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New Zealand Pils

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stickyfinger

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Hey, I was reading in BYO about New Zealand Pils (i think it was BYO) and was kind of intrigued. I just brewed up an amazingly awesome German Pils and I am interested in making a hoppier (flavor-wise) Pils. Has anyone made a Pils with NZ hops? Which hops worked best for it? Did you dryhop or just use kettle hops? How much? I was thinking I'd buy a couple ounces of like 2-3 varieties and then do a huge 15-20 min addition and *maybe* a dryhop addition.
 

Crice

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I made one that turned out really well,
For a 5 gallon batch I used:
1/2 ounce Motueka at 60
1/2 ounce Nelson Sauvin at 30
1/2 ounce Rakau at 10
1/2 ounce Motueka at 10
1/2 ounce Rakau dry hop

It had great fruity hop aroma and flavor with just a hint of bitterness. Next time I'll bump up the dry hop to an ounce to increase the aroma a bit.
 

Sadu

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I live in New Zealand and there are commercial examples of these everywhere. I'd say they seem to be next most popular in the NZ craft beer scene after IPAs / Pale ales.

Style interpretations seem to be pretty loose. Overall they sit somewhere between German and Czech pilsners but you have pretty wide license, and breweries hop them however they want - some more traditional, some are hop bombs. Word is that many commercial brewers are also using ale yeasts for these.

The best examples, in my view, feature a healthy load of late hops and dry hops, using the NZ noble-type varieties. Motueka + Wai-iti are my favs but people use all kinds. They are generally hopped a bit lighter than a good pale ale and if you are lagering for any length of time you want to hold back the dry-hops until it's almost ready to serve so the aroma is fresh. Bitterness always seems to be on the lower side, but I like Pilsner Urquell levels of bitterness personally. That mild bite is what makes it a pilsner instead of a generic lager.

My last 5G batch uses Motueka for bittering then about 3oz of late hops (Motueka/Wai-iti), split between 15/5/flameout then 1.5oz of dryhops after lagering. I tend to use soft Pilsen profile water but have tried with high chloride and high sulfate with success also.

I feel the key to success here is to use solid brewing processes to get an awesome clean lager base to showcase your hops on. Fresh malt, simple grain bill, mash low, manage pH & water, LODO if you can, pitch enough healthy yeast, aerate well, ferment with temp control, diacetyl rest, decent lagering period, pressure ferment if you can, be stringent about post-fermentation oxygen, take pride in how you serve it.

They can be amazing when done well.
 

AzOr

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There’s a recipe posted in the lager section. It’s a pilz with NZ hops. They are Wakatu I believe. It’s on my brew to do list. Looks very tasty.
 

Iseneye

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i assume you arent paying $30us per pound for these guys right? Whats the going rate for your “domestic” hops?
Rates vary but Wakatu is $13NZ for 200grams (just under 1/2 pound) so around $10US for half pound or $20US for full pound give or take.

Funnily enough imported US hops aren't much more expensive than domestic NZ hops.

I'm not a big fan of dry-hopped pilsners based on the commerical examples. I just use a Czech Pilz base recipe and replace all of the Saaz with NZ hops of different varieties.
 

Northern_Brewer

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It's always fascinating to see the subtle differences between different cultures, even small ones like the "normal" size of a pack of hops. Just as a data point, I'm looking at one of the main online suppliers in the UK (here everything comes in packs of 100g) and they have most of their 2017 Kiwi hops - Waimea, Wai-iti, NZ Cascade, Motueka - at GBP5.10-5.30 plus shipping but including 20% sales tax, so NZ$9.90/€5.90/US$7.20/AU$9.00/C$9.00 per 100g, or about US$32.70/lb.

Nelson Sauvin is currently at a 10-15% premium to those, but in the past it has been something like 40-50% more, certainly last year it was the most expensive hop of the lot here but this year that crown seems to have passed to Galaxy.

My impression is that we get a rather better choice here than the US - I guess it's like wine, with the UK importing so much we can pick the best from around the world, and NZ varieties seem to work quite well with British styles of beer.
 
