Quantcast

Newbie to All Grain - Question

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

lhommedieu

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
744
Reaction score
84
I'm thinking about doing an all grain brew after my next extract batch, and the AG recipe says to mash at 150 degrees for 90 minutes, and then splarge at 150 degrees. Is that a misprint? Shouldn't the splarge be hotter? Or are there batch methods that splarge at the same temperature?
 

LoloMT7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
1,918
Reaction score
1,273
Location
Missoula
Sounds like a misprint to me. I would guess that the sparge should be with 168-175 degree water. Batch or Fly are both easy techniques. What kind of recipe is it ie style of brew?
 
OP
L

lhommedieu

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
744
Reaction score
84
It's a recipe for Ithica Nut Brown Ale in CloneBrews, by Tess and Mark Szamatulski. I got their more recent book primarily for the water profile charts in one of the appendixes, but liked the idea of having some commercial clone recipes as well to get a better sense of different styles of beer. The Kindle price of @ $3.00 saved me the time of scanning the library copy for the recipes that I liked.

I think that I may be confusing their extract recipe, wherein they are recommending a steep of specialty grains, straining out the water, and splarging the grains with an additional amount of water at the same temperature, on the one hand, with the AG method that's described later, wherein all of the grains are mashed at a specific temperature for 90 minutes - but with no mention of splarging, on the other.

Is the longer mashing period a method for ensuring that enough sugars are converted for the wort, so that splarging is unnecessary?

Best,

Steve
 

eltorrente

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
535
Reaction score
87
Location
Bend, OR
The higher the temperatures, the faster the conversion to sugars. 90 minutes is PLENTY of time for full conversion, especially considering the fact that the conversion will continue to take place during the sparge (not splarge :) ).

60mins at 150 is plenty of time to not have to worry about conversion.

I usually sparge with water at 175-180degs to raise the grain temp as much as I can - and even then, the entire grain bed actually never reaches the 168degs needed to stop conversion.

Here's some unsolicited advice: use recipes as a guideline, but don't get too reliant on them, and learn to formulate your own. You will NEVER duplicate a given recipe by any brewer, given homebrewing conditions. NEVER. You'll get close maybe, but there's too many variables that will contribute to it tasting different. Just a few: Your mash will be at a slightly different temp, your water chemistry is different, your ingredients are a different age, your fermentation temps will be most likely different, different amount of yeast to start, different "house flavors" (from bacteria/yeast in the air), aeration will be different, blah blah blah.

Use recipes for the first few brews, but try - as soon as possible - to create your own. If you use good practices and common sense, your beer will be good. Best way, IMO, is to brew up a simple beer with just a couple ingredients and try to perfect it and experiment with it. For instance - do a Pale Ale and maybe use 9-10lbs of 2row and maybe 1/2lb of crystal malt (maybe more if the L is lower, like crytal 40, for instance), mashed at 148-152degs. Toss in some mid-high alpha acid hops at the start of the boil, and finish with 1/2-1 oz at the last 5 mins and another 1/2 - 1 oz after flame out. Simple and good. From there you can start adjusting things. For an easy stout recipe just do the same thing but use 1lb of roasted instead of crystal and no finishing hops, mashed at maybe 156-158degs.

I see sooooo many recipes that have a bunch of different grains and hops and new brewers follow them religiously, and maybe make good beer - but they don't learn about what those grains actually are doing. Usually all the different grains and hops just get muddled together and you can't really tell what they are contributing.

Keep things simple and stay away from the complicated stuff. Learn simple beers first, and you'll find that those simple beers are generally better and more satisfying than the complicated ones. You'll learn alot more, too.

