanJuanWorm]

Stirring the beer up a bit and resealing the lid seemed to kick start the fermentation ... So it was either a lack of oxygen or a bad sachet of yeast that had a lot of dead culture .... It took time for the yeast to replicate to a critical mass

I have found that dry yeast can take up to 36h to get moving, and many times even liquid yeast will take up to 48h before there is any action. I almost always add sugar to the recipe as well, and sometimes it take a bit.
Sounds like you've done everything correctly (aside from stirring after pitching ) and I'm sure it's going to turn out just fine.

Get that wort moving via stirring or shaking before you pitch your yeast, and you will have more than enough oxygen, but as said above, pitch and walk away.

Best of luck, and remember that yeasties are pretty tough, so even a bit of lukewarm water should not kill them off. Subscribed!

-M.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The basic procedure does refer to a conical fermenter (mainly commercial brewers, but also some home brewers). But the advice not to dry pitch on a foamy surface and leave it was an email message to me as a home brewer. It makes sense. If you pitch on foam and just leave it, some of the yeast won't be in the wort. I've read lots of posts where brewers have good success with it - just not optimum.

Can you document your current process for pitching dry yeast that gives you what you consider to be optimum results?

 

[ncbrewer]

Can you document your current process for pitching dry yeast that gives you what you consider to be optimum results?

I had planned to start dry pitching, but Fermentis (by email) advised me not to pitch on foam. Even stirring after pitching on foam was discouraged. So I'm still rehydrating.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So it appears that 1) sprinkling dry yeast on top of wort and 2) sprinkling dry yeast on top of foam are two different things.

For those interested in the "Fermentis (by email)" information, this is a recent link: Dry yeast cell counts

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Stirring the beer up a bit and resealing the lid seemed to kick start the fermentation ... So it was either a lack of oxygen or a bad sachet of yeast that had a lot of dead culture .... It took time for the yeast to replicate to a critical mass

No, it was neither of these, it was simply impatience. Dry yeast take time to hydrate, wake up and start fermenting. As already posted, your beer was already fermenting before you stirred (the blotches on top in your photo are yeast colonies) and would have been reaching high-krausen within a day or so after you took the photo without stirring. Stirring after fermentation has started might help increase activity, but is a really bad idea.

 

[AxelF]

Thanks for all your help.
It's really appreciated.
I have John Palmer's book "How to Brew" so I'm going to read up.
I've learned three things.

1. Don't stir / oxygenate the wort after pitching the yeast.
2. Don't sprinkle yeast on top of the foam when dry pitching.
3. Be prepared for 72h before expecting yeast to full activate and start chomping the sugars and producing C02.

I'm now building hackaday tilt-it digital hydrometer and brewpi setup and looking at better ways to track the temperatures.

 

[Alex4mula]

42 brews. Oxygenate with O2 wand 30-45sec. Pitch yeast (dry, wyeast,, Notinghsm, white labs, etc) and in 15 to 30 hrs I get krausen start. Most times around 20hrs.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

2. Don't sprinkle yeast on top of the foam when dry pitching.

Or maybe ask questions like

• "how much foam is 'too much' foam?",
• "what are the off-flavors that I may encounter by pitching onto foam?",
• "how fast does the yeast need to settle into the wort before off-flavors may be encountered?"

Assuming there are actual negative impacts to the beer when pitching on foam, is better to summarize it by saying:

1. YOU must fear the foam
2. you MUST fear the foam
3. you must FEAR the foam, or
4. you must fear THE FOAM

 

[ncbrewer]

I've learned three things.

1. Don't stir / oxygenate the wort after pitching the yeast.
2. Don't sprinkle yeast on top of the foam when dry pitching.
3. Be prepared for 72h before expecting yeast to full activate and start chomping the sugars and producing C02.

I first learned to dry pitch.
Then I learned rehydrating is much better.
Then I learned dry pitching is now just as good - maybe better.
Then I learned that for my situation, rehydrating is better.

You never stop learning.