New Holland Dragon's Milk Clone Recipe

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
Hi all. After introducing New Holland Dragon's Milk to my dad it became his favorite beer. Thus he asked me to brew a clone of it, and teach him how to brew that clone.

So, I searched around for clone recipes and found this http://***********/english-scottish-strong-ale/item/2069-new-holland-brewing-co-dragon’s-milk-clone

However, that recipe did not really satisfy me because the ABV of Dragon's Milk is 10%, requiring a higher OG than listed in that clone recipe. Also a review of this http://newhollandbrew.com/beer/files/2013/01/NewHollandBC_2013_DragonsMilk-Spec.pdf reveals an IBU of 31, a list of the malts, hops, and yeast used by New Holland.

So, I came up with this compromise:

11.5 lbs 2-row (63%)
2 lbs munich (11%)
1.5 lbs flaked barley (8%)
1 lb cane sugar (5%)
14 oz C-80 (5%)
10 oz C-120 (3%)
10 oz Chocolate (3%)
4 oz black patent (1%)

3/4 oz nugget @ 60 min
1 oz glacier @ 10 min

WL American Ale Blend

30.2 IBU
23 SRM
1.091 OG for 5.5 gal @ 78% efficiency (what I actually got)
1.097 OG estimated for 5 gal @ 75% efficiency

1.02 FG ~ 9.7% abv

I did a single infusion mash @ 158

I kept in primary for 20 days and tonight I racked it onto 2 oz of oak chips soaked in 4 oz of Jim Beam, which I had soaking for maybe 10 days (would have gone longer but slipped my mind).

Tasted it and I think it has excellent potential. It has a complex flavor which is rich in chocolate and has a pleasant after taste, seems well balanced and not warm of alcohol at all. I think the smell and taste are pretty similar to what Dragon's Milk must be like before the bourbon aging. If anything, I would have added a bit of dextrine for an increased body, but I won't really know until it's carbed. Only other desire is a little bit darker of a color, although my dad says he is happy with that.

I plan to taste it every two weeks until I reach the oak/bourbon character I want at which time I will bottle and report results after I drink the first.

:mug:
 

GhengisT

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
20
Reaction score
0
I used the extract recipe in BYO for my 2nd attempt at brewing. Soaked the oak chips in Crown Royal overnight. It came out great. I did triple up a 1000ml yeast starter for safe measures.

One of my favorite beers. I've moved into AG brewing & your recipe is looking good. I might just give it a try & let you know how it turns out.
 
OP
OP
M

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
Just tasted the Dragon's Milk Clone after just shy of 2 weeks conditioning with the oak/bourbon. It tastes fantastic, I would like to go downstairs and drink the rest of it. Very smooth, complex, and chocolatey. Great balance of sweet and bitter flavors. I can pick up on the whiskey but it is subtle. I was hoping for more oak/vanilla tones, so I will see if another 3-4 weeks (if I can handle the wait) will bring out some more of the oak character. I am really exited about this beer, I think it will be my best to date.

Cheers
 
OP
OP
M

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
Sorry my reply took so long, have not been on here in a while.

I believe I added the sugar with 10 min left in the boil (15 is a possibility)

I still have it aging on the oak chips, so far 3 and a half weeks. My plan was 4-6 weeks. I will taste it in a few more days and decide if it is ready for bottling.

I did not add vanilla, the idea is that the vanilla notes will come from the oak chips...however, I will revisit the recipe after bottling and initial tasting and if I believe it needs vanilla, I will add it to v.2
 
OP
OP
M

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
I bottled the beer on the 19th which comes out to just shy of 6 weeks. It tastes excellent, really happy with it at this point and I will try one as soon as it is carbonated to get a better idea...tasting very much like the real thing, maybe a little more oak or vanilla, but won't know for sure until its carbed.
 
OP
OP
M

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
Well,

Reporting some bad news...after 4.5 weeks in bottle I have drank two and both have been flat...I don't know what has caused it, I carbonated it the same as every batch I have made. Also seems to have lost some of the flavors that it had when I tasted it prior to bottling...really bummed out, maybe some of the bottles will be alright, but at this point it doesn't look good.

I was hoping to get a good idea of any changes I might need, but its kind of difficult at this point. I would say tho, a vanilla bean would be a good idea, and maybe even a little more oak, but otherwise I think the recipe itself is pretty good.
 
