Newbie - help re cider that’s too dry!

[sbpsychology2018]

Hi,
First time making cider - I’ve got cider that has stopped fermenting, is beautifully clear and has been sitting on sediment in demijohns without fermenting now for about 3 months. It’s lovely, but really ‘tart’. If I add sugar, will it start fermenting again? I’ve been looking about and it seems that it’s getting complicated now - back sweetening, boiling, Camden tablets, sulphites…!!!
Can anyone tell me the simplest way to sweeten this cider without starting fermentation again or ending up with a man cave full of exploding bottles…
Many thanks!
Stu

 

[Lampy]

I think that heat pasteurizing is one of the more complicated methods, I tried it once and have found that adding Campden and potassium sorbate, then adding your sweetener, is easier and works fine.
Another method, which I have not done, is to use an unfermentable sweetener, which will not require any chemicals or heating.
Sometimes I just make a bottle of simple syrup and add a bit to my glass before pouring the dry cider in - if I want it sweeter or drier on any given day, I can!

 

[DBhomebrew]

Are you planning on carbonating? Bottle conditioning?

 

[CKuhns]

Hello Stu - You didn't mention what your Final Gravity (FG) is.

If 1.000 or less, it is crystal clear and you very carefully rack from the lees then likely you will be OK sweetening to 1.004. If I do this I bottle in beer bottles. They can take the pressure if it self carbonates. (I have had some do so) There is some risk as .004 will give you about 2.5 or so volumes of CO2 and cider can drop a little below 1.000 adding about that much more creating "Gushers" when opened.

Easiest way if there are remsining sugars or you wamt to be 100% sure. You must inhibit remove or kill the yeast remaining.
1. Use those chemicals mentioned to do so. (Inhibit)
2. Filter to 0.45 microns, (remove)
3. Pasteurize "still" (kill)

 

[sbpsychology2018]

I think that heat pasteurizing is one of the more complicated methods, I tried it once and have found that adding Campden and potassium sorbate, then adding your sweetener, is easier and works fine.
Another method, which I have not done, is to use an unfermentable sweetener, which will not require any chemicals or heating.
Sometimes I just make a bottle of simple syrup and add a bit to my glass before pouring the dry cider in - if I want it sweeter or drier on any given day, I can!

Thanks Lampy.
I’ll look into that. I’m guessing that I symphony it off the sediment into a clean demijohn and then add the chemicals and leave for a while before sweetening and bottling..?

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Thanks Lampy.
I’ll look into that. I’m guessing that I symphony it off the sediment into a clean demijohn and then add the chemicals and leave for a while before sweetening and bottling..?

Symphony!? Syphon

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Hello Stu - You didn't mention what your Final Gravity (FG) is.

If 1.000 or less, it is crystal clear and you very carefully rack from the lees then likely you will be OK sweetening to 1.004. If I do this I bottle in beer bottles. They can take the pressure if it self carbonates. (I have had some do so) There is some risk as .004 will give you about 2.5 or so volumes of CO2 and cider can drop a little below 1.000 adding about that much more creating "Gushers" when opened.

Easiest way if there are remsining sugars or you wamt to be 100% sure. You must inhibit remove or kill the yeast remaining.
1. Use those chemicals mentioned to do so. (Inhibit)
2. Filter to 0.45 microns, (remove)
3. Pasteurize "still" (kill)

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Ah - I’ve not been measuring things like gravity. I just washed, smashed up and pressed some apples and then let it ferment in demijohns for a few months until it stopped fermenting… then let it sit for another 3 months. Rustic is perhaps an overly generous description of my approach. I was kinda hoping that adding some sugar would work but what little research I’ve done tells me that this is not the way to go! I’ll maybe invest in one of these floating gravity measuring things..!
Thanks

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Are you planning on carbonating? Bottle conditioning?

I really dont know. Probably bottle conditioning, although I’m mostly bald and don’t think that conditioner is much use to me.
Thanks

 

[Lampy]

Thanks Lampy.
I’ll look into that. I’m guessing that I symphony it off the sediment into a clean demijohn and then add the chemicals and leave for a while before sweetening and bottling..?

That is pretty much what I do. But this is only for still cider, not carbed.