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SanPancho

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to be honest id be very surprised if UK got a better selection. when you consider craft beer started here and has 30 years history, as well as the biggest buyers of "craft" type hops in the world, and we have the biggest homebrew market in the world, i'd be a bit shocked if you had better selection available in the uk. i'm not an authority on the matter, but in my mind it simply does not compute. goes against everything ive seen on travels around the world in terms of other items- electronics, cars, tools, etc.

as to pricing, thats a bit more hard to define. your 100g is our 1/4lb, 4 ounces, more or less. but in a beer with three varieties, which isnt much, you'd need to buy 300g worth of hops? we can typically get 1 or 2 oz bags, so i'd likely need to only buy 3 oz, or about 100g. although- you'd obviously be getting "better pricing" by buying the larger sizes. so thats a bit of a trade off.

and most states in US dont tax food- which is what they consider hops to be. although being commonwealth you might see a bit of discount there vs what our hop importers pay on the AU/NZ hops. not sure what sort of tariffs there are for agricultural products but i'd be surprised if there wasnt any tariff.

definitely interesting to see the differences.
 

Northern_Brewer

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You're seriously trying to play the "history" game with a Brit? o_O We have craft brewers with 300 years of history, never mind 30; we were importing hops for centuries before Columbus sailed. On a per-capita basis the UK has 5 breweries for every 3 in the US - the brewing thing runs deep here.

If by "craft" beer your mean "beer with US hops" then yes, obviously that began in the US. But at the same time there's a certain parochialism that comes when world-class produce is on your doorstep - you see it most clearly when you try to buy wine in France. The average French supermarket will have nothing but French wine, with just a few BMC-equivalents from overseas. Compare that with a British supermarket - not having much domestic wine production of our own, we're rather more open to cherrypicking the best worldwide, so you'll see claret next to California cabernet next to one from Coonawarra next to a wine from Uruguay or China. One doesn't really appreciate that "import" mindset until you go to a winegrowing country.

I guess with hops it's exacerbated by the fashion for high-terpenol beers, using US-type hops. So in the US, people just use the local ones and there's not much interest in paying import costs for foreign hops with lower terpenol content - I guess there's not much interest across the pond in hops like Jester and Ernest, whereas there's quite a lot of British brewers using them. And just generally, that old beer tradition means that there's still a lot of people brewing old-school beers - if the bulletin boards are any guide, a small majority of British homebrewers seem more interested in trad British bitters, which use British or European hops. So for instance, our online stores carry several Slovenian varieties, whereas you guys might get a generic "Styrian" if you're lucky - whereas we get a pretty decent selection of US hops.

Specifically on NZ - part of the deal of us joining the EEC/EU was that the Commonwealth countries lost their favoured trading status with the UK, which caused some upset at the time and has been one of the arguments of the Brexiteers. It's more just that cultural affinity of family etc links, and the import mindset I mentioned earlier.

Just to give you an idea, I've done a rough comparison of two British and two US stores, I've roughly deduped them but only quickly, so don't hold me to it! (another massive cultural difference is that our stores do roughly as many cones as pellets, I was amazed the way you guys only really do pellets, whereas ours will offer a choice of pellets and cones for the big varieties)

https://www.morebeer.com/category/beer-hops-brewing.html
https://www.northernbrewer.com/brew...s/pellet-hops?dir=asc&limit=72&order=name&p=1
https://www.brewuk.co.uk/ingredients/ingredientshops.html
https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product-category/ingredients/hops/

BrewUK has 13 NZ out of 106 total
Morebeer has 10 NZ out of ~99
Northern Brewer (no relation !) has 9 NZ out of 89
TMM has 9 NZ out of 85

I see no evidence of your hypothesis that the US gets "a better selection"! I'll admit that I was maybe biased because I tend to get my mainstream hops from BrewUK, and the pellet/cone thing inflates the overall numbers (it was 163 units in their hop list before I deduped it)

