Newbie with questions about spunding

[minorhero]

Hello folks!

I am very new to brewing (getting ready to taste my first beer tonight - an english brown ale from an extract kit). I've spent the last month researching better methods for making beer and I've settled on going with a BIAB all grain for my next beer. My wife bought me a ukeg for my birthday so this beer was a mix of bottles and using the ukeg (a 1 gallon keg that uses disposable co2 cartridges). I instantly decided that kegs are the way to go with the caveat that I will be doing small batches (1 to 2 gallons) only.

Reading into it both here and elsewhere on the internet it seems that using a spunding valve for natural carbination is really easy. As of right now I am planning to use a jug for primary fermentation for 2 or 3 days (until the krausen goes down) then using a siphon rack it into the keg, attach the spunding valve, set it to 30 psi and leave it alone for a week or 2 (until it stops hissing) and then put it in my fridge. Leave it for another few days and serve.

My question is really basic but seems hard to find the answer to. In this situation the keg is at 30 psi when finished. Do I need to hook up any additional co2 to force the beer out of the tap to serve during the life of the keg or will that 30 psi need to be supplemented with additional co2 later in the life of the keg to get everything out?

Thank you for any help!

 

[Bassman2003]

As you draw off of the spunded keg, the pressure will go down with every pour. To keep the level of carbonation consistent, you would need to balance CO2 from a tank and serve it at that pressure. So in your case, hook up the bottled CO2 at whatever it settles at when down at fridge temperatures. 30psi at room temp will wind up being about 16 PSI at fridge temps. So your bottled CO2 would be set to 16 PSI. This will eventually replace the natural CO2 with bottled, but that is the best we can do as homebrewers for the most part.

 

[minorhero]

As you draw off of the spunded keg, the pressure will go down with every pour. To keep the level of carbonation consistent, you would need to balance CO2 from a tank and serve it at that pressure. So in your case, hook up the bottled CO2 at whatever it settles at when down at fridge temperatures. 30psi at room temp will wind up being about 16 PSI at fridge temps. So your bottled CO2 would be set to 16 PSI. This will eventually replace the natural CO2 with bottled, but that is the best we can do as homebrewers for the most part.

Thank you! This is exactly the information I needed!

 

[DuncB]

@minorhero
You are on the right track but possibly could run into problems.

Spunding is essential to allow you to get the correct volumes of CO2 in your beer ( the correct amount of fizz). Warmer beer needs higher pressure to get the correct amount of CO2 in the beer ( it always balances in the beer and out of the beer ). But CO2 less soluble at higher temps.
I wouldn't go with pressure from the off for an English ale as the pressure ferment does squash the yeast expression.

Firstly use this calculator
Beer Carbonation Calculator

inputting the temp, beer style and it will tell you what psi to set your spund to and so get correct carbonation. You will see that if fermenting at 25.5 celsius ( quite warm ) need 30 psi for 2.3 vols CO2.

Then adjust the temp to fridge temp say 5 celsius that pressure drops to 10.59 psi.
No gas needs to be let out as the high pressure above dissolves into the liquid.

However you mention 16 psi which is quite high at 5 celsius and if at that pressure and temp your beer would be carbonated to 2.8 vols at that temp which might be a bit high. Might not though as you might want beer that fizzy.
But you are drinking English brown ale so if that is served at 12 celsius and 2.2 vols CO2 then 16 psi is bang on.

Your next issue is you need to get that beer out of the keg into your glass, use this calculator
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/
assuming you have 4mm internal beer line 1.009 gravity and say 1.5 foot from keg to tap and your 16 psi you will need 20 foot of beer line .
If you used 1/4 inch beer line then 176 foot.

If you don't follow the tube rules you will end up just pouring a glass of foam and then when that settles you'll have flat beer.

So yes you will be able to get the beer out of your keg without supplementary CO2 with your plan, but the first beer will be all foam unless tube correct and likely the last beer as the pressure drops will be flat or perfect.

I would recommend spunding to the vols you want to serve at and then get your beer line correct and think about some supplementary CO2 to supply at the previously decided pressure so as beer leaves the keg it is replaced by CO2 from outside.

CO2 will either need to come from a cylinder of some type or another pressure ferment with a spund set to the pressure you want your beer at. The second option is a little fiddly but doable as a greening your brewing exercise.

Further option as you are drinking an English brown ale would be a beer engine.

 

[Jim R]

If I was going to keg I would spend the money on a CO2 tank and a good regulator instead of a spunding valve. Then next I would save up for a keg that will hold the full batch and save the hassle of bottling all together.

I look at my spunding valve as a tool that allows me to do pressure fermentations with a pressure capable fermenter. I don't really consider it a tool to achieve carbonation although that is a secondary benefit but only before you start serving from the keg. Then you need CO2 tank and accurate regulator to achieve perfect and consistent carbonation levels.

 

[minorhero]

@minorhero
You are on the right track but possibly could run into problems.

