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No DME, what to make starter with?

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Jeepbrewer

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I plan to use some of my washed yeast that I have in a growler from a couple of batches ago. Problem is, I am out of DME. I usually use this method, but with dry yeast. This will be my first attempt to use the washed yeast process. Are there any alternative sources for the yeast for starters to use?
I am brewing the AHS AG Pliny clone with the White Labs 001, first time using White Labs for me too.
thanks, Bryan
 

ChshreCat

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Does the kit use DME? You could use some of the DME from the kit, then don't decant the starter. So long as the DME makes it into the wort, it's all the same really.

Malta Goya is another option if you can find that in the latino section of your grocery store.
 
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This is an all grain kit, right? If you have spare grains you can do what Gila said above.

If you don't, you can mash the grain from the kit, and after you get all of your runnings for the brew, sparge a little extra, boil it for 20 minutes, cool it, and dump in the yeast. Unfortunately, it will take a few hours for the yeast to ramp up, so you'll have to let your wort sit for a few hours before you can pitch. However, if you keep the wort sealed during this time it should be just fine.
 

wyzazz

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Did you say you usually make a starter for Dry Yeast? Dry yeast is already in it's optimal state when it's freeze-dried, just pitch another packet if you need more it's dirt cheap anyways.

As far as the starter for the wlp001 goes you can follow the above advice or you can pick up some US-05 from the LHBS, it's the same (chico) strain.
 

grove

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use table sugar: about 100g in 1L will get you the 1.040 wort you need. be sure and add some yeast nutrient. chill and decant before pitching if you are squeamish about adding fermented sugar-water to your wort (though isn't that what beer is anyway?). ignore the naysayers who will hoot/holler and fuss that your yeast will somehow develop a preference for sucrose--it's bs.
 

ChshreCat

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I'd highly recommend against that. You would be breeding your yeast to digest table sugar and they won't be able to make the enzymes required to break down maltose as well. So, you'd be pitching a weaker yeast and could have fermentation issues. Given the choice, I'd rather just pitch what you have without a starter and aerate really well before using a table sugar starter.
 

Beer_Guy

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Disclaimer: I have not tried it.

In another post on this, someone said use Grape Nuts cereal. It sounded good to me and I might try it next batch.
 

GilaMinumBeer

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ignore the naysayers who will hoot/holler and fuss that your yeast will somehow develop a preference for sucrose--it's bs.
Okay then, prove it. Because said "naysayers" are the likes of Palmer, Fix, Bamforth, Noonan, Daniels, Zaineshef, Hieronymous, Markowski, Mosher, Foster, Miller, Briggs, Boulton, Brooks, Stevens, Jantsen, Brooks, Stewart, and Hardwick.

Just to name a few.

All published and all conspiring to spread propoganda that sucrose alone does not make a good starter for beer fermentation.

But please, do prove them wrong.
 

Beer_Guy

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Think about it.

A cell eats a little nutrient and a little food. It wants to procreate. It splits. Using the supplied foods it has, the next cell will be able to use those same foods a little better. The new cell does this same thing. Now this continues for several generations with each new cell being able to use the foods that are available to it better than the previous.

To simplify the numbers lets start with 1000 cells into a starter of cane sugar.

1,000 = Malt eaters
2,000 = 1st split
4,000 = 2nd split
8,000
16,000
32,000
64,000
128,000
256,000
512,000 = last split
-----------
1,023,000 = Total cells
- 1,000 = Original Malt eaters
------------
1,022,000 = Slightly mutated non-malt eaters

By the time they you get to 1,023,000 cells, only the first 1000 are 1st generation malt eaters and the rest mutate to like cane sugar a little bit more each split.

You pitch that into your wort and those 1,022,000 suddenly get a whole new food source.

Best case, you have a little more lag time.
Worst case, you get a totally different tasting beer.

The purpose of a starter is to raise a nice crop of yeasties that are ready and eager to chow down on your wort.

Simple logic says use wort, not sugar, not honey.
 

bja

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Best case, you have a little more lag time.
Worst case, you get a totally different tasting beer.