OP
OP
M

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
Alas! I had a 3rd one of these and it was fully carbed! I conclude that I did not give the priming sugar enough time to fully diffuse...hopefully more are carbed than not carbed...but I am going to have to have 2 more to get a better idea ;) I will give another update when I compare it directly to the real thing
 

GhengisT

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
20
Reaction score
0
I carbonated it the same as every batch I have made.

That would be your mistake. Use a priming calculator (http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/) for each batch. Darker brews take longer to condition/carbonate than the lighter stuff. Perfect example, I brewed an Arrogant Bastard clone 2 wks before I brewed a Magic Hat #9 clone. The #9 has been in bottle 2 weeks less than my AB clone. AB is barely carbing, yet I was drinking #9 within 2wks.

Anyway, I brewed this recipe 3wks ago, added Oak chips to the primary on the 2nd wk. I moved the beer to bottling bucket yesterday, boiled up 3.1oz (4gal @ 70F) of dextrose before I realized that I only had 5 bottle caps left. I sanitized a piece of tupperware and put the priming solution in the fridge.

The DM is sitting in my sealed bottling bucket until I can get caps. I figured a secondary wouldn't hurt.

She came out at 8.3% ABV, hints of dark chocolate, vanilla, and oak/whiskey. Near perfect IMO.
 

jarhody

Active Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
Just what I was looking for... Thanks mcleanmj. Think I' m going to plan on aging this one real good. Sounds like a Merry Christmas beer!
 

Newsman

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
884
Location
Cohutta
GhengisT... since yours came out a bit lower ABV than Dragon's Milk, would you recommend boosting the fermentables a bit or what?
 

Newsman

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
884
Location
Cohutta
Does anyone have a "Beer Smith" recipe I can use? I just recently purchased BS and have no real idea how to use it, so if anyone can point to where I can get a copy of a recipe to import and then tweak on my own, I'd appreciate it!: D

Edit... I figured out how to use Beer Smith and came up with a recipe that reaches the 10% ABV. If anyone wants a Beer Smith recipe for this, let me know and I'll be glad to share it.
 

Newsman

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
3,697
Reaction score
884
Location
Cohutta
I'm attaching the recipe I came up with, based on the recipe at the start of this thread. It comes out to 10.1% ABV with similar IBUs, etc. I haven't actually made this yet, but I fully intend to do so. If someone uses this recipe, please let me know how it goes. I was guessing at how much oak cubes to use. I've also been told that if you use oak curls you'll have a better shot at a good "oaky" flavor, but I don't know where to find oak curls, and my local HBS has cubes, so I thought I'd go with that.

View attachment DragonsMilk.bsmx
 
OP
OP
M

mcleanmj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
156
Reaction score
43
Location
Halifax
Update on the beer: came out excellent. Have been drinking it for a few months and it aged very well. Real close to the real thing, don't think i would change anything. Maybe add a vanilla bean if you want or a bit of carapils, but the beer is superb. all who have tasted have loved it.
 

Dinomyte

Active Member
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
41
Reaction score
1
Location
Grand Rapids
Just brewed a Dragon's Milk clone yesterday and I decided to use New Holland's Beer Barrel Bourbon to be the whiskey I use for soaking the oak chips. It's the bourbon they put into the barrels after they age Dragon's Milk in them. Kinda full circle, ya know.

Recipe was similar to the OP's but I used 8 oz Amber Candi Syrup and had to throw in a couple lb's of DME in since I was short of my OG. It's my first time brewing a beer this big and was pretty happy with my mash results. Really looking forward to tasting it!
 

Rivenin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
342
attachment.php


Bam!

IMG_20131228_211608_zps059a7e32 (1).jpg


IMG_20131229_143617_443_zps44417702.jpg
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
So a few weeks ago I brewed my recipe of Dragon's Milk that I put together. When I transferred to secondary on oak, it tasted exactly like what I imagine dragon's milk tastes like before it goes into the barrel. The texture and flavor were awesome. I almost kept some out just to bottle. I have been on Oak and Beer Barrel Bourbon for 2 weeks now, and I plan to let it sit for 2 months before sampling it. Here was my recipe.

