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Leblais

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So I have been trying to replicate a NEIPA style beer similar to one that Trillium/Treehouse etc would make. I know there are other threads on this here and I have read most of them several times but they dated/long and hard to follow at times, so I figured it may be time to start a new one.

This last batch I had made tasted great at day 3 after kegging. It was not perfect but it was VERY good. Hazy, hoppy (but not bitter), had great mouthfeel, smelled of orange juice and mango and had all the tropical fruit flavors you may expect from this style of beer that was done well. I actually brought some to a friend and he asked me if I was messing with him and if it really was a Treehouse beer.

Fast forward about a week later and I find that it has lost a bit of haze (like maybe 1/2 as hazy?) and a lot of flavor. I mean, it is still super flavorful but not that treehouse kind. It almost reminds me now of ruffled feathers NEIPA by stony creek, where the tropical notes kinda remind you of fruity pebbles (not off putting at all either) and a little less complex. Am I making any sense here?

So we can discuss, I will share my 10 gallon brewing process.
My grain bill was pretty high on oats (4lbs) and white wheat (3.5lbs) (yes I know that treehouse and trilllium do not need these to make their beers viscous but thats what I did). I pretty much started with one of the treehouse clones I found online that included Golden promise , carapils etc. I mashed around 154 F. I boiled for 60 mins. Had a small 1 oz hop addition for 60 mins and then did 7 oz of hops at 5 mins then did a whirlpool at 110 F for about 15 mins with 10 ounces.

I cooled the wort, transferred to my SS Brewtech Chronical BME, where it was aerated on the way in and then I pitched the Imperial Juice A38 yeast. The Chronical is not being pressurized during fermentation. I did a break drop out of the conical on day 3 to get rid of all the hop and other break that had started to thicken on the bottom of the conical. After day 8 or so, I began to ramp temps up 1 degree per day. At about 1.015 SG (about 3 or so from expected terminal gravity), I dry hopped with 6 ounces of hops. I did this intentionally do make sure there would still be c02 to push out any O2 that had found its way in from my hop addition. I know there was still activity because my blowoff was still producing bubbles. The wort fermented out, as anticipated to approx 1.013 (I use a tilt now, which I LOVE). I then connected positive C02 pressure to the Chronical and began to crash cool to 32 F. After day 2 I dumped the trub. I tried a sample off the chronical and it was very good... tasted almost like "GREEN" and had a little hop burn, but really just a SMALL amount of it, which was expected as the sample port was close to the trub. I waited one additional day before then pressure transferred it to a keg. Keg sat, hooked up to the keggerator for 2 or 3 days before the pressure was equalized. At this point, the beer was pouring very hazy, with NO apparent particulates, no real hop burn, the head was amazing, the aromas where amazing. I felt I had NAILED IT! Fast forward to 2 weeks and now I have a VERY GOOD BEER, but not the beer I had 2 weeks ago.

I did not do much in the way of water balancing. I have very neutral water. In the future I will try to get my water profile closer to this:
  • Sulfates – 150PPM
  • Chloride – 100PPM
  • Calcium – 20PPM
  • Magnesium – 20PPM
  • Estimated Mash pH – 5.2
As a matter of fact, I have another batch in now where I did match similar to this water profile. That said, can anyone lend any info on what has happened here? Any advice? Has anyone actually NAILED IT? As always, I love being a participant, mentor and student on this forum. It has been so much help over the past almost 2 decades! Thanks guys!
 

leesmith

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So I have been trying to replicate a NEIPA style beer similar to one that Trillium/Treehouse etc would make. I know there are other threads on this here and I have read most of them several times but they dated/long and hard to follow at times, so I figured it may be time to start a new one.

This last batch I had made tasted great at day 3 after kegging. It was not perfect but it was VERY good. Hazy, hoppy (but not bitter), had great mouthfeel, smelled of orange juice and mango and had all the tropical fruit flavors you may expect from this style of beer that was done well. I actually brought some to a friend and he asked me if I was messing with him and if it really was a Treehouse beer.