Simple logic says use wort, not sugar, not honey.
Simple logic also says that evolution doesn't happen that fast.
 

a10t2

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The issue isn't actually mutation. The commercial yeast cultures we're using are very pure in terms of containing only haploid cells, and even if they weren't, there wouldn't be enough generations for mutation to be a concern.

What *is* a concern is conditioning of the existing population for simple sugars. Since eating monosaccharides is a less energy-intensive metabolic pathway, yeast can develop a "preference" for it, and then go dormant once the simple sugars are no longer available. To what extent that would actually happen in wort probably depends on the strain and any number of other factors.
 

Reelale

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what about those so-called petite mutants? IIRC those can occur within a single generation.
 
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Jeepbrewer

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Thanks folks for the good info and ideas. Options:
1-I will try to use some grain to make a starter from what came in the Pliny kit.
2-Or I have an extra packet of Nottingham to pitch also, which was the dry yeast option and save the washed yeast when I have DME.
3-I have 3/4Lb of Carared with the Notty pack. Not sure if will convert any fermentables.

Also I used the dry yeast with DME to make a starter, not a starter for dry yeast. This will be my 4th AG batch, and it is always a learning process.
thanks again
 

ChshreCat

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Also I used the dry yeast with DME to make a starter, not a starter for dry yeast. This will be my 4th AG batch, and it is always a learning process.
thanks again
Not sure what you're saying there. Either way it sounds like you're making a starter with dry yeast which is unnecessary.
 

Reelale

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Pitch the notty directly, no starters for dry yeast. Save your liquid for next batch.
 

a10t2

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what about those so-called petite mutants? IIRC those can occur within a single generation.
Well, all mutations occur within a single generation, by definition. If you mean the level goes from zero to something detectable in a single generation, I don't know for sure. I think they're always present to some extent but at low levels as long as the population as a whole isn't stressed.

So they're sort of the exception that proves the rule, IMHO. They're the result of a single point mutation on the mitochondrial DNA, so they should represent the absolute worst-case scenario. Even then, the number in an otherwise healthy culture is always less than 1% IIRC (according to Fix).
 
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Jeepbrewer

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Not sure what you're saying there. Either way it sounds like you're making a starter with dry yeast which is unnecessary.

I have been doing this for about 10 of my 20 batches and works well. How else do you do it?
I use a growler or jar
1 cup DME
pint of water(boiled and cooled)
a pack of dry yeast
swirl and 12hrs later I have a starter. Worked so well I blew the bung off my carboy on my last batch. Please tell me if this is wrong.
 

wyzazz

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I have been doing this for about 10 of my 20 batches and works well. How else do you do it?
I use a growler or jar
1 cup DME
pint of water(boiled and cooled)
a pack of dry yeast
swirl and 12hrs later I have a starter. Worked so well I blew the bung off my carboy on my last batch. Please tell me if this is wrong.
It's wrong and here's why: Dry yeast is already in the MOST OPTIMAL CONDITION to pitch directly in to your wort, the cell count in those packages is crazy! If you need more dry yeast than you have in that one packet then pitch a second, dry yeast is pretty cheap and in most cases cheaper than making a starter.

An 11.5g packet of Safale contains enough healthy yeast for 5 gallons of ~1.060 wort. Anything above that and you should probably pick up another packet.
 

GilaMinumBeer

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the SAFEST approach to dry yeast is to hydrate in distilled water. Prefereably boild and cooled but...

The REASON for this is that the cell wall is non-preferential to ions in the liquid as it rehydrates. No matter because the packagers have included the proper combination and quantities of nutrient for the yeast to be all it can be.

In wort the cell walls allow saccharides into the cell before it is able to metabolize them and that can cause stress as well as increased mutations.
 

ChshreCat

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And if you need a higher yeast count, a second packet of dry yeast costs less than the DME needed to make a starter.
 

devilishprune

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What *is* a concern is conditioning of the existing population for simple sugars. Since eating monosaccharides is a less energy-intensive metabolic pathway, yeast can develop a "preference" for it, and then go dormant once the simple sugars are no longer available. To what extent that would actually happen in wort probably depends on the strain and any number of other factors.

