Newbie with a bunch of questions (please be gentle!)

[user 85937]

Hey all,
Newbie here, pleased to make your acquaintance.

My friends and I decided to give a try at making our own hard cider after seeing this article on the Wired How-To Wiki. We followed the instructions, pretty well, except we were cheap and only bought a primary bucket for our first try, no secondary.

That batch was in primary fermentation for 9 days at 72 degrees, before I killed the yeast using 3 tablespoons of potassium metabisulfite and added a spice infusion: cinnamon (10 sticks), cloves (whole, ~60), honey (1 cup), brown sugar (1 cup), 3 lemon slices, simmered for 20 minutes in water and then added, and allowed to sit for 7 days. Final result was "interesting" and drinkable, but the spices and apple flavor were vastly overpowered by a strong yeasty flavor.

Second batch went into the primary this past Sunday; 6 gallons of apple juice (not from concentrate, only additive is ascorbic acid), with one half gallon being used to create a spice starter , and a package of liquid "cider" yeast.

Plan is to have primary fermentation for 14 days at 72 degrees, rack to secondary, add honey and brown sugar, kill the yeast with metabisuifite, and allow to sit, settle and the flavors mingle for one week, then bottle. Intent is to go for something dry, with a sweet and spicy undertone.

Spice Starter for second batch:
cinnamon sticks (10)
whole cloves (~60)
1 sliced lemon
diced orange peel (1 fruit's worth)
allspice (~20 berries)
ground ginger root (2 tablespoons)
honey (1/4 cup)
brown sugar (1/4 cup)
simmered in 1/2 gallon apple juice

So, first question: Is there any practical way of "de-yeasting" our first batch? It's drinkable, but that yeasty flavor is very strong. I noticed at the homebrew store that Glycerin helps age and smooth young wines; would that work on cider?

Second question: any thoughts or advice on the possible outcome on the second batch? We were told that liquid yeast takes longer than the dry yeast we used for the first batch, but that it wouldn't be as harsh a yeasty flavor when it was done.

Third question: looking to the future, I saw that there's a bunch of fruit-flavorings for beer at the homebrew shop, for use after primary fermentation. Do those work for cider? And I have a bunch of Torani syrups (the coffee-flavoring syrups you see at coffee shops, legacy of having alot of spare meal plan money at the end of a college year) laying around my apartment. Could I use the raspberry or hazelnut syrup to flavor a batch?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Nateo]

Is there any practical way of "de-yeasting" our first batch? It's drinkable, but that yeasty flavor is very strong. I noticed at the homebrew store that Glycerin helps age and smooth young wines; would that work on cider?

Time and cold temps will make the yeast fall out of suspension, if it's truly yeast in suspension that are making those flavors. Glycerin will help clear yeast also.

Second question: any thoughts or advice on the possible outcome on the second batch? We were told that liquid yeast takes longer than the dry yeast we used for the first batch, but that it wouldn't be as harsh a yeasty flavor when it was done.

The time the batch takes to ferment and harsh flavors are loosely related. Faster ferment = more yeast activity = more heat, and more heat = harsh flavors. I use a lot of dried and liquid yeasts. When handled properly, the only differences between dried and liquid yeasts are the inherent strain differences, with nothing to do with the packaging.

Third question: looking to the future, I saw that there's a bunch of fruit-flavorings for beer at the homebrew shop, for use after primary fermentation. Do those work for cider?

I've never tried flavoring with syrups because I think all of those syrups taste pretty gross and fake. I would guess they'd work fine, if they're the kind of flavor you like.

 

[TopherM]

I think you are making this way more complicated than it needs to be with all of the additives and such. Making hard cider is VERY simple.

Do you not want carbonation? I make very good cider without ever killing the yeast. Also, why are you intent on adding spices? Is there a commercial style you are trying to copy? Just plain apple juice and yeast will make great cider.

I primary for about 3 weeks with champagne yeast. Cider yeast is designed to not fully attenuate and leave some sweetness, but I'd rather ferment dry with the champagne yeast then backsweeten. I don't secondary cider. I backsweeten with about 1/2 gallon of sweet juice per 5 gallons in my bottling bucket, then bottle/keg. After about 2-2.5 weeks at room temp to carbonate (I force carb if in the keg), I put everything in the fridge or kegorator to cold crash and condition. During this time, the yeast fall out of suspension. If I bottle, then I am careful to not pour the last 1/2" or so of the bottle, as that's where the yeast flavor comes from. If I keg, then I just pour out the first pint, as that one is pretty much all the yeast.

Anyway, I condition for at least 3 weeks. I have found that the cider is drinkable after three weeks of conditioning, but the longer you let it sit, the better it is going to be. Ciders seem to peak at about 4-6 months after bottling/kegging.