Once you've brewed several batches and you think you're going to stick with it, invest in a refrigerator with a temperature controller to ferment in - and maybe turn into a kegerator. Besides obviously sanitation, there is nothing that makes more of a difference than fermentation temperature control!
 

shoshin

Shoshin Picobrewery
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
Messages
197
Reaction score
24
Location
Baltimore
I have that book too, and if you notice, most if not all of their all grain instructions specify a 90 minute mash. I'm not sure any of the recipes really require a 90 minute mash, but it cant't hurt, esp if you can maintain your temps for that long. I use 170* water to sparge as a rule of thumb, and a 60 minute mash, and I have been told that you needn't deviate from these parameters unless you have a specific goal in mind.
 

RM-MN

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
14,469
Reaction score
5,197
Location
Solway
With the proper crush on your grain you should have complete conversion in about 20 to 30 minutes. 60 minute mashes make sure your conversion is complete even if your grain is crushed to coarse. In my mind a 90 minute mash is a waste of 30 minutes. JMHO

Sparging is for rinsing out the sugars left behind when you drain your mash tun. The sugars dissolve faster in hotter water but the difference in 170 and 150 is pretty slight. Just give the grain bed an extra stir and you could get the same amount of sugars.

If you keep the grain bed at 170 for over 10 minutes you will denature the enzymes which should keep your sugar profile the same but with batch sparging most people will have the batch stirred and drained before that time and will have the enzymes denatured by heating the wort in the boiling pot.
 
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
34,207
Reaction score
13,230
Location
☀️ Clearwater, FL ☀️
With the proper crush on your grain you should have complete conversion in about 20 to 30 minutes. 60 minute mashes make sure your conversion is complete even if your grain is crushed to coarse. In my mind a 90 minute mash is a waste of 30 minutes. JMHO

Sparging is for rinsing out the sugars left behind when you drain your mash tun. The sugars dissolve faster in hotter water but the difference in 170 and 150 is pretty slight. Just give the grain bed an extra stir and you could get the same amount of sugars.

If you keep the grain bed at 170 for over 10 minutes you will denature the enzymes which should keep your sugar profile the same but with batch sparging most people will have the batch stirred and drained before that time and will have the enzymes denatured by heating the wort in the boiling pot.
I started typing, then realized I was just copying this above.

BTW, I have one of those clone books. Not a fan.
 

william_shakes_beer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
2,853
Reaction score
318
Location
Maryland
Most sources I have read state that conversion is usually complete in 20 minutes. I did an AG brew Sunday and just for fun I took a refract reading at 20 minutes. 1.024. Really bad, since I was looking for 1.056. Continued the 60 minute mash, then boiled and took the "real" OG refract reading, 1.054. Not too shabby. I only lost 2 degrees from a target of 155F over the 60 minute mash. I believe the extra time is beneficial and plan to continue doing 60 minute mashes.
 

cluckk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
1,603
Reaction score
368
Location
San Antonio
I use Brew Smith to calculate mash times (and most other schedules). If you are going to all grain you can't beat the help you can get with good software--like Brew Smith.
 

Ricochetbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
52
Reaction score
14
Location
Orangevale
passedpawn said:
hhhaaaa. I was liking that too. Is this just a large sparge? Is a small one a smarge?
PhelanKA7 said:
I think I actually prefer the word "splarge". I propose we start using that instead.
I would like to formally announce to the HBT community that I will no longer be sparging when I brew. Instead I will be splarging. Based upon some very technical scientific research that is so top secret that I cannot explain it any further I have found that splarging instead is sparging I will increase my efficiencies by at least 5%!!
 
OP
L

lhommedieu

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
744
Reaction score
84
I think I actually prefer the word "splarge". I propose we start using that instead.
lol

I think that it is quite possible that I will never live this one down...

Thanks for the advice. While it is tempting to think that I can at some point clone a perfect e.g., Chimay Red, I appreciate the advice to learn how to do basic styles of beer from the ground up instead of chasing the holy grail(s).

Got the cooler/fermenter with temperature controller (STC100 DIY); got my large ss brew pot and added a ball valve and spout; looking forward to doing a DIY stir plate and 10 gallon cooler conversion to a mash tun; have plans for a 3 tier brew stand, etc. I stayed up late reading Palmer, and my copy of Basic Brewing's "Stepping into All Grain" just got delivered. I.e., I'm in.