Fast forward about a week later and I find that it has lost a bit of haze (like maybe 1/2 as hazy?) and a lot of flavor. I mean, it is still super flavorful but not that treehouse kind. It almost reminds me now of ruffled feathers NEIPA by stony creek, where the tropical notes kinda remind you of fruity pebbles (not off putting at all either) and a little less complex. Am I making any sense here?

So we can discuss, I will share my 10 gallon brewing process.
My grain bill was pretty high on oats (4lbs) and white wheat (3.5lbs) (yes I know that treehouse and trilllium do not need these to make their beers viscous but thats what I did). I pretty much started with one of the treehouse clones I found online that included Golden promise , carapils etc. I mashed around 154 F. I boiled for 60 mins. Had a small 1 oz hop addition for 60 mins and then did 7 oz of hops at 5 mins then did a whirlpool at 110 F for about 15 mins with 10 ounces.

I cooled the wort, transferred to my SS Brewtech Chronical BME, where it was aerated on the way in and then I pitched the Imperial Juice A38 yeast. The Chronical is not being pressurized during fermentation. I did a break drop out of the conical on day 3 to get rid of all the hop and other break that had started to thicken on the bottom of the conical. After day 8 or so, I began to ramp temps up 1 degree per day. At about 1.015 SG (about 3 or so from expected terminal gravity), I dry hopped with 6 ounces of hops. I did this intentionally do make sure there would still be c02 to push out any O2 that had found its way in from my hop addition. I know there was still activity because my blowoff was still producing bubbles. The wort fermented out, as anticipated to approx 1.013 (I use a tilt now, which I LOVE). I then connected positive C02 pressure to the Chronical and began to crash cool to 32 F. After day 2 I dumped the trub. I tried a sample off the chronical and it was very good... tasted almost like "GREEN" and had a little hop burn, but really just a SMALL amount of it, which was expected as the sample port was close to the trub. I waited one additional day before then pressure transferred it to a keg. Keg sat, hooked up to the keggerator for 2 or 3 days before the pressure was equalized. At this point, the beer was pouring very hazy, with NO apparent particulates, no real hop burn, the head was amazing, the aromas where amazing. I felt I had NAILED IT! Fast forward to 2 weeks and now I have a VERY GOOD BEER, but not the beer I had 2 weeks ago.

I did not do much in the way of water balancing. I have very neutral water. In the future I will try to get my water profile closer to this:
  • Sulfates – 150PPM
  • Chloride – 100PPM
  • Calcium – 20PPM
  • Magnesium – 20PPM
  • Estimated Mash pH – 5.2
As a matter of fact, I have another batch in now where I did match similar to this water profile. That said, can anyone lend any info on what has happened here? Any advice? Has anyone actually NAILED IT? As always, I love being a participant, mentor and student on this forum. It has been so much help over the past almost 2 decades! Thanks guys!

Ferment the beer all the way out and then dry hop. No need to do it during fermentation....you loose hop character to the yeast dropping out taking those oils with it. The less yeast during dry hop the better....so cold crash and then dry hop.

I’d assume your serving keg was purged of all co2 also?
 

brew703

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About every other brew is a NEIPA for me. My process is similar to yours. I dry hop at the very end of fermentation as I honestly do not find any difference when I dry hop during active fermentation.

My NIEPA's turn out hazy, not murky as some I've seen. But they usually clear some by the time the keg kicks, which is usually at about the 1 month mark.

I don't worry about what it looks like (as long as it's not turning oxidized). I prefer bright and a little hazy vs dull and hazy. I'm good with clear as well.

I had one NEIPA i brewed and it took me almost three months to finish the keg. The color barely changed in the time frame but it did lose some of the aroma/flavor. I shook the keg and some of the flavor/aroma returned but not like it was at day 1. Still very good and drinkable.

I don't think home brewers can replicate a commercial product to the point where it will be indistinguishable between the two. I just focus on making a very good/great NEIPA, one I enjoy looking at in the glass and drinking. I usually stick to basically the same grain bill and change the hops and yeast. My go to yeast has been OYL091 and OYL052. Both have produced some great beers.
 