Hope that helps. I don't know exactly what you are expecting without carbonating it. Uncarbonated hard cider doesn't sound good to me no matter how you spice it. Also, if you want a spiced hard cider, just start with spiced cider from you local whole foods store, and everything will be in good proportion.

Finally, note that there is a cider forum toward the bottom of the listing. I learned everything I know from there, so I'd recommend you read through that and ask some questions there before your next batch.

Hope that helps!

 

[unionrdr]

Look at what he said,he KILLED THE YEAST! You're not making wine,brewers do not kill the yeast. That's part of your problem.

 

[user 85937]

Look at what he said,he KILLED THE YEAST! You're not making wine,brewers do not kill the yeast. That's part of your problem.

Okay, so if killing yeast is a nono, then how do you stop fermentation at the alcohol content you want?

 

[AR-Josh]

Look at what he said,he KILLED THE YEAST! You're not making wine,brewers do not kill the yeast. That's part of your problem.

I believe he's killing the yeast because he doesn't want sugar added in secondary to get fermented. He wants to make his cider sweet. If you are simply being sarcastic then never mind.

The yeasty flavor will go a way some with age. If you are using a brewers yeast then you are probably going to end of with a more yeasty character in the flavor than what you're thinking. If you are not going to carbonate the cider, then why not go get some wine yeast. Then let it age. Look up Ed Worts Apfelwein. A lot of those folks age for up to a year or more.

 

[Brew_4iT]

When yeast die do they give off irregular odors or anything? Like part of their last battle cry?

 

[johnnyspade]

My opinion is that you're drinking that cider way too early, which is why you're getting the yeast. I think good cider needs time to develop, particularly if you're making it really dry. As another poster mentioned, around three weeks is the minimum for fermentation, and it will be alcoholic, but why drink crappy cider? If you can leave it longer, it will improve. I don't secondary cider and use a carboy as the primary. As a general rule I will do 3 months in the carboy, bottle, then at least 3-4 months in bottles before I drink it. If you can set some aside for a little longer, you may be thanking me later. I have an apple cider in a carboy behind me that's been there for about 4 months and I can read through it.

I think bottling cider and keeping the sweetness is really difficult as I won't let artificial sweeteners anywhere near it, but each to his own. For a sweeter cider, a better method is to sweeten just before kegging and drinking it quickly. Or, add a bit of simple syrup to your glass to sweeten it out of the bottle.

 

[TopherM]

You can figure out your alcohol content pretty easily before you ever put the yeast in. HYDROMETER or REFRACTOMETER. Measure your OG, use your yeast specs to see what the expect FG is, then plug the numbers in the ABV formula. If you want your ABV to be lower than that point, add water, if you want it to be higher, add more fermentables, like more apple juice or some honey to a cider. THEN pitch the yeast.

I honestly never even measure this on ciders. The apple juice has a certain amount of fermentables, I let nature take it's course and ferement it out dry, then backsweetening both sweetens and makes the final product so it isn't bone dry. I don't really care what my alcohol content is most of time, as long as I can efficiently lose count of how many I've had on a Friday night.

But again, you are drinking UNCARBONATED hard cider? IMO, it will taste infinitely better if you carbonate it, which means letting your yeast work through the whole process more like making beer, and less like making wine.

 

[unionrdr]

That's what I thought he was going to do,till I read the killed the yeast part. I too think carbonation makes it taste better. I still remember my recipe for "sparkling" apple jack. It took a year to ferment,but came out much like an Asti! I miss that stuff. I didn't prime to put in the bottles,just let it ferment till it slowed down,then bottled it as clear as possible.
I used to serve it in champagne tulips. Carbonation,head was just perfect,like Asti/Champagne. I thought of that when I started reading,but the yeasticide threw me. No sarcasm intended. I don't like doing that to people,so don't think the worst.

 

[AR-Josh]

That's what I thought he was going to do,till I read the killed the yeast part. I too think carbonation makes it taste better. I still remember my recipe for "sparkling" apple jack. It took a year to ferment,but came out much like an Asti! I miss that stuff. I didn't prime to put in the bottles,just let it ferment till it slowed down,then bottled it as clear as possible.
I used to serve it in champagne tulips. Carbonation,head was just perfect,like Asti/Champagne. I thought of that when I started reading,but the yeasticide threw me. No sarcasm intended. I don't like doing that to people,so don't think the worst.

I just didn't know where you were coming from with the response you gave. Sometimes people are sarcastic to people unnecessarily on the internet because they can get away with it. I too hate it when people are like that. But like I said I didn't know where you were coming from based on your comment. Meh...Moving on.