I plan to make one more extract so that I can drink some home brew while making the stir plate, mash tun, and brew stand, and then I'll keep the good advice given here in mind when I make my first AG.

Best,

Steve
 

Ricochetbrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
52
Reaction score
14
Location
Orangevale
lhommedieu said:
lol

I think that it is quite possible that I will never live this one down...

Thanks for the advice. While it is tempting to think that I can at some point clone a perfect e.g., Chimay Red, I appreciate the advice to learn how to do basic styles of beer from the ground up instead of chasing the holy grail(s).

Steve
ha. Yeah you are officially on blast. I thought about making a general post pleading for people to change the term completely to sparge. However, I didn't want to salt your wounds. Ha. All in good fun.
I may be wrong but I believe Chimay is fermented in wooden barrels? Don't quote me on that though.
Good luck on future brews.
Ryan.
 

cluckk

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
1,603
Reaction score
368
Location
San Antonio
In my experience homebrewing has involved far more splurging than splarging--at least to hear my wife talk.
 
OP
L

lhommedieu

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
744
Reaction score
84
I can guarantee you that I will name my brewery "Splargess".
 
OP
L

lhommedieu

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
744
Reaction score
84
...

Here's some unsolicited advice: use recipes as a guideline, but don't get too reliant on them, and learn to formulate your own. You will NEVER duplicate a given recipe by any brewer, given homebrewing conditions. NEVER. You'll get close maybe, but there's too many variables that will contribute to it tasting different. Just a few: Your mash will be at a slightly different temp, your water chemistry is different, your ingredients are a different age, your fermentation temps will be most likely different, different amount of yeast to start, different "house flavors" (from bacteria/yeast in the air), aeration will be different, blah blah blah.

Use recipes for the first few brews, but try - as soon as possible - to create your own. If you use good practices and common sense, your beer will be good. Best way, IMO, is to brew up a simple beer with just a couple ingredients and try to perfect it and experiment with it. For instance - do a Pale Ale and maybe use 9-10lbs of 2row and maybe 1/2lb of crystal malt (maybe more if the L is lower, like crytal 40, for instance), mashed at 148-152degs. Toss in some mid-high alpha acid hops at the start of the boil, and finish with 1/2-1 oz at the last 5 mins and another 1/2 - 1 oz after flame out. Simple and good. From there you can start adjusting things. For an easy stout recipe just do the same thing but use 1lb of roasted instead of crystal and no finishing hops, mashed at maybe 156-158degs...
I took your advice and used Palmer and BeerSmith 2 as a guide to make an easy, session style ESB. His uses less Crystal but I wanted my beer to be a little darker. I posted this on another thread for advice but it seems that it falls within the profile for this style. As suggested there, you could add other grains but I think I'll use this for a learning baseline and then fiddle from there.

"English Special Bitter"

7 lbs, 11 oz. Maris Otter Pale Malt
1 lbs, 1 oz. Caramel/Crystal Malt 60L
0.85 oz. Goldings, East Kent (5%) 90 minutes
0.42 oz. Fuggles (4.5%) 90 minutes
0.42 oz. Goldings, East Kent (5%) 45 minutes
0.42 oz. Goldings, East Kent (5%) 15 minutes
1 tsp. Irish Moss 10 minutes
1 package Whitbread Ale yeast (Wyeast Labs #1099) - added to starter.

Est. OG: 1.048; Est. FG: 1.013; Est. ABV: 4.5%, SRM: 10.6; 39 IBU's

Single Infusion Mash for 90 minutes at 152 degrees; Fly sparge at 168 degrees for @ 1 hour.
Primary Fermentation for @ 10 days at 67 degrees; rack to Korny Keg and continue for 4 weeks at 65 degrees.

Edit: I don't want to monopolize two threads, so the latest iteration of my recipe, after reading threads on hbt and listening to advice, can be found here.
 
Top