Spunding is essential to allow you to get the correct volumes of CO2 in your beer ( the correct amount of fizz). Warmer beer needs higher pressure to get the correct amount of CO2 in the beer ( it always balances in the beer and out of the beer ). But CO2 less soluble at higher temps.
I wouldn't go with pressure from the off for an English ale as the pressure ferment does squash the yeast expression.

Firstly use this calculator
Beer Carbonation Calculator

inputting the temp, beer style and it will tell you what psi to set your spund to and so get correct carbonation. You will see that if fermenting at 25.5 celsius ( quite warm ) need 30 psi for 2.3 vols CO2.

Then adjust the temp to fridge temp say 5 celsius that pressure drops to 10.59 psi.
No gas needs to be let out as the high pressure above dissolves into the liquid.

However you mention 16 psi which is quite high at 5 celsius and if at that pressure and temp your beer would be carbonated to 2.8 vols at that temp which might be a bit high. Might not though as you might want beer that fizzy.
But you are drinking English brown ale so if that is served at 12 celsius and 2.2 vols CO2 then 16 psi is bang on.

Your next issue is you need to get that beer out of the keg into your glass, use this calculator
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/
assuming you have 4mm internal beer line 1.009 gravity and say 1.5 foot from keg to tap and your 16 psi you will need 20 foot of beer line .
If you used 1/4 inch beer line then 176 foot.

If you don't follow the tube rules you will end up just pouring a glass of foam and then when that settles you'll have flat beer.

So yes you will be able to get the beer out of your keg without supplementary CO2 with your plan, but the first beer will be all foam unless tube correct and likely the last beer as the pressure drops will be flat or perfect.

I would recommend spunding to the vols you want to serve at and then get your beer line correct and think about some supplementary CO2 to supply at the previously decided pressure so as beer leaves the keg it is replaced by CO2 from outside.

CO2 will either need to come from a cylinder of some type or another pressure ferment with a spund set to the pressure you want your beer at. The second option is a little fiddly but doable as a greening your brewing exercise.

Further option as you are drinking an English brown ale would be a beer engine.

Thank you! This is a lot of good information. I was planning to serve directly from the mini keg. Basically the advantage being that 1) I don't want big batches anyway, and 2) the mini kegs are small enough I can put them in my basement fridge and still use that fridge as I am now (as storage for food overflow from my main fridge).

Also I probably won't make another english brown ale for a while. English brown ale was my first beer but I like a lot of variety so I will probably try new beer recipes each time I brew.

Since I plan to serve directly from the mini keg do I still need a specific length of tubing? If I do is there an easy way around it (different carbonation levels or something)?

If I was going to keg I would spend the money on a CO2 tank and a good regulator instead of a spunding valve. Then next I would save up for a keg that will hold the full batch and save the hassle of bottling all together.

I look at my spunding valve as a tool that allows me to do pressure fermentations with a pressure capable fermenter. I don't really consider it a tool to achieve carbonation although that is a secondary benefit but only before you start serving from the keg. Then you need CO2 tank and accurate regulator to achieve perfect and consistent carbonation levels.

Yes as soon as I learned I couldn't get by only with a spunding valve I purchased a mini regulator and co2 cartridges. I know this is not as ideal as a proper 5lb+ co2 tank and regulator but I need it to fit easily in a fridge that is still be used for food. I do planted aquariums as a hobby already so I am pretty familiar with co2 tanks and already own a 10lb tank, but its not in the same room as the fridge so running a line over is not really viable. Thus mini regulator and cartridges to sustain carbonation when my spunding runs out of juice.

 

[ThenFalcon]

Yes as soon as I learned I couldn't get by only with a spunding valve I purchased a mini regulator and co2 cartridges. I know this is not as ideal as a proper 5lb+ co2 tank and regulator but I need it to fit easily in a fridge that is still be used for food.

A paintball or sodastream tank would be more economical than cartridges for the long term. You should be able to get an adapter for either to attach the mini regulator.

 

[Brews and Blues]

I spunded my last batch and my beer has been pouring strong and carbonated for weeks now without a touch of co2. I had no idea what i was doing, so it might have been dumb luck, but I loved it. I will be brewing again within the next few weeks so in a month or so i will let you know how batch 2 goes.

 

[minorhero]

I spunded my last batch and my beer has been pouring strong and carbonated for weeks now without a touch of co2. I had no idea what i was doing, so it might have been dumb luck, but I loved it. I will be brewing again within the next few weeks so in a month or so i will let you know how batch 2 goes.

Awesome! This is very encouraging. What type of beer and what pressure did you set your valve to?

 

[Brews and Blues]

I made a black IPA. Spunded in my corney keg after day 7 at around 20psi. I thought that was going to be too little, but it ended up being great. When I was asking some questions on this forum, alot of people recommended around 30psi. Again, i think i hit some dumb luck on this one. But I hope not and maybe i actually know what I'm doing

 

[Bassman2003]

To give some reference, I often spund to 25 PSI @ 65F. This winds up being about 14-15 PSI at service temps (2.4 - 2.5 volumes). Fairly carbonated.