Not saying that you should make a sucrose starter, just saying that both sucrose and maltose are disaccharides. So in essence, they're both "simple" sugars. A "complex" sugar would be something more like cellulose or starches.
 

Beer_Guy

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The issue isn't actually mutation. The commercial yeast cultures we're using are very pure in terms of containing only haploid cells, and even if they weren't, there wouldn't be enough generations for mutation to be a concern.
…
Agreed, since a single starter only doubles the cell count. (At least according to the Mr Malty pitching calculator page.) But, if you do your starter with cane sugar from the trub of a previous brew that you started with cane sugar, you are going to change the yeast a little each time. Do it enough and the yeast will change.

…
What *is* a concern is conditioning of the existing population for simple sugars. Since eating monosaccharides is a less energy-intensive metabolic pathway, yeast can develop a "preference" for it, and then go dormant once the simple sugars are no longer available. To what extent that would actually happen in wort probably depends on the strain and any number of other factors.
Good point and another reason to use wort starters. (Ok, maybe not just another reason, but the biggest and MAIN reason.)

What it boils done to is to be nice to the yeasties. After all, they give us BEER.:mug:
 

bassmosphere

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I'd highly recommend against that. You would be breeding your yeast to digest table sugar and they won't be able to make the enzymes required to break down maltose as well. So, you'd be pitching a weaker yeast and could have fermentation issues. Given the choice, I'd rather just pitch what you have without a starter and aerate really well before using a table sugar starter.
I've heard this a lot within the brewing community, but from an evolutionary standpoint it seems like yeast would want to eat all the sugars available. Has there been any experiments performed using different kinds of yeast starters and the same type of wort?
 

bassmosphere

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But, if you do your starter with cane sugar from the trub of a previous brew that you started with cane sugar, you are going to change the yeast a little each time. Do it enough and the yeast will change.
This makes sense to me, because the yeast adapts to the food source that is available. It just doesn't seem like making a starter with corn sugar or similar then pitching 8-24 hours later would really have a big impact on the yeast.
 

Beer_Guy

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This makes sense to me, because the yeast adapts to the food source that is available. It just doesn't seem like making a starter with corn sugar or similar then pitching 8-24 hours later would really have a big impact on the yeast.
You said it. The key work there is “big”. I’m not saying you will get swill or really bad beer. Just that it WILL have an impact. Maybe slight, but an impact. I am not going to risk a $25-$50 batch by saving a few cents on starter content. I want to brew the same brew that the recipe calls for and ANY change might be disappointing.
 

a10t2

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Not saying that you should make a sucrose starter, just saying that both sucrose and maltose are disaccharides. So in essence, they're both "simple" sugars. A "complex" sugar would be something more like cellulose or starches.
D'oh! Thanks for the catch; for some reason I always get sucrose and fructose mixed up. So replace "monosaccharides" with "disaccharides". ;)
 

peoplesbrewingcoop

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I plan to use some of my washed yeast that I have in a growler from a couple of batches ago. Problem is, I am out of DME. I usually use this method, but with dry yeast. This will be my first attempt to use the washed yeast process. Are there any alternative sources for the yeast for starters to use?
I am brewing the AHS AG Pliny clone with the White Labs 001, first time using White Labs for me too.
thanks, Bryan

Here is a growth media for yeast grown in the lab. You might be able to find similar commercial sources. These commercial examples are only a guess. I have not tired them. I would think that the commercial examples are too salty to use effectively to get volumes needed for pitching. It would probably be easier just to buy some DME.

YPD Medium (an enriched, non-selective yeast growth medium)

1. 10 g yeast extract (marmite [maybe?] or left over yeast cake)

2. 20 g Protease Peptone (maybe use some miso paste derived from soybeans)
3. 20 g glucose (dextrose, GNC or other food stores)
4. Adjust final volume to 1 liter with distilled water
5. autoclave 30-45 minutes (or use a pressure cooker)
 
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