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Leblais

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Not the best picture but this is what it looked like pre carbonation​
About every other brew is a NEIPA for me. My process is similar to yours. I dry hop at the very end of fermentation as I honestly do not find any difference when I dry hop during active fermentation.

My NIEPA's turn out hazy, not murky as some I've seen. But they usually clear some by the time the keg kicks, which is usually at about the 1 month mark.

I don't worry about what it looks like (as long as it's not turning oxidized). I prefer bright and a little hazy vs dull and hazy. I'm good with clear as well.

I had one NEIPA i brewed and it took me almost three months to finish the keg. The color barely changed in the time frame but it did lose some of the aroma/flavor. I shook the keg and some of the flavor/aroma returned but not like it was at day 1. Still very good and drinkable.

I don't think home brewers can replicate a commercial product to the point where it will be indistinguishable between the two. I just focus on making a very good/great NEIPA, one I enjoy looking at in the glass and drinking. I usually stick to basically the same grain bill and change the hops and yeast. My go to yeast has been OYL091 and OYL052. Both have produced some great beers.
Thanks for your input. I honestly do not care what the beer looks like, especially if it is hazy or not, but I included that info as a descriptor in case it matters, which I believe it does. I guess my beer originally was murky, I mean like treehouse murky. Now its just "hazy". I have some bad pictures I will try to upload later (not good ones) but maybe it will help to explain the differences. My point though is that as the the "murky"-ness of the beer went away, so did all that deep fruit (fresh hop) flavor. I also would like to note that there was no noticeable settling happening in the keg, so I dont think that particles of the hops created this murkness. And, as I mentioned before, the beer is still good... just not amazing anymore. As far as not being able to replicate commerial products, I have to ask WHY NOT??? I am using equipment and procedures that are similar to commercial. If I am not, then how can I do it? I really would like to try and perfect this treehouse/trillium style, not the other commercially available NEIPA styles that you can find at the stores. Those are good, and mine is just as good, but they clearly are missing something that treehouse/trillium (and the like) are producing.
 

leesmith

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Not the best picture but this is what it looked like pre carbonation​


Thanks for your input. I honestly do not care what the beer looks like, especially if it is hazy or not, but I included that info as a descriptor in case it matters, which I believe it does. I guess my beer originally was murky, I mean like treehouse murky. Now its just "hazy". I have some bad pictures I will try to upload later (not good ones) but maybe it will help to explain the differences. My point though is that as the the "murky"-ness of the beer went away, so did all that deep fruit (fresh hop) flavor. I also would like to note that there was no noticeable settling happening in the keg, so I dont think that particles of the hops created this murkness. And, as I mentioned before, the beer is still good... just not amazing anymore. As far as not being able to replicate commerial products, I have to ask WHY NOT??? I am using equipment and procedures that are similar to commercial. If I am not, then how can I do it? I really would like to try and perfect this treehouse/trillium style, not the other commercially available NEIPA styles that you can find at the stores. Those are good, and mine is just as good, but they clearly are missing something that treehouse/trillium (and the like) are producing.
Let the beer get to final gravity.

Cold crash to mid 50’s with a small amount of co2 head pressure to avoid sucking back o2.

After 48 hours dump what has settled.

Turn off the fermentation temp control or warm at least into low 60’s. While applying a small amount of gas...say 1-2psi....pop the lid and dry hop. Close it back up and purge if you can.

After a couple days chill to serving temp for a couple days under pressure and then transfer to co2 purged keg and carbonate as usual.

Hop aroma and flavor will last longer.
 

brew703

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Not the best picture but this is what it looked like pre carbonation​


