New here, I primarily brew Saisons, down in Miami, FL, and have a few questions

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Bad_JuJu_Bad

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So like my annoyingly long winded title suggests I primarily brew saisons thanks to the 9months of brutal heat here in Miami. Anyways I’m looking for strategies to give my table saisons (3.8-4.2% abv) a bigger mouthfeel as they typically finish dry (1.000-1.002) and are quite thin in terms of mouthfeel.

My default grist is typically something like 75% pils, 10% wheat, 5% rye and 10% turbinado sugar. Water profile set to BeerSmith yellow balanced and fermented with OYL-500 Saisonstein’s Monster pitched at 70F and allowed to free rise into the mid 80’s.

My initial idea is to use a higher ratio of adjuncts in the grist, incorporating oats for more mouthfeel and to adjust my water to Yellow Full

What do you guys think?
 

bracconiere

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i'd break style tradition, and make it A LOT darker...like toss in 8oz-1lb crystal 60-120...maybe even some roast barley, black patent....

Welcome! :mug:
 

SaltNeck

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The saison style in general is dry due to the nature of the saison yeasts (eating anything and everything).

It's a very yeast driven style.

Try some of the following:

1.) Up the Cl in the mash water, maybe Na would help but don't go overboard
2.) Mash at the high end of the temperature range (155F-158F)
3.) Try a different saison yeast
4.) Keep mash pH above (or at least) 5.2, preferably 5.4 - 5.6
5.) Dextrin malts like Carapils, Chit Malt, etc... probably won't help due to the nature of the saison yeast but might be worth a try.

(1) A Guide to Saisons and Saison Yeasts – Maltose Falcons
 

SaltNeck

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@bracconiere - Like you said it would break the style as saisons aren't supposed to finish sweet.

I'm not sure the residual sweetness would survive most saison yeasts and if it did would you still have a saison?
 
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Bad_JuJu_Bad

Bad_JuJu_Bad

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i'd break style tradition, and make it A LOT darker...like toss in 8oz-1lb crystal 60-120...maybe even some roast barley, black patent....

Welcome! :mug:
I’ve actually done something dark like this recently and it turned out great! Still fairly traditional though. It’s a spiced Christmas saison (Saison de Noël) that had Carafa II, Caramunich and Special B in it. Actually has a lot more body and sweetness than I hoped for but I’m still pretty proud of it. Gonna be giving them away to friends, family and colleagues for Christmas.

If you ever throw black patent in a saison I’d love to hear how that turns out

Cheers! 🍻
 

bracconiere

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If you ever throw black patent in a saison I’d love to hear how that turns out

i've never brewed a saison, but have a lot of brews under my belt using glucoamylase. with nottingham yeast they usually finished at 1.000-1.002 like yours. but with the dark malts, still had a decent amount of body.

now i'm using APEX San Diego and they go al the way down to 993...so there went the body! but i'm trying to see what i can do about it, so we're working on the same thing right now. :mug:

going to try special b, roast barley, i'm brewing a 100% 10L munich beer as i type this! (need to check the sparge)
 
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Bad_JuJu_Bad

Bad_JuJu_Bad

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The saison style in general is dry due to the nature of the saison yeasts (eating anything and everything).

It's a very yeast driven style.

Try some of the following:

1.) Up the Cl in the mash water, maybe Na would help but don't go overboard
2.) Mash at the high end of the temperature range (155F-158F)
3.) Try a different saison yeast
4.) Keep mash pH above (or at least) 5.2, preferably 5.4 - 5.6
5.) Dextrin malts like Carapils, Chit Malt, etc... probably won't help due to the nature of the saison yeast but might be worth a try.

(1) A Guide to Saisons and Saison Yeasts – Maltose Falcons
1. Definitely gonna do this
2. Not sure this is gonna help for the same reason that Carapils and Chit wouldn’t. Higher mash temps just create a more dextrinous wort no?
3. Considering it for sure
4. I think I usually mash these closer to 5.2-5.3 and without any real reason behind it. I’m pretty ignorant on the science here. Why would a higher mash pH help with body?
Any comment on the high protein malts like oats, wheat and rye?
 

AlexKay

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Flaked oats or rye? The yeast should leave glucans alone.

I've made a dark saison with chocolate rye, pale chocolate, and Carafa Special. It ended up very thin, which seemed even more noticeable given how dark it was.
 

SaltNeck

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1. Definitely gonna do this
2. Not sure this is gonna help for the same reason that Carapils and Chit wouldn’t. Higher mash temps just create a more dextrinous wort no?
3. Considering it for sure
4. I think I usually mash these closer to 5.2-5.3 and without any real reason behind it. I’m pretty ignorant on the science here. Why would a higher mash pH help with body?
Any comment on the high protein malts like oats, wheat and rye?

Will a more dextrinous wort have an effect on mouthfeel?

Mostly depends on the yeast and fermentation parameters.

Will a higher mash pH help with body?

It may help to preserve beta glucans and proteins that a lower pH would work to degrade.

What about oats, wheat and rye?

You mention that you already have wheat and rye in the recipe so try modifying some of the other parameters first to try and preserve what you already have.
 

Falstaff

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Be careful of too much oats. They seem to counterintuitively kill head retention! I switched to using wheat, myself.
 
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Bad_JuJu_Bad

Bad_JuJu_Bad

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Flaked oats or rye? The yeast should leave glucans alone.

