Finally setting up my stout tap. I have my stout carbonated on CO2. I'll be pushing with straight Nitrogen. I figure I'll go for about 22 PSI (40F). What sort of line length should I be shooting for when using the nitrogen on a stout tap?
Nitrogen stout tap line length?
- Thread starter fuzzybee
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I do not think line length matters with nitrogen. The restricter disk is knocking the co2 out of solution.
Yep - I carbonated for 3 weeks and I'll just push with nitrogen.
The line length matters - you don't want to fill a Guinness in 5 seconds.
So far, 12 feet isn't enough. I'm going to see Ed @ BMW to pick up a 20' piece of tubing. Hopefully that will behave better.
The line length matters - you don't want to fill a Guinness in 5 seconds.
So far, 12 feet isn't enough. I'm going to see Ed @ BMW to pick up a 20' piece of tubing. Hopefully that will behave better.
I got up and running with about 6' of 3/16" tubing. Beer gas mix (75N/25CO2) at 25psi is giving a pretty good head. I forced carbed with CO2 first, may have gone over.
My recipe ain't spot on, but definitely got the Guinness pour :rockin:
My recipe ain't spot on, but definitely got the Guinness pour :rockin:
How long does it take to fill a pint?
I have 6' lines, 30 psi, at 36*F and it take about 10 seconds to pour a pint. You can carb the beer in about 6 hours under high CO2 pressure if you're willing to sit down and drink a beer every hour (assuming the beer is already cold).
When done, I depressurize the keg and pressurize it to 4-6 psi with CO2 before putting it under 30PSI of nitrogen. i repeat this process every week or two to maintain carbonation--to be honest though, I haven't tested to see if the nitrogen displaces any CO2 and I doubt it does, the beer should maintain CO2 carbonation under pure nitrogen.
fuzzybee. If you're simply looking to slow down the pour then a 20' line will certainly help that and you're going about it the right way. Personally, I don't think it makes any difference... 10 seconds is a reasonable pour time, and it takes a couple minutes for everything to settle out...
However, if you're having issues with the head of the beer then you're likely over-carbonating the beer in the 3 weeks it sits there. Under what pressure do you force carb your beer? at 40*F it should be sitting at 5psi... which runs you into the issue that a corny might not seal and will leak gas out (takes 10 psi to properly seal a corny... I think... someone second that?), which is why I force carb under high pressure and keep an eye on it till it's got the perfect head... which is actually quite an enjoyable experience!
I use this for reference:
http://hbd.org/brewniversity/foodscience/forcecarbonation.shtml
When done, I depressurize the keg and pressurize it to 4-6 psi with CO2 before putting it under 30PSI of nitrogen. i repeat this process every week or two to maintain carbonation--to be honest though, I haven't tested to see if the nitrogen displaces any CO2 and I doubt it does, the beer should maintain CO2 carbonation under pure nitrogen.
fuzzybee. If you're simply looking to slow down the pour then a 20' line will certainly help that and you're going about it the right way. Personally, I don't think it makes any difference... 10 seconds is a reasonable pour time, and it takes a couple minutes for everything to settle out...
However, if you're having issues with the head of the beer then you're likely over-carbonating the beer in the 3 weeks it sits there. Under what pressure do you force carb your beer? at 40*F it should be sitting at 5psi... which runs you into the issue that a corny might not seal and will leak gas out (takes 10 psi to properly seal a corny... I think... someone second that?), which is why I force carb under high pressure and keep an eye on it till it's got the perfect head... which is actually quite an enjoyable experience!
I use this for reference:
http://hbd.org/brewniversity/foodscience/forcecarbonation.shtml
It's possible that it's over-carbed, but it shouldn't be too bad. I had it @ 6PSI in the fridge.
What's happening for me is I only get the "waterfall" effect for a couple of seconds after the pour. In addition, I have about a 1-1.5" head - which does stay around. My pour is about 5 seconds.
On the other hand, I wonder if the oatmeal in it is causing some funkiness. I need to research that as well.
What's happening for me is I only get the "waterfall" effect for a couple of seconds after the pour. In addition, I have about a 1-1.5" head - which does stay around. My pour is about 5 seconds.
On the other hand, I wonder if the oatmeal in it is causing some funkiness. I need to research that as well.
