No hop aroma and acidic/astringent taste...Help for future batches!!!

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nilswhite

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So I kegged my beer last night, and i took a couple samples early this morning and there was no
hop aroma and it had a acidic/astringent taste. Has a sharp note on the tongue but mellows out if
I let the glass sit for 10 minutes, but still has a sharp bitterness.

What baffles me is when I sampled it while racking to secondary....it was tasting great. I guess it all
went south after adding 4oz of columbus in secondary for dry-hopping. Could this be the problem? Was 4oz.
too much for a high alpha hop?


For water I used: 2/3 filtered tap water; and 1/3 RO water...with 5.2

Fermented around 68F-70F for 8 days in primary. There was no airlock activity on day 7. Took
readings and was stable for two days. Then to secondary for 4 days.


Could it be that I have hard water and is having an effect on my mash?
Beer is too green?


Just want to avoid this problem next time around. I'd appreciate the help.



Here is the recipe:

Dark IPA

Size: 5.5 gal

Original Gravity: 1.076
Terminal Gravity: 1.018

Ingredients:
14.0 lb 2-Row Brewers Malt
1.5 lb Crystal 75
0.7 lb Crystal 150
0.5 lb Black Malt
2.0 oz Chinook (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
2.0 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20.0 min
2.0 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
4.0 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
0.0 tsp Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min

Yeast: WLP001 in starter, pitched at high krausen




5.22 gal; Strike: 170.9 °F; Settled at 152 °F

Rest for 60 mins

4 gal; Batch Sparge: 180; Settled at 168
 
Remember, astringency is a mouthfeel, not a taste. Is it mouth puckering?

I see you sparged with 180 degree water? That could easily be the cause. You shouldn't sparge with over 168 degree water.

Overhopping is possible, but I would be more likely keyed in on the sparge temp you used.
 
I see you sparged with 180 degree water? That could easily be the cause. You shouldn't sparge with over 168 degree water.

Overhopping is possible, but I would be more likely keyed in on the sparge temp you used.

168-170f should be the grain bed temp, this has nothing to do with water temp. It is often necessary when batch sparging to go as high as 190-195F to get the grainbed up to 168.


_
 
168-170f should be the grain bed temp, this has nothing to do with water temp. It is often necessary when batch sparging to go as high as 190-195F to get the grainbed up to 168.


_

Guess I am confused by his post. I know that's how to acheive a mashout, but if he used that 180F water to sparge with then he easily could have cause problems.
 
Guess I am confused by his post. I know that's how to acheive a mashout, but if he used that 180F water to sparge with then he easily could have cause problems.

No it won't cause problems, especially if a mashout wasn't preformed. When you drain the wort out the grain bed temp will drop dramatically, it takes HOT water to bring it back up to the 168-170 range.

I have done many many batch sparges with my previous setup, I routinely used 190f water, my grain bed never went above 170f. You will never get off flavors from this method.

_
 
It's just green. It should come together fully in about 2 weeks. I've quickly force carbed my last several and it's gotten better up to 2 weeks, then stablized. trying a set & forget method with a mild now...

I do sparge that hot from time to time when I loose track of the heat on the sparge water, only had an astringency problem once and sparge was way hot at 195°.
 
No it won't cause problems, especially if a mashout wasn't preformed. When you drain the wort out the grain bed temp will drop dramatically, it takes HOT water to bring it back up to the 168-170 range.

I have done many many batch sparges with my previous setup, I routinely used 190f water, my grain bed never went above 170f. You will never get off flavors from this method.

_

mine was a fly sparge and mashed thick. I think the thick mash & lot's over hot sparge may have done it. I prefer to mash thinner than most almost to a batch sparge level, and fly sparge with a few gallons of hotter sparge water. trying my new 10 gallon mash tun with cpvc manifold using this method soon
 
It definitely sounds like a carbonic acid bite to me. You didn't by any chance set the regulator at 30 psi and shake the keg or something did you?

AHHH. My first carb & shake had that... needed a beer quick for a campout. That will be the last time I shake... I didn't like the results.

Side question. Does the Carbonic Acid bite fade? that keg didn't last long enough to tell :drunk: Several of us killed the keg in 4 days camping & fishing.
 
no one has said anything about fermentation temp yet...Is 68-70 ambient temp or wort temp? If ambient that could be to warm.
 
AHHH. My first carb & shake had that... needed a beer quick for a campout. That will be the last time I shake... I didn't like the results.

Side question. Does the Carbonic Acid bite fade? that keg didn't last long enough to tell :drunk: Several of us killed the keg in 4 days camping & fishing.

Yes, it fades once the co2 is fully absorbed into the beer. It might take a while, though. That's why I don't shake.

Quick carb and shake- beer tastes good in a week
Set in kegerator and carb at regular pressure- beer tastes good in a week without foam

I have a very strong feeling that is what is going on with this beer.
 
It definitely sounds like a carbonic acid bite to me. You didn't by any chance set the regulator at 30 psi and shake the keg or something did you?



Yep...I did use that method. Is there a solution?

But it was showing those flavors before I carb'ed it
 
Yep...I did use that method. Is there a solution?