 

[sbpsychology2018]

That is pretty much what I do. But this is only for still cider, not carbed.

That’s really helpful. Still is fine!
Thanks
Stu

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Very helpful - I’ll be better prepared next time round…!

 

[Maylar]

1 crushed Campden tablet per gallon (be sure to dissolve it well) and 1/2 TSP of Potassium Sorbate per gallon and you can sweeten it to any level.

 

[Chalkyt]

Hi Stu, welcome to the never-ending debate.

I might as well throw in my long-winded10 cents worth. I am an advocate of heat pasteurising since I don't have a keg setup for carbonating and tend to do small batches which I crush and blend from my semi-domestic orchard.

Firstly, you probably need to decide how sweet is sweet. You can simply take a glass of your cider (which should be fully fermented at SG 1.000 after 3 months) and add some sugar or AJ to taste. For me, between half and one teaspoon of sugar (2.5 - 5.0 grams) per 250ml glass is fine but you might like something different. As a guide, this is about 10 to 20 grams per litre which will bring your specific gravity to 1.005 - 1.010. The significance of this is that if you bottle and fermentation starts again, it will ferment down to 1.000 and generate between 2.5 and 5.0 volumes of CO2. Beer and soft drink is usually around 2.5 volumes. You get about 1 volume of CO2 for every two gravity points of fermentation.

So as outlined in the replies above, you need to use chemical or heat pasteurising to stop any residual yeast from restarting the fermentation. I prefer heat pasteurising because I can stop the fermentation in sealed bottles whenever I want. For example, if I bottle at 1.010 and pasteurise at 1.005 I will end up with 2.5 volumes of CO2 and 10 grams of sugar per litre unfermented in the cider. Sounds easy... but it does take a little effort.

I monitor the rate of carbonation by having a test bottle fitted with a pressure gauge and aim for 2.0 - 2.5 bar (30 - 40 psi) of pressure which will be about 2+ volumes of CO2. The simpler (and quite effective) alternative is to have a plastic test bottle and do the "squeeze test", i.e. when it is as hard as a bottle of soft drink, the carbonation is just about right. It might be a bit crude but it works well enough. Of course, if you don't want it carbonated, just sweeten and pasteurise. One approach to heat pasteurising is to have a look at Papper's post at the top of the forum, or for alternatives use the search function to find the attachment to my post of 1 February 2021.

The simple "recipe" for heat pasteurising is to expose the cider to 50 "pasteurising units" of heat. This involves heating the bottles up to 65C in a water bath, hold them there for a couple of minutes then remove and let them cool down (I use a sous vide heater in a plastic bucket but stove top in a saucepan is fine). You can monitor the temperature with a "meat" thermometer in a bottle of water as per the attached photo.

At 65C, sealed bottles with 2 volumes of CO2 shouldn't develop more than about 80-100psi of pressure which should be well inside the safety capacity for most bottles (new bottles are typically batch tested to well over 150psi) and the bottle pressure returns to normal as the temperature drops, so volcanoes and bottle bombs are avoided. Of course, PPE like goggles and gloves are recommended "just in case". FYI I have attached a chart of a recent heat pasteurisation so you can get an idea of what happens if you go down this path.

Have fun!

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Chalkyt - thank you so much for that info and for taking the time to produce such a comprehensive description of what to do. Im
Intrigued by the heating the bottles approach. I’ve got various bits and pieces coming - hydrometer, campden tablets etc so I’ll be in a position to do something in the next week or so.
Thanks again for such a useful reply. I’ve learned a heck of a lot about brewing in the last 24 hours!

 

[revpaulucc]

I apologize if someone has already said this but the simplest way to backsweeten would be to add a non-fermentable sugar like erethrytol. That way you won’t have to worry about the fermentation kicking back off.

 

[teddyearp]

Oh heck. I may as well weigh in here too. In layman's terms:

Now since you just want still cider, I won't go into the whole bottle conditioning/carbonating thing. I quit using those floaty things too once I got a good recipe.

If I were you, get some flip top bottles, add about three tblsp sugar per gallon to about a cup of apple juice per gallon to resweeten it. Put that in separate container and syphon your brew into that container. Then use a bottle wand, bottle your stuff and stick it straight to fridge.