14lbs- 2 Row
2.5lbs- Munich
1lb- Caramel 80
1lb- Caramel 120
1lb- Flaked barely
1lb- Chocolate malt
6oz- Debittered black malt
Mashed at 158*
1oz- Glacier @ 60 min
.75oz- Nugget @10min

Wyeast 1272 American Ale II
3oz Oak Cubes soaked in 8oz of bourbon- Added oak and bourbon to secondary
OG- 1.107
FG- 1.029
ABV- 10.4%
IBU-32

I will keep you guys updated with my recipe and let you know how close the final comes out to be.
 

groundchuck

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
90
Reaction score
29
Location
Grand Haven
I plan to brew 10 gallons of this on Saturday.

Just to clarify ........ Does it matter when the sugar is added? Would it go in with the grains to the mash tun? Or is it added to the boil at the end?

Thanks!:mug:
 

poptarts

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
2,032
Reaction score
475
Location
Charlotte
dont add it to the mash, thats just a quick way to loose it in the grain. I vote 15-10min addition
 

groundchuck

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
90
Reaction score
29
Location
Grand Haven
Thanks for the input guys. I will plan to add it in the last 15 minutes of the boil. It should be fun to brew this one .......

:D
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
So a few weeks ago I brewed my recipe of Dragon's Milk that I put together. When I transferred to secondary on oak, it tasted exactly like what I imagine dragon's milk tastes like before it goes into the barrel. The texture and flavor were awesome. I almost kept some out just to bottle. I have been on Oak and Beer Barrel Bourbon for 2 weeks now, and I plan to let it sit for 2 months before sampling it. Here was my recipe.

14lbs- 2 Row
2.5lbs- Munich
1lb- Caramel 80
1lb- Caramel 120
1lb- Flaked barely
1lb- Chocolate malt
6oz- Debittered black malt
Mashed at 158*
1oz- Glacier @ 60 min
.75oz- Nugget @10min

Wyeast 1272 American Ale II
3oz Oak Cubes soaked in 8oz of bourbon- Added oak and bourbon to secondary
OG- 1.107
FG- 1.029
ABV- 10.4%
IBU-32

I will keep you guys updated with my recipe and let you know how close the final comes out to be.

So I couldn't wait much longer and pulled a sample a couple days ago and it was awesome. Had the same sweetness and silky texture that Dragon's Milk has. The oak flavor is just a tad low, so I think another month will take care of that. I added 1 split and scraped vanilla bean soaked in bourbon too.

I think once it bottle conditions for a few months, it will be almost identical.
 

Rivenin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
342

put 500mlof jim beam on some oak last night, gonna dump everything in the keg tonight and let it age for awhile.

almost 2 months in the primary... this should be interesting.
Stuff goes to the wayside when you have a newborn!
 

LoloMT7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
1,917
Reaction score
1,276
Location
Missoula
Think I'll give this a try this weekend. Are you guys cold mashing the Chocolate and Black malts or using in the high temp mash?

DM.jpg
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
So I couldn't wait much longer and pulled a sample a couple days ago and it was awesome. Had the same sweetness and silky texture that Dragon's Milk has. The oak flavor is just a tad low, so I think another month will take care of that. I added 1 split and scraped vanilla bean soaked in bourbon too.

I think once it bottle conditions for a few months, it will be almost identical.

So I finally A/B this against a fresh dragons milk that I just bought. The Dragons Milk has a bit more chocolate flavor and a little less oak flavor than my version. Other than that, it was almost identical. Texture, vanilla flavor, and everything else was dead on. I am going to do it again and up the chocolate malt a bit and not leave it on the oak as long.
 

cookmic5

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Since I'm not set up for AG, I'm going to take a shot at a partial mash version. I've tried to convert the recipes in this thread. Here's what I've come up with:

7.275 lbs DME, Light

Partial Mash in 2.9 gallons of water:
1.875 lbs 2-row
2.5 lbs Munich
1 lb Flaked Barley
1 lb C-80
1 lb C-120
1 lb Chocolate
6 oz. Debittered Black

Any thoughts are welcomed. But I have three questions:
(1) The two recipes in this thread use the same type and amount of hops, but flip when they are added. Any thoughts on why or the reason why one is better to use at the start than the other?
(2) The last two recipes I've used have split up the extract--add half of it with 15 minutes left in the boil. Is there a reason for that? And should I use that technique on this recipe?
(3) I plan on doing a starter. But will I need two yeast packets for this?
 

bobgoats

New Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
formula2fast, I was wondering how you would adjusted your oak cubes and chocolate for a future batch?
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
I have not done it yet, but I think I am going to double the chocolate malt, add 1lb of lactose, and drop to 2.5 oz of oak cubes for 60 days instead of the 3oz for 90 days.