JFTR, this is the current BrewUK list :
Admiral, Ahtanum, Amarillo, Apollo, Aramis, Archer, Atlas, Aurora, Azacca, Beata, Belma, Bouclier, Bramling Cross, Bravo, Brewers Gold, Cascade, Cascade (NZ), Centennial, Challenger, Chinook, Citra, Cluster, Columbus, Comet, Crystal, Dana, Delta, Dr Rudi, Ekuanot, El Dorado, Endeavour, Epic, Ernest, Eureka, First Gold, Flyer, Fuggles, Galaxy, Galena, Glacier, Goldings (East Kent), Goldings (Worcester), Green Bullet, Hallertau Blanc, Hallertauer Hersbrucker, Hallertauer Mittelfruh, Huell Melon, Jarrylo, Jester, Junga, Kazbek, Liberty, Lubelski, Magnum, Mandarine Bavaria, Marynka, Minstrel®, Mosaic, Motueka, Mount Hood, Nelson Sauvin, Northdown, Northern Brewer, Nugget, NZ Kohatu, NZ Southern Cross, NZ Wakatu, Olicana, Pacific Gem, Pacific Jade, Pacifica, Pekko, Perle, Phoenix, Pilgrim, Pilot, Pioneer, Premiant, Progress, Rakau, Saaz, Saphir, Simcoe, Sladek, Sorachi Ace, Spalt Select, Sterling, Styrian Cardinal, Styrian Dragon, Styrian Goldings (Bobek), Styrian Goldings (Celeia), Styrian Goldings (Savijnski), Styrian Wolf, Summer, Summit, Sybilla, Target, Tettnang, Triskel, Vic Secret, Wai-iti, Waimea, Warrior, WGV, Willamette, Yellow Sub

[no connection with either BUK or TMM other than as an occasional customer]
 

SanPancho

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first- the hops. you've focused your numbers on NZ hops. but your post didnt say that is what you were talking about specifically. thats alot different. NZ hops are in short supply, so quite often those hops are the ones where being the lucky person to get an early contract means you've locked up supply for 3-5-10 years. it distorts the results. especially in a large market like the US where a few big craft brewers can lock up an entire farm's production of something like nelson, galaxy, etc. maybe run those stats again basing on worldwide selection? would be alot more informative i think.

about the size of the market- per capita is nice and well. but that means nothing. barrels. quantity. you brew more barrels, you buy more hops. the volume of brewing is the thing that matters here, not how many 5hl brewpubs you have. production levels would be a better comparison if you are up for getting the numbers. and the size of the homebrew market if you want to add that as well. the total size of the market is what dictates how many producers send their goods. isnt that why you guys wanted to add 1" to a chinese man's shirt tails? because volume. volume gives you access to the most suppliers, and often, first dibs over the "little" guys.

but if you restrict the discussion to just NZ varieties, then it might not show.

and as for UK hops, we actually can get a decent variety. morebeer bought a ton. big mistake. they're not selling. so our lack of exposure to them is result driven- not a lack of availability.

as for the history, we can talk about the technical meaning of craft brewer, or the widely used and understood one. you've gone for the technicality.

germany, poland, italy, the UK, spain, singapore, thailand, japan, india, australia, new zealand, the US, canada, mexico, costa rica, columbia, argentina, chile, peru and brazil all have "craft" breweries that i have either visited or sampled their wares - which mimic the american "craft brewery" styles- west coast/hoppy pale, big bitter IPAs, and even now the NE IPAs. non-IPA UK styles were not prominent, other than some generic/bastardized versions like stout, porter. so if you want to point to small, old UK brewers as the basis of "craft" then that's your prerogative. but the "craft" breweries that are being imitated worldwide on the largest scale are all american styles. when you say "craft brewery" thats what people typically think of, worldwide. in my experience. personally, i am trying to develop some new styles that are a mix of us and UK, so im in now way a booster for one over the other. in fact, im a bit disappointed in the situation.

that's because there wasnt nearly as much variety or local "flavor" as i had hoped when i went to breweries in an other country. no local versions/specialties really. just alot of imitation of the US styles noted above.
 

ESBrewer

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Hmph, some companies really brew with ale yeast and sell the product as a pils. So what is the points of the name 'pilsner' anymore (other than it sells beer). At times times the New World craft beer scene makes me confused...
 

Sadu

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In NZ there is often an addon category specifically for NZ pils. In America, I guess you make it taste either German or bohemian so it will fit?
 
