New way for electric brewing?

[virtualpaul]

I decided to switch to electric brewing on my last brew day so I could do this in my basement the next time. I was searching for a replacement for my propane boiler, but most of what I found did not appeal to me: Water heater element, immersion heater or heat stick.

I prefer not drilling holes in my kettle. Also I don't like the idea of plunging some electric device in liquid. It feels like throwing a toaster in a bathtub... Also I prefer not having a heating element in direct contact with my wort. Most of the heating elements seem to be made for heating water. I saw the BoilCoil but then I thought I would like something more easily replaceable.

So I am wondering if this kind of heater exists on the market. Kind of the top of a range but smaller with the elements closer together:

Perhaps I could just buy 3 single burner, they are pretty cheap.

Otherwise I am thinking of making my own. Either with two 120 volts (2 on one ~1.8kw, 1 on the other ~0.9kw) or 240 volts. Not sure yet but I guess I would design it to be compatible with the most common range heating element.
For the controller, inkbird seems to be popular on amazon. There is also BrewPi but being cheap, I would probably only use the Arduino part (BrewDuino?) and not the RaspberryPi.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Would an induction cooktop suit your needs?

 

[jschein]

What Matt said, it will evenly heat. Your design has hot and cold spots
Go 240 if you can

 

[virtualpaul]

Would an induction cooktop suit your needs?

I looked at induction cooktop but I found that my kettle is not ferromagnetic so it would not work. While searching for induction diffuser, most are either too pricey or they don't work much according to reviewers. Also you loose efficiency according to some. Also the 240v cooktop seems pricey.

 

[virtualpaul]

What Matt said, it will evenly heat. Your design has hot and cold spots
Go 240 if you can

I think it would have a lot less hot/cold spots than most water heater element or immersion heater since the heat surface is large.

 

[brewbama]

I use induction and love it.

 

[Chek]

I just set up a system to brew in my kitchen, so I am quite familiar with stove top elements. There are online calculators that will dictate the time it takes to boil.

That being said, I like your burner idea and all you need to do is decide how fast realistically you want your wort to boil and then work backwards from that information. Burner choices, resistance, how many, breaker size for amp draw etc

For a real world example my 2600 watt element with 240 volts takes ~ 25 minutes to boil, 21.5 litres from mash temperature. The online calculator says 22 min, the time difference would be due to heat loss and any other inefficiencies.

But I really do like your triple burner idea.

I had looked at replacement elements for my neighbours stove and stores around here want 35 bucks a piece. Homdepot wants 20 bucks for a 5500 watt element but you need to put a hole in your kettle...

Induction cooktop is just under 500 bucks and my research indicates that it uses more energy than conventional elements for large volumes of liquid.

Being as cheap as I am, meaning the least amount of energy consumed over time, I like stove elements.

So I'm thinking 3 stove elements found in a junk yard is the most efficient option.

Thoughts?

 

[jrgtr42]

duplicate

 

[jrgtr42]

I have an Avantco IC3500 INduction, it does tqake 240V, it was under $200. there's an 1800 watt version (110volt) that's about $120. I've used it for a dozen or so brews and it's worked flawlessly so far. From what I understand, induction is extremely efficient, because it basically turns the kettle into the heat source - the metal immediately in contact with the element become heated. I can still put my hand on the side of the pot and it's fine.
True you do need a magnetic kettle to work - though I've heard there are magnetic discs that can go under a non-magnetic pot that makes it work - I presume there are inefficiencies there.

 

[doug293cz]

I just set up a system to brew in my kitchen, so I am quite familiar with stove top elements. There are online calculators that will dictate the time it takes to boil.

That being said, I like your burner idea and all you need to do is decide how fast realistically you want your wort to boil and then work backwards from that information. Burner choices, resistance, how many, breaker size for amp draw etc

For a real world example my 2600 watt element with 240 volts takes ~ 25 minutes to boil, 21.5 litres from mash temperature. The online calculator says 22 min, the time difference would be due to heat loss and any other inefficiencies.

But I really do like your triple burner idea.

I had looked at replacement elements for my neighbours stove and stores around here want 35 bucks a piece. Homdepot wants 20 bucks for a 5500 watt element but you need to put a hole in your kettle...