I am hoping to do this over the winter time, but lately I have not had a chance to brew in about 3 months:mad:
 

OHIOSTEVE

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
3,546
Reaction score
80
Location
SIDNEY
I must have gotten a terrible bottle of this stuff....there used to be a local bar that had a beer challenge.. drink all of the beers they had and win a t shirt... I ordered a dragons milk and the waitress said she could climb a ladder and pour it and it still wouldn't get much of a head....I opened the bottle and started to pour it and it foamed over and ran all over the table.. It was so nasty I literally had to chase it with soda and even with that I could not choke it all down. I have been scared to ever try it again.... I am gonna have to find one and give it another chance.
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
You must have had a bad bottle...Give it another chance. It is a fantastic well balanced barrel aged beer. It is one of my favorites only to be rivaled by Bourbon County Stout.
 

koshari

New Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
The recipe worked well with an initial batch. Only criticisms were the sticky result and under carbonation.

It appeared the fermentation halted after 4 days in the fermenter. Considering the required pitch rate of 526 billion cells (Using the excellent BrewersFriend calculator) needed for a 5 gal batch, evidently the single pack of 100 billion cells Wyeast is insufficient.

526 billion cells is available from 15 Liters of starter (4 gal). How can a 5 gal batch of beer need 4 gal of starter? Seems like nonsense.

Can a batch be produced with less starter that is more reasonable?

Thank you for your feedback.
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
Yes.

First of all, if you are making a starter, use the freshest yeast available as that will increase your pitch rate.

Also, i always cold crash my starters, siphon off almost all of the liquid, and then just pitch the slurry. That reduces the dilution of your good wort with the plain starter wort.

The best way to gain cell count is also to use a stir plate. Those pitching rates are easily obtainable with a 4 liter starter doing those steps.
 

koshari

New Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Thank you for the quick response to my question!

My thought was make the necessary 15 L of starter in a 5 gal food container from a single smack pack, and use an aquarium aerator to both circulate the starter and aerate it. Is this approach reasonable?
 

Dinomyte

Active Member
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
41
Reaction score
1
Location
Grand Rapids
I've brewed this clone several times with great results. You will need to pitch about 330-340 billion cells which you can get from a 2 liter starter with a stir plate at an og of 1.036-1.040. 14 liter starter is way, way, way too much. Brewers friend site is good but I think you might have some settings that are a bit off.

If you don't have a stir plate you can agitate frequently to help boost your cell count. If you can't do that, just buy an extra vile and pitch 2-3 of them. This should get you closer.
 

formula2fast

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
261
Reaction score
21
Location
Yorkville
Thank you for the quick response to my question!

My thought was make the necessary 15 L of starter in a 5 gal food container from a single smack pack, and use an aquarium aerator to both circulate the starter and aerate it. Is this approach reasonable?

You will waste so much DME to make a starter that big...You may as well add some hops to it and make a beer, then rack onto the cake if you are going to do a starter that big.

A stir plate ($40-50 from stirstarters.com) and a good pack of yeast and you can get the cell counts you need. I have brewed 14% beers with no problem even using yeast that is a few months old. Best money you can spend is on a stir plate.

I use this calculator for my starters http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
 

GhengisT

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
20
Reaction score
0
I stopped using DME for my starters now that I culture/save the yeast strains. On mash out, I collect about a liter or two of wort to boil seperately, since the full batch boil takes a lot longer. I have a jam-sized mason jar of the yeast I'll be using, and once the liter or two is cooled, I pitch the yeast.

This makes the starter near identical to the full batch. Also, if you time it right, the starter yeast will be approaching full krausen just as you're hitting pitching temps post-boiling of the full batch. Forgot where I read it, but full krausen in the starter is the ideal time to pitch as the yeast are highly active and no longer dormant.
 
Top