I've made a dark saison with chocolate rye, pale chocolate, and Carafa Special. It ended up very thin, which seemed even more noticeable given how dark it was.
Oooh what do you think the chocolate rye did for the beer? I’ve been curious about that malt for a while now
 

CascadesBrewer

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I’m looking for strategies to give my table saisons (3.8-4.2% abv) a bigger mouthfeel as they typically finish dry (1.000-1.002) and are quite thin in terms of mouthfeel.
I would drop the sugar. I have been brewing Saisons lately. With the way some Saison yeast attenuates, it is hard to keep them under 6.5%. I dropped the sugar from my Saison recipe and they are still plenty dry and refreshing.
 

AlexKay

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Oooh what do you think the chocolate rye did for the beer? I’ve been curious about that malt for a while now
Roast flavors without astringency, I think. The dark saison was pretty smooth, and if it had had a little more mouthfeel it would have been smooooth.

I’m using chocolate rye in everything nowadays, and feel it gives a smoother taste than chocolate malt. Maybe a little bit of rye’s edginess, though it’s often hard to tell when there are a lot of dark flavors.
 

jrgtr42

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I made a saison early this summer. it was Pilsner, vienna and rye malt, plus table sugar.
OG 1.053, FG 1.003, it had no lack of mouthfeel.
WEish I could say what was going on with OPs brew, but IMO caramel malts aren;t the way to go to stay within style. |Oats may help out some. I'm also not as familar with the water profiles - I just use tap water (ducks) and |I have no issues with my brews - maybe I'm just lucky that way, but I am starting the dive into water profiles.
 

CascadesBrewer

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Also, if you are an AHA member, a friend won AHA Gold with a 1.043 OG, 4.6% ABV Saison: Birra Corina Saison

It was a 3 gallon batch. 60 minute mash at 156F with the following grain bill. I have not done the math but that is a high percentage of Rye and Wheat.
• 3.42 lb. (1.55 kg) Avangard Pilsner malt
• 1 lb. (454 g) Briess rye malt
• 1 lb. (454 g) Briess red wheat malt

I never tasted the beer myself, but I have been tempted to brew it.

I plan to brew a Saison in the next week with Lallemand Farmhouse. It is a non-diastaticus Saison yeast. You might think that would leave behind a little more body or provide more options. I am curious how good of a Saison that yeast provides. I plan to use the same recipe as the batch I just bottled that was fermented with WLP565.
 

monkeymath

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I think a small dry-hop - like 1.5-2 g/l - can add to the perceived body. Use a more subtle variety, like a noble hop or Saaz, if you don't want to drown those beautiful esters. Hallertauer Mittelfrüh, with its floral nose, works particularly well.

Also, as has been mentioned, drop the sugar and add more malt to give you the same abv.
 

shoreman

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I make a lot of these table saisons and I would suggest to try using flaked rye or rye at different amounts. I’ve also been incorporating light Munich into the grist to get a better malt profile.

You could also play with your water profile, I started adding calcium chloride to my session beers and saw a big improvement- learned about it in Jennifer Talleys book:
 
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Bad_JuJu_Bad

Bad_JuJu_Bad

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Funny that you mention this. I’ve actually just read a good bit of this book (skipped the business/economics portions for now) which is what got me to consider changing my water profile from “Yellow Balanced” to “Yellow Full” as the latter has a Chloride to Sulfate ratio which is much more skewed towards Chlorides for a bigger mouthfeel.

Have you brewed any of the recipes from the back of the book? Got any favorites?
 

Beernik

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I would start with the higher mash temp and cut the sugar suggestions. Maybe switch to a torrified wheat instead of malted wheat.

If you still want more body after those, the try adding Carapils or caramel malts.
 
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Bad_JuJu_Bad

Bad_JuJu_Bad

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Also, if you are an AHA member, a friend won AHA Gold with a 1.043 OG, 4.6% ABV Saison: Birra Corina Saison

It was a 3 gallon batch. 60 minute mash at 156F with the following grain bill. I have not done the math but that is a high percentage of Rye and Wheat.
• 3.42 lb. (1.55 kg) Avangard Pilsner malt
• 1 lb. (454 g) Briess rye malt
• 1 lb. (454 g) Briess red wheat malt

I never tasted the beer myself, but I have been tempted to brew it.

I plan to brew a Saison in the next week with Lallemand Farmhouse. It is a non-diastaticus Saison yeast. You might think that would leave behind a little more body or provide more options. I am curious how good of a Saison that yeast provides. I plan to use the same recipe as the batch I just bottled that was fermented with WLP565.
1.043 OG and it only came out to 4.3% abv? What yeast did he use? That’s shockingly low attenuation for your typical saison yeast. If I made a 1.043 OG saison with OYL-500 it would probably clock in closer to 5.4% abv
 

shetc

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Hey Julian, our Winter Solstice party is at Unbranded on 12/12 at 1 pm. C'mon on down.
 

CascadesBrewer

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1.043 OG and it only came out to 4.3% abv? What yeast did he use? That’s shockingly low attenuation for your typical saison yeast. If I made a 1.043 OG saison with OYL-500 it would probably clock in closer to 5.4% abv
4.6%...It was WLP565. OG: 1.043 to FG: 1.008 seems pretty reasonable with a high mash temp and no sugar. I recently bottled a Saison fermented with WLP565 that went from 1.055 to 1.008 (85% attenuation). Mashed at 149F with a grain bill that was 73% Pils, 18% Spelt, 9% Munich I.

I am not sure about typical attenuation with OYL-500 Saisonstein. I brewed 2 batches with that yeast last year. Both had sugar in the bill and dropped to around 1.002. Belle Saison is another yeast that seems to always drop down close to 1.000.
 
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