But it was showing those flavors before I carb'ed it

If it had the flavors before you carbed it, then the carbonic acid isn't the problem. It may be that the columbus hops are too intense, and they would definitely be too much for me. A 1/2 ounce or so would be ok for dryhopping, 8 times that much might be overkill!

Also, black malt is harsh. Acrid, astrigent, biting harsh. That shall fade, but always be a bit "ashy".

If it WAS from quick carbing/shaking, it'll fade in a week or so.

If it's from the dryhopping, it'll fade quite a bit over a period of several weeks.
 
Yes, it fades once the co2 is fully absorbed into the beer. It might take a while, though. That's why I don't shake.

Quick carb and shake- beer tastes good in a week
Set in kegerator and carb at regular pressure- beer tastes good in a week without foam

I have a very strong feeling that is what is going on with this beer.

Great Call as always Yooper! You always come up with the great answer. (I'm pretty sure you answered my very first question here!) Good info always!

As for fermenting too warm... I'm in SC. some batches I'm glad to get that cool. I don't think an IPA would be out of the question at those ambient temps, just more fruity esters. (I guess I'm lucky I like that character in my ales)
 
Oh, one other thought, although I'm sure it's not the cause of this issue!

Get rid of the 5.2. I've been battling water chemistry issues for years, and over the last year I've been studying as much as I can about pH issues in the mash, and I've been convinced that the 5.2 isn't good for us. It may leave some salty taste in the beer, as well as not fix the pH issues anyway. If you're using a mix of tap water and RO, either get a water chemistry report for $16 or so, or go with all RO and just add a bit of calcium chloride to get great brewing water. Check this out: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/
 
Cool. I did miss it! give it some time to rest like yooper said for carbonic acid. If that doesn't cut it enough just let it age out more in the keg. Don't know how much dry hopping you've done but it does fade with time.

Mind if I borrow that recipe? sounds great! can you post it out in the recipe section with all the specs? I have a black IPA recipe I've been toying with, not brewed yet, but may combine some of yours & mine.
 
Yooper said:
Oh, one other thought, although I'm sure it's not the cause of this issue!

Get rid of the 5.2. I've been battling water chemistry issues for years, and over the last year I've been studying as much as I can about pH issues in the mash, and I've been convinced that the 5.2 isn't good for us. It may leave some salty taste in the beer, as well as not fix the pH issues anyway. If you're using a mix of tap water and RO, either get a water chemistry report for $16 or so, or go with all RO and just add a bit of calcium chloride to get great brewing water. Check this out: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

I'm not sure what to think of the 5.2 buffer. I have done 3 AG batches so far and have used it in every one of those beers. So far they have turned out fantastic. But I do hear a lot of people on here saying it sucks
 
I'm may have missed the style of beer you where going for... assumed IPA with hop schedule


Yes, it was a Dark IPA


Oh, one other thought, although I'm sure it's not the cause of this issue!

Get rid of the 5.2. I've been battling water chemistry issues for years, and over the last year I've been studying as much as I can about pH issues in the mash, and I've been convinced that the 5.2 isn't good for us. It may leave some salty taste in the beer, as well as not fix the pH issues anyway. If you're using a mix of tap water and RO, either get a water chemistry report for $16 or so, or go with all RO and just add a bit of calcium chloride to get great brewing water. Check this out: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/


Looks like I'll never do the shake method again!

I just came a cross a topic 20 mins ago stated the same thing about the 5.2.
Bummer too cause I just brewed a robust porter with 5.2...hopefully it'll come out OK

I think I'm going to switch to the RO route. So I would just add 1 tsp of calcium chloride and 2% of Sauermalz per 5 gallongs used? This will give an ideal pH?


Think my next batch will be Green Flash West Coast IPA.
 
No it won't cause problems, especially if a mashout wasn't preformed. When you drain the wort out the grain bed temp will drop dramatically, it takes HOT water to bring it back up to the 168-170 range.

I have done many many batch sparges with my previous setup, I routinely used 190f water, my grain bed never went above 170f. You will never get off flavors from this method.

_

I guess I misunderstood everything I've read, from Winning Homebrew:
There are many causes of process-related astringency: over-sparging, sparging with water above 168°F (76°C), steeping your grains too long, mash pH above the 5.2-5.6 range, over hopping, or boiling your grains can extract excessive tannins from the husks. Milling your grains too fine and poor hot-break removal resulting in too much trub may be sources of astringency as well.

I took that to mean, using water over 180. Learn something new every day.
 
I guess I misunderstood everything I've read, from Winning Homebrew:
There are many causes of process-related astringency: over-sparging, sparging with water above 168°F (76°C), steeping your grains too long, mash pH above the 5.2-5.6 range, over hopping, or boiling your grains can extract excessive tannins from the husks. Milling your grains too fine and poor hot-break removal resulting in too much trub may be sources of astringency as well.

I took that to mean, using water over 180. Learn something new every day.

Yeah, it's confusing because you hear that. You want to bring the grain bed temp to mash out temps, and if you add 168 degree water to a 152 degree grainbed you'll be lucky to hit 158. You don't want to have a high pH (over 6) during sparging but bringing the grainbed to 168 degrees is fine.

You CAN boil your grains, incidentally. It's not really important here, but of course in decoctions, grains are boiled all the time. Again, it's about pH and not temperature.
 
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