It even gets better then. And though it pretty much stalls the yeast, if you do get some bubbles, you'll like it. And swing tops tend to fail before the bottle 'bombs', IMHO.

 

[sbpsychology2018]

Oh heck. I may as well weigh in here too. In layman's terms:

Now since you just want still cider, I won't go into the whole bottle conditioning/carbonating thing. I quit using those floaty things too once I got a good recipe.

If I were you, get some flip top bottles, add about three tblsp sugar per gallon to about a cup of apple juice per gallon to resweeten it. Put that in separate container and syphon your brew into that container. Then use a bottle wand, bottle your stuff and stick it straight to fridge.

It even gets better then. And though it pretty much stalls the yeast, if you do get some bubbles, you'll like it. And swing tops tend to fail before the bottle 'bombs', IMHO.

Genius! Thanks!

 

[DBhomebrew]

@sbpsychology2018, do not blow past "and though it pretty much stalls the yeast, if you do get some bubbles, you'll like it. And swing tops tend to fail before the bottle 'bombs', IMHO."

Notice that the suggestion is filled with phrases such as "pretty much", "if you do get", "tend to fail before the bottle bombs".

 

[bushpilot]

Stabilize, as outlined above, or pasteurize, or add artificial sweetener.

I like my ciders a little sweet, and a little fizzy. So I bottle condition (with fermentable sugar) and sweeten with non-fermentable. I like Erithytol for sweetening.

 

[Chalkyt]

FYI, there is an old post by Beaudoin "PSI Tolerance of Grolsch Bottles" on 9 April 2013, where Grolsch confirm that their seals may leak at 70 - 80 PSI. That is also my experience with bubbles escaping Grolsch bottles seals when approaching pasteurising temperature, but it doesn't happen with every bottle. Claude Jolicoeur also refers to this in his book, "as these will let excess pressure exit and thus avoid bursting".

These days I use "common" (12oz or 330ml) recycled beer bottles with crown caps. They weigh around 200 grams compared with the equivalent Grolsch bottle at 240grams so you might assume that the Grolsch type bottle is 20% stronger (they are rated at 290psi).

Andrew Lea's Carbonation table indicates that the sealed bottle pressure will reach around 80psi at 65C with 2 volumes of CO2, and 80psi at only 55C with 2.5 volumes.

 

[DuncB]

Try monk fruit extract non fermentable without the tang of the ___ol group of sweeteners. If you are bottling to carbonate use the correct amount of sugar and the added monk fruit to sweeten.
If keeping it flat adding the monk fruit and metabisulphite and put in a bag in box. Wine lasts for months this way.
But if you want years I'd bottle it.
I used monk fruit first in a row calorie neipa clone of weldwerks fitbits and in a bone dry 1.3% ginger beer kegged and okay at 6 months.

 

[TomSellers]

I apologize if someone has already said this but the simplest way to backsweeten would be to add a non-fermentable sugar like erethrytol. That way you won’t have to worry about the fermentation kicking back off.

Just a thought on this. I bought 1kg of Mannitol and found it gave me stomach cramps and diarrhea. So then I decided to do some research. I wish now I had bought erythritol instead of Mannitol. According to ChatGPT, erythritol is usually better tolerated, and as a bonus, plays much better with yeast.

 

[NightFlight]

@sbpsychology2018, do not blow past "and though it pretty much stalls the yeast, if you do get some bubbles, you'll like it. And swing tops tend to fail before the bottle 'bombs', IMHO."

Notice that the suggestion is filled with phrases such as "pretty much", "if you do get", "tend to fail before the bottle bombs".

I had this gigantic 5L Grolsch swing-top bottle full of ginger beer I forgot at the bottom of my fridge for months. It leaked all over and sugars stuck up the veggie drawer. So I took it out and cleaned out the fridge.

After putting the fridge back together, I sat on the floor with that thing between my legs like some sort of kindergarten kid and opened it up. BOOOOOOOM!!!

It blew the top like a shot gun. Me and my entire kitchen were treated to a gusher. The explosion shocked and commanded new respect from me for bottles under pressure. I tossed that bottle, and I no longer bottle carbonate or condition. Its all kegs in a nice safe keezer for me. Yep.