Induction cooktop is just under 500 bucks and my research indicates that it uses more energy than conventional elements for large volumes of liquid.

Being as cheap as I am, meaning the least amount of energy consumed over time, I like stove elements.

So I'm thinking 3 stove elements found in a junk yard is the most efficient option.

Thoughts?

The most efficient use of energy will be with an element in the kettle, and the kettle insulated. A kettle sitting on stove burners will have more heat loss due to heat that doesn't go into the kettle, but into the environment instead.

Brew on :mug;

 

[AkTom]

I’m about to pull the trigger on an Anvil Foundry. With 220 it is sweet. Double wall and elements under the bottom.

 

[virtualpaul]

For a real world example my 2600 watt element with 240 volts takes ~ 25 minutes to boil, 21.5 litres from mash temperature. The online calculator says 22 min, the time difference would be due to heat loss and any other inefficiencies.

I had looked at replacement elements for my neighbours stove and stores around here want 35 bucks a piece. Homdepot wants 20 bucks for a 5500 watt element but you need to put a hole in your kettle...

Thoughts?

Thanks for sharing. ~20 min is perfectly acceptable to me. I would do ~40 liters do so it might take 60-90 minutes for me.

I made a small excel of the most standard surface elements available. The two most standard seem to be either:
8" 2400 Watts
6" 1500 Watts

Then I computed if I would power a 240 volts element with 120 volts but it seems I would need 3 to get 1.8kW. So I guess I would need 240 volts if I want to go above 1.8kW while keeping standard elements.

It looks like the 120 volts single burners at 1kw don't use standard element. I found one on amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Thermador-Cooktop-Replacement-Surface-Heating/dp/B00DVKC6YE

For cheap prices, I found www.fridge-filters.ca which has some standard elements for about $18CAD.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the biggest issue is figuring out what the efficiency is. In immersion elements, you get almost 100% of the wattage into the water. In a stovetop element, it may be as low as 50% efficient so 2000 watts is really 1000 watts. So, while a 3000w element inside the kettle might be a very nice rolling boil, you may need 5kW.

Also figure out how to keep a boilover from flooding into your three electrical connection areas. A well built drop in element is going to be much safer if you get that other part wrong.

 

[Chek]

I like the drop in element idea, and if you couple it with a temperature controller and set it to just below the wort boiling you won't have a boil over if you leave the room, or unattended etc, then when you are back you just adjust and it will boil in a few minutes.

I have boiled 4 batches on my stove and have not had a boil over. The first time I watched it constantly then I simply set the stove timer for 20 minutes so I didn't accidentally ignore it. No disasters in my kitchen yet.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Someone on here years ago did what you are suggesting-- they used an old stovetop range, and re-welded where the mounts needed to fit in order to get the elements all underneath the boil kettle.

 

[virtualpaul]

I think the biggest issue is figuring out what the efficiency is. In immersion elements, you get almost 100% of the wattage into the water. In a stovetop element, it may be as low as 50% efficient so 2000 watts is really 1000 watts. So, while a 3000w element inside the kettle might be a very nice rolling boil, you may need 5kW.

Also figure out how to keep a boilover from flooding into your three electrical connection areas. A well built drop in element is going to be much safer if you get that other part wrong.

I doubt efficiency is that low. But for sure it's lower than an immersion element.

For boil over, it would be similar to doing it on a stove top since I would use the same drip bowls which have a hole in the middle to prevent liquid from going into the wiring. Since the kettle is larger than the element area, the liquid would probably not reach the element depending on how the top is made. It would be safer if the liquid goes on the floor in that case.
My kettle is 15G so I never had any boil over.

 

[virtualpaul]

Someone on here years ago did what you are suggesting-- they used an old stovetop range, and re-welded where the mounts needed to fit in order to get the elements all underneath the boil kettle.

Sounds great. I'd love to see this.

 

[verboten]

. Also I don't like the idea of plunging some electric device in liquid. It feels like throwing a toaster in a bathtub... Also I prefer not having a heating element in direct contact with my wort. Most of the heating elements seem to be made for heating water.

Considering that the resistive element is isolated from the liquid, it’s very unlike throwing a toaster in the bathtub.