I used 9' of 3/16" line when I was running my stout tap. I think I had it around 25-30 psi. The rate of pour was fine.
... and, apparently the point is moot, because I have a leak in either my gas line or my keg. 23CF of N2 is gone 
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
I'm on my first keg using my new nitro/stout tap so I don't quite have it dialed in either (but I still LOVE this thing). I'm using 75:25 beer gas and 10' of 3/16" line @ about 39* F. It seems that if I run it at a lower pressure (say 25 psi) then I don't get the waterfall effect but if I run it near 35-38 psi I do get it...but still not quite as good as I'd like it. The head is a little too big and not quite as thick or meringue-like as it should be. I need to ask the guys at some of the good beer bars around here how they run theirs.
hrmp. Both to fuzzybee and SpanishCastleAle. I would say to check the restictor plate, makes sure the o-ring is in there and everything is sealed tight in the tap & nozzle. Sounds like beer isn't going through the restrictor plate and the CO2 isn't being knocked out.
There should be the waterfall effect even with under or over carbed beer. Under carbed beer will settle fairly quickly and give little to no head. It should be pretty obvious if it's over carbed as you basically get a glass full of foam, takes forever for the beer to settle out, then you have maybe half a beer and a lot of head!
There should be the waterfall effect even with under or over carbed beer. Under carbed beer will settle fairly quickly and give little to no head. It should be pretty obvious if it's over carbed as you basically get a glass full of foam, takes forever for the beer to settle out, then you have maybe half a beer and a lot of head!
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Thanks JustDandy.
When I first pour it is ALL foam so CO2 is definitely getting knocked out. But it only takes a minute or so before it's pretty much settled down to mostly beer with a nice healthy head, then I do the final pour and the process repeats except the final head isn't really any bigger than the original head.
Glad you mentioned the o-ring: When I first hooked my stout tap up I didn't have beer gas so I removed the restrictor plate and nozzle (when I say nozzle I mean the little piece that butts up against the restrictor plate inside the spout)...but there was an 'extra' o-ring in there too. That is, there were two identical o-rings inside the spout assembly and I only need one of them to seal the spout to the housing. The o-ring is too big to go down inside the spout, so unless it is a spare I have no idea what this o-ring is for. But I did reinstall the restrictor and nozzle. This is a Micromatic Stout tap FWIW.
EDIT: Maybe I should make a video of a pour? Would that help?
heh. Found a nifty diagram when I looked up the faucet:
http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/taps-faucets-pid-JESF-4.html
I'm surprised by the two o-rings, but they are in fact in the diagram. Both may be needed to properly seal everything.
post a video of your pour; I enjoy a good video =)
http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/taps-faucets-pid-JESF-4.html
I'm surprised by the two o-rings, but they are in fact in the diagram. Both may be needed to properly seal everything.
post a video of your pour; I enjoy a good video =)
IIRC, I only had one o-ring, and no flow straightener.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Yea, I studied that drawing for a while before I finally came to the conclusion that it wasn't helping much (I should have mentioned this), but thanks for posting it. You'd think if 2 were required it would say '2 req' or something.
I've tried installing the second o-ring and it's just not right with it (I'm very familiar with what an o-ring seal looks like since I've worked with them for years at my job), but it actually works (i.e. seals) the same either way. There's only room for one o-ring at the shoulder there, the second one just gets squeezed out of the gap as you tighten the spout.
I'll see about posting a video, I've never posted a video before, hopefully photobucket is simple enough that I can do it.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
OK, the 2 o-ring issue was bugging me so I called Micromatic. They seemed to be a bit confused and said they would pull one off the shelf, disassemble it, and call me back. They called back and said only one o-ring was required. They said it had to do with different suppliers or manufacturers or something and that they were not aware and needed to change that diagram. Their story doesn't really all 'add up' to me but the bottom line is, only one o-ring is required there and it is to seal the spout to the housing.