 

[NightFlight]

Just a thought on this. I bought 1kg of Mannitol and found it gave me stomach cramps and diarrhea. So then I decided to do some research. I wish now I had bought erythritol instead of Mannitol. According to ChatGPT, erythritol is usually better tolerated, and as a bonus, plays much better with yeast.

I can't tolerate any of them. Stevia, erythriotol, Mannitol - whatever-a-tol. Inverted sugars. Unless I want to spend half a day on the crapper passing sharts, then good old golden sugar it is for me.

 

[TomSellers]

I can't tolerate any of them. Stevia, erythriotol, Mannitol - whatever-a-tol. Inverted sugars. Unless I want to spend half a day on the crapper passing sharts, then good old golden sugar it is for me.

I'm in full agreement. I'd happily gift my bag of Mannitol to any of my neighbours if they wanted it. In order to solve the dry cider problem, I followed advice I had seen previously on this forum. OG of 1.065, and cold crashed it when it reached 1.02. I differed a bit in that I used SAF-05 yeast, and fermented under pressure in an All Rounder at 20C. After decanting from the All Rounder, I keep it cold in Grolsch bottles and monitor them for pressure. So far after about 4 weeks, they are lightly carbonated enough that I do not have to force carbonate, and the sweetness is suitable for our palates. However, I think I will start the next batch at 1.05, as it seems it knocks me out, and I am useless unless I have a nap an hour after consuming a bottle.

 

[NightFlight]

Could just use a soda stream and a spoon of sugar?

 

[NightFlight]

removed to a new thread

 

[KevinsCider]

I really dont know. Probably bottle conditioning, although I’m mostly bald and don’t think that conditioner is much use to me.
Thanks

If you're going to bottle condition, I'd probably suggest just using a non-fermentable sugar such as Xylitol or Allulose. This will still allow you to sweeten the cider without getting bottle bombs (assuming you don't overdo it with the priming sugar).

I use this online calculator and target 2.5 vol carbonation to calculate how much priming sugar to use.

 

[Cider Wraith]

Add a splash of fresh apple or pom at serving. Enjoy!

 

[Cider Wraith]

Somehow I stumbled into making ciders with ideal residual sweetness with added fruit tastes. It's probably because I'm doing something wrong. Keep experimenting and see what seems comes out to your liking

 

[teddyearp]

@sbpsychology2018, do not blow past "and though it pretty much stalls the yeast, if you do get some bubbles, you'll like it. And swing tops tend to fail before the bottle 'bombs', IMHO."

Notice that the suggestion is filled with phrases such as "pretty much", "if you do get", "tend to fail before the bottle bombs".

Thank you so very much for your awesome critique. I suppose I should qualify my opinion. Because anyone knows that a forum post is just that. My opinion comes from reading plenty of threads/posts here and elsewhere, but I suppose the most important part of my opinion, is my experience. I haven't bottle conditioned past 35 psi and I don't think I've cold crashed my cider for longer than three-four months.

I suppose the best thing to say is Your Mileage May Vary, or YMMV, IMHO.

 

[madscientist451]

Can anyone tell me the simplest way to sweeten this cider without starting fermentation again or ending up with a man cave full of exploding bottles…

There are two simple, foolproof methods I've been using for years:
1. Blend "in the glass": Pour yourself a glass of cider then add what you want to suit your taste. Things I've tried include frozen apple juice concentrate, simple syrup made with water and honey or sugar or commercial cider which is usually way too sweet for me but works great as a blending material. Around here, commercial cider is somewhat expensive, (compared to making my own) so I stretch out the blending material as much as possible.
2. Sweeten a small amount of cider and keep in the fridge. I re-use 1.5 L screw top wine bottles and add about 200ml of frozen apple juice concentrate from Walmart. I keep the bottle in the fridge and it usually lasts for a week or less so even if it starts to ferment a little, its not a problem.
Don't forget that you are home brewing. You don't have to make a shelf-stable ready to use product like a commercial manufacturer.
You can doctor up and change your beverages as you see fit or to suit individual tastes of your guests.