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stickyfinger

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I'm sampling my kegged NZ Pils now. It is seriously f'ing delicious!! I just went with 100% Best Pils malt, 150 ppm sulfate in brewing water, 40ish IBUs with Tinseth using hop extract, W-34/70 yeast. I threw in 7 oz of Ekuanot to 6 gallons of wort at flameout and let that swirl around with the lid off while the wort cooled using my counterflow chiller to recirculate to the pot. It took like 16 minutes to get down to 60s.

It's my favorite Pils to date! I love the hop character, tastes like a super noble hop character, kind grassy in a good way, spicy, some celery, very very nice. i'm thinking of doing a series of Pilseners with the same recipe but switch up the hops. Interested in trying Mosaic or some other sexy NEIPA hops in it.
 

Iseneye

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I'm sampling my kegged NZ Pils now. It is seriously f'ing delicious!! I just went with 100% Best Pils malt, 150 ppm sulfate in brewing water, 40ish IBUs with Tinseth using hop extract, W-34/70 yeast. I threw in 7 oz of Ekuanot to 6 gallons of wort at flameout and let that swirl around with the lid off while the wort cooled using my counterflow chiller to recirculate to the pot. It took like 16 minutes to get down to 60s. .
I've read your posts above and can't see any NZ hops listed. Ekuanot is american (I had to google it). If it doesn't have NZ hops in it it's not an NZ Pilsener.
 
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stickyfinger

stickyfinger

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I've read your posts above and can't see any NZ hops listed. Ekuanot is american (I had to google it). If it doesn't have NZ hops in it it's not an NZ Pilsener.
****, really?! i thought Ekuanot was NZ. oops! ha ha. i guess you're right! well, i need to try some NZ hops in it still then i guess!

god, i feel like such a dumbass. this beer has really opened my eyes to the possibilities of super hopped Pils though. i haven't done any dry-hopped versions yet, but adding a lot to the kettle, like NEIPA levels, seems to give awesome results! it's like bordering on NEIPA good to me. different, but super hoppy, crisp, delicious!
 
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Sadu

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Motueka harvest is happening pretty soon, defo looking forward to doing a wet-hop NZ pils. Glad your beer came out good, I do love a good hoppy lager.
 
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stickyfinger

stickyfinger

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Motueka harvest is happening pretty soon, defo looking forward to doing a wet-hop NZ pils. Glad your beer came out good, I do love a good hoppy lager.
ok, still looking to get some nice NZ hops for a NZ Pils then! Moteuka-Waiti sounds like a very good contender for my first attempt.
 
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stickyfinger

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what about Dr Rudi? I seem to have a pound of that in the freezer. would that be good as a single hop NZ Pils?
 

Sadu

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I haven't brewed with it myself but our local brewpub raves about it. The aa rating is about right for a dual purpose hop too, which is handy for a single-hopped brew.
I'd say give it a try.
 

ba-brewer

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I tried a equinox and cascade lager once but the lager yeast flavor seemed to clash with the hops.

Which lager yeasts are people using?
 

duelerx

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Anyone can share the recipe that BYO uses for the NZ Pilsner?.
 
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FWIW, I've tried Wai-iti in an IPA now, and it was ok. To me it has kind of a Swee Tarts candy character to it. I still like (the non-new zealand) Ekuanot best in Pils
 

duelerx

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FWIW, I've tried Wai-iti in an IPA now, and it was ok. To me it has kind of a Swee Tarts candy character to it. I still like (the non-new zealand) Ekuanot best in Pils
I will look for Wai-iti next time!, i have on hand Nelson, Motueka and Pacifica.
 

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Motueka and Pacifica are really nice. I don't particularly like Nelson, but the first two would make for a great tasting Lager/Pale/Golden Ale.
 

couchsending

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A lot of the New Zealand hops are derived from either Saaz or Hallertau.

Riwaka
Motueka
Pacifica
Wai-iti
Kohatu
Wakatu

If you want to make a true Pilsner with them you should use them at 90/60, 40, and 20 and that’s it. Dry hop if you want but I think you’ll be surprised how well they come through with a simple Pilsner malt base and lager yeast. You don’t need a ton of late hopping or dry hopping. That’s an IPL not a pils.
 
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