Wish I could add more for ya, but I own a different tap, here are a few resources:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/force-carbing-nitrogen-74948/
http://www.northernbrewer.com/docs (There is a "Nirto Keg System" doc)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/force-carbing-nitrogen-74948/
http://www.northernbrewer.com/docs (There is a "Nirto Keg System" doc)
I can add some info on how I got mine going actually:
I have a CO2 system and a beer gas (75/25) system in the same keezer. To start i disconnect all my other kegs from CO2, hooked up the CO2 only to the stout keg at ~40psi (probably too high, just watch it closely), then out of same keg to stout faucet. I poured a glass every so often until i got a nice cascading head (yes, with only CO2 and the stout tap) Once the head was nearly right (meaning the stout was force carbed enough), i disconnected the CO2, hooked the beer gas up at ~25psi and I have been drinking beautiful "Guinness" ever since, in fact it pour better each time (maybe because the beer was brewed about a month ago, so it's still aging nicely, maybe just co2 levels adjusting themselves, maybe some nitrogen dissolving)
I of course dialed back the CO2 regulator to it's "normal beer" 12psi and hooked my other kegs back up when I was done.
YMMV, these are the numbers and situations that worked for my system, though I would say I have a pretty standard system. FWIW this is the first beer I've poured though my new nitro, so i speak from some research and very little experience. Real exact info on Nitrogen faucets is apparently hard to come by, so I'll share what i learn as I put more beers through this faucet.
I have a CO2 system and a beer gas (75/25) system in the same keezer. To start i disconnect all my other kegs from CO2, hooked up the CO2 only to the stout keg at ~40psi (probably too high, just watch it closely), then out of same keg to stout faucet. I poured a glass every so often until i got a nice cascading head (yes, with only CO2 and the stout tap) Once the head was nearly right (meaning the stout was force carbed enough), i disconnected the CO2, hooked the beer gas up at ~25psi and I have been drinking beautiful "Guinness" ever since, in fact it pour better each time (maybe because the beer was brewed about a month ago, so it's still aging nicely, maybe just co2 levels adjusting themselves, maybe some nitrogen dissolving)
I of course dialed back the CO2 regulator to it's "normal beer" 12psi and hooked my other kegs back up when I was done.
YMMV, these are the numbers and situations that worked for my system, though I would say I have a pretty standard system. FWIW this is the first beer I've poured though my new nitro, so i speak from some research and very little experience. Real exact info on Nitrogen faucets is apparently hard to come by, so I'll share what i learn as I put more beers through this faucet.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Thanks Eric but just for kicks I looked at their regular CO2 'Deluxe Fridge Conversion Kit' and they recommend 5' of 3/16" line...and to serve at 3-5 psig.
IMO, that's terrible advice so I'm not sure how much stock I can put in their Stout faucet advice.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Yep, I haven't found much definitive info either. I'll do the same.
Thanks Eric but just for kicks I looked at their regular CO2 'Deluxe Fridge Conversion Kit' and they recommend 5' of 3/16" line...and to serve at 3-5 psig.
IMO, that's terrible advice so I'm not sure how much stock I can put in their Stout faucet advice.
Wow, yeah... maybe someone had one to many before writing that pdf? They are not the only place I've heard blanketly recommend 5' (or 6'), and once i hear bad advice i throw out the rest of what they say too. (Not to say recommending 5' is bad, it will usually work or close enough, but that advice needs to include at least a warning that the true ideal length is determined by a number of factors...) And 3-5 psi?? just yikes.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
One thing it did say that agrees with my extremely limited experience is that if the pressure is not high enough, it doesn't cascade/waterfall like it should. If I take the exact same beer and serve it through my stout tap at 25 psi I get virtually zero waterfall but if I crank the pressure up I get some waterfall.
zazbnf
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I believe the number on the restrictor plate indicates the proper pressure for that plate @38 degrees(can't remember where that info came from it was ages ago). My Guinness tap restrictor plate has the number 35 on it.
When I was running the premixed 75/25 beer gas I would force carb with the mixed beer gas at 35psi for 7 days then dispense at same pressure through 5 feet of 3/16 beer line. Always had a perfect pour.
When I was running the premixed 75/25 beer gas I would force carb with the mixed beer gas at 35psi for 7 days then dispense at same pressure through 5 feet of 3/16 beer line. Always had a perfect pour.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Good info zazbnf, thanks. In that case it sounds as if that number on the restrictor plate is for ~5' of 3/16" line. More line means less pressure at the restrictor plate and that number has to be based on some chosen line length. I just checked mine and it reads '30' but I'm using 10' of line so that explains why I had to run it higher than that.
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