The only thing that ever sticks to my boil element is some proteins.
The element immersed in the medium to be heated is the most efficient means to transfer heat. In this case the medium is water, with some dissolved sugar.

it sounds like you have an aluminum kettle, so with the localized heat sources, you may burn things to the bottom of the kettle anyway, but that’s just a guess.

 

[golfindia]

Millions and millions of hot water heaters have holes in their sides which contain submerged elements that run years and years at a time.

 

[millstone]

If you ever decide to be OK with drilling holes in your BK..
There was a guy who did something like what your talking about internally, you can find it here

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/stainless-teapot-heating-elements.481356/

He hasn’t been around since 2018, so you won’t be able to ask any questions. I put one of these guys in a stand alone HERMS unit back in 2014 and it’s still running with no issues unlike what the OP had. I’m running it on 120V, so I’m only getting 1/4 the power but that’s fine for what I’m doing with it.

Good luck with your build, and if I'm off subject, I apologize in advance,

Tom

 

[tinoespinosa69]

I have an Avantco IC3500 INduction, it does tqake 240V, it was under $200. there's an 1800 watt version (110volt) that's about $120. I've used it for a dozen or so brews and it's worked flawlessly so far

What brands are your kettles?
How much time does it take to achieve mash temp (if using all grain) or to boil the wort?

 

[day_trippr]

Spike specifically advertises their tri-clad kettles are compatible with induction cooktops...

Cheers!

 

[tinoespinosa69]

Spike specifically advertises their tri-clad kettles are compatible with induction cooktops...

Cheers!

day_trippr you are totally right
I checked the info on SPike's web page after I sent the post. After reading the info I modified the post with another questions
Thank you for your support

 

[jrgtr42]

What brands are your kettles?
How much time does it take to achieve mash temp (if using all grain) or to boil the wort?

My kettle - I don't remember the brand, but I got it from one of the online HB shops for not much over a hundred bucks. 10 gallon, with spigot. Works pretty well. It's no Anvil or Blichmann or anything, but it works great for me.
I typically heat my strike water in an old Graniteware pot I previously used for boil - it'll get from room temp to strike (roughly 170) in about 20 minutes or so.
I mash in a converted cooler.
I start the first runnings to heat while I batch sparge, and I have to turn it way down to not have it at a fun, hard running boil by the time the sparge is over. So once the rest is in, maybe another 15 minutes to boil.

 

[IslandLizard]

My kettle - I don't remember the brand, but I got it from one of the online HB shops for not much over a hundred bucks. 10 gallon, with spigot. Works pretty well. It's no Anvil or Blichmann or anything, but it works great for me.
I typically heat my strike water in an old Graniteware pot I previously used for boil - it'll get from room temp to strike (roughly 170) in about 20 minutes or so.
I mash in a converted cooler.
I start the first runnings to heat while I batch sparge, and I have to turn it way down to not have it at a fun, hard running boil by the time the sparge is over. So once the rest is in, maybe another 15 minutes to boil.

[EDIT - rephrased] If a magnet doesn't stick it's NOT a conclusive indication of a kettle not being induction capable. IOW:

• If it sticks it is induction compatible, 100%, yes!
• If it doesn't stick it may still work on induction.

So, if a kettle isn't magnetic and the manufacturer doesn't indicate it's induction ready, there's only one way to find out... You need to try it.

I use an IC3500 Avantco induction plate and simply love it. It's being used for a lot of general day to day cooking and heating aside from brewing.
Both my MoreBeer Heavy Duty brew kettles (8 and 15 gallons) with tri-ply bottoms are magnetic and work great on induction.

I also have a (cheaper) 8 gallon Polar Ware single-ply stainless kettle. Although it's non-magnetic (a magnet will not stick), it also works great on that induction plate, no less than the magnetic ones. I use it for making larger batches of stews, stocks, and soups.

All the other stainless cookware we have does not work on it. I bought some extra tri-ply bottomed IKEA pots that are certified "induction ready" and work like a charm. They are magnetic.

 

[virtualpaul]

So I did more thinking and since my kettle base is only 16" wide, using 3 x 8" surface elements would be a bit too wide.

So I could either use 3 x 6" surface elements (4.5 kW at 240volts with 18.75 Amps):

Or I could use 1 x 8" + 2 x 6" surface elements (5.4 kW at 240volts with 22.5 Amps):

I guess I'll call them the BrewBear boilers.

 

[carpathia]

my main concern when I did stovetop on those was the weight limit of the burner itself. You're talking, what, 8 pounds per gallon. GE says some of theirs are rated for only 50 lbs; I've heard others as low as 40. Granted, I do 11 gallons of strike water, which might be high, but I'd be leery nonetheless.

 

[virtualpaul]

my main concern when I did stovetop on those was the weight limit of the burner itself. You're talking, what, 8 pounds per gallon. GE says some of theirs are rated for only 50 lbs; I've heard others as low as 40. Granted, I do 11 gallons of strike water, which might be high, but I'd be leery nonetheless.

I am guessing the 40/50 pounds is per element? The ~90 pounds (11 gallons) would be distributed onto the 3 elements if the surface is leveled, so each element would need to support ~30 pounds. If you fill the kettle before placing it on the stovetop, you would need to be careful when you move it there so that the ~90 pounds is not supported by only one element.

 

[IslandLizard]

How are you going to connect the element prongs to the electric source/controller?

The way you're positioning the connectors they're exposed to direct heat from adjacent elements and radiant heat from the bottom of the kettle. As well as any drips, boilovers, and spills you may encounter.

Also what's their support underneath?
It may also be difficult to keep the tops of the elements all in the same plane for optimum contact with the kettle.

 

[virtualpaul]

How are you going to connect the element prongs to the electric source/controller?

The way you're positioning the connectors they're exposed to direct heat from adjacent elements and radiant heat from the bottom of the kettle. As well as any drips, boilovers, and spills you may encounter.

Also what's their support underneath?
It may also be difficult to keep the tops of the elements all in the same plane for optimum contact with the kettle.

I would use the standard socket for those surface element, they are cheap and easy to find. That's the reason for this design, all the parts are easy to find and cheap so far.

For sure the positioning is wrong, it was just meant to look nice (symmetrical) for now.

I am thinking about the surface and support right now. I have a few ideas but I am trying to find an easy and cheap solution.

 

[IslandLizard]

I would use the standard socket for those surface element, they are cheap and easy to find. That's the reason for this design, all the parts are easy to find and cheap so far.

For sure the positioning is wrong, it was just meant to look nice (symmetrical) for now.

I am thinking about the surface and support right now. I have a few ideas but I am trying to find an easy and cheap solution.

In a regular stove the wiring is in the hollow space underneath the top, shielded from the heat. There are also spill/reflector bowls underneath the elements.

Make sure your wiring can handle the heat from the elements since there's a lot more in your scenario than underneath a stove top.

 

[IslandLizard]

Years ago a local guy was selling his electric brew rig on Craigslist...
He had a 15 or 20 gallon straight-sided stainless welded vessel. He used several spiral elements, ripped out of old stove tops, welded onto the sides of his "kettle" with brackets. Wires going everywhere. Modern ghetto style brewing!

 

[carpathia]

Years ago a local guy was selling his electric brew rig on Craigslist...
He had a 15 or 20 gallon straight-sided stainless welded vessel. He used several spiral elements, ripped out of old stove tops, welded onto the sides of his "kettle" with brackets. Wires going everywhere. Modern ghetto style brewing!

Jesus, and here I am somewhat terrified of my tri-clamp welded water tight element connected to a twistlocking 30 amp because of that tiny, barely preceptible gap between the cable and the prongs.

 

[virtualpaul]

I am still thinking but here is my updated design:

The blue rectangles are ~1" square metal bars that will support the element metal bowl (not shown) underneath the elements. The green rectangle is the same bars but underneath the blue bars. The grey would probably be an aluminum plate with 3 holes for the elements. I have a few ideas for the legs but nothing final.

 

[carpathia]

Are you basically making a custom stove top? Have you thought about induction? While it wouldn't work with a keggle, you can use steel plate and guarantee extremely efficient heating without having to worry about manually balancing three different burners that have a solid lag time with heating up/cooling down.