Thanks for your input. I honestly do not care what the beer looks like, especially if it is hazy or not, but I included that info as a descriptor in case it matters, which I believe it does. I guess my beer originally was murky, I mean like treehouse murky. Now its just "hazy". I have some bad pictures I will try to upload later (not good ones) but maybe it will help to explain the differences. My point though is that as the the "murky"-ness of the beer went away, so did all that deep fruit (fresh hop) flavor. I also would like to note that there was no noticeable settling happening in the keg, so I dont think that particles of the hops created this murkness. And, as I mentioned before, the beer is still good... just not amazing anymore. As far as not being able to replicate commerial products, I have to ask WHY NOT??? I am using equipment and procedures that are similar to commercial. If I am not, then how can I do it? I really would like to try and perfect this treehouse/trillium style, not the other commercially available NEIPA styles that you can find at the stores. Those are good, and mine is just as good, but they clearly are missing something that treehouse/trillium (and the like) are producing.
Didn't mean to imply replicating commercial products can't be done. But IMO to do that would mean doing basically what the commercial breweries do, including hop and dry hop techniques. I'm sure alot can get close and I've been somewhat close but down here in the south we don't get many of the top NEIPA's here. So nothing to compare to except what I've tried at the local breweries.
None from the east coast.
But it will be hard to determine why one brew changes to the next even using the same grain bill/hops/yeast.
Could be water.
It's still fun and as long as I don't have to dump a beer then it was a success.

Maybe try treating your water following what Braufessor outlines in his post and see what happens.
 
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Leblais

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Let the beer get to final gravity.



Cold crash to mid 50’s with a small amount of co2 head pressure to avoid sucking back o2.
------------>I am cold crashing with C02 to avoid suckback and O2.



After 48 hours dump what has settled.
------------->I am dumping the settled trub.



Turn off the fermentation temp control or warm at least into low 60’s. While applying a small amount of gas...say 1-2psi....pop the lid and dry hop. Close it back up and purge if you can.
--------------> This is contrary to my investigation which shows you should dryhop a few gravity points before the terminal gravity to avoid O2. By doing this, you not only have positive pressure so you dont need to add any, but you also have some active yeast that could clean up any O2 that MAY somehow have gotten into the wort from the hops. The continued fermentation and CO2 buildup pushes out any O2 that could have entered the chamber at this point. I think either way we do it, they are accomplishing a similar(if not the same thing). So no changes there to be made (or improved) in my opinion.



After a couple days chill to serving temp for a couple days under pressure and then transfer to co2 purged keg and carbonate as usual.
-------------->I do exactly this!!!!

Hop aroma and flavor will last longer.
---------------> I seem to have flavor and aroma, but just not the same flavor and aroma I had
 
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Leblais

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Didn't mean to imply replicating commercial products can't be done. But IMO to do that would mean doing basically what the commercial breweries do, including hop and dry hop techniques. I'm sure alot can get close and I've been somewhat close but down here in the south we don't get many of the top NEIPA's here. So nothing to compare to except what I've tried at the local breweries.
None from the east coast.
But it will be hard to determine why one brew changes to the next even using the same grain bill/hops/yeast.
Could be water.
It's still fun and as long as I don't have to dump a beer then it was a success.

Maybe try treating your water following what Braufessor outlines in his post and see what happens.

Yeah......In the processes of doing some water treatments for this next brew based on the figures I showed above.
 
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Leblais

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Ferment the beer all the way out and then dry hop. No need to do it during fermentation....you loose hop character to the yeast dropping out taking those oils with it. The less yeast during dry hop the better....so cold crash and then dry hop.

I’d assume your serving keg was purged of all co2 also?
Have you tried it the way I am doing it? It is called biotransformation and supposedly has several advantages over simply dry hopping. Its controversial I guess. I typically had done it the way you explain, but I tried it this new way this last time to see if I could get a better result. It seemed like it worked, at first anyway.... then it changed after about 7 to 14 days after being kegged. How would hop character be lost by yeast dropping out? Are you saying hop oils bond to yeast???
 
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Leblais

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Ferment the beer all the way out and then dry hop. No need to do it during fermentation....you loose hop character to the yeast dropping out taking those oils with it. The less yeast during dry hop the better....so cold crash and then dry hop.

I’d assume your serving keg was purged of all co2 also?
Have you tried it the way I am doing it? It is called biotransformation and supposedly has several advantages over simply dry hopping. Its controversial I guess. I typically had done it the way you explain, but I tried it this new way this last time to see if I could get a better result. It seemed like it worked, at first anyway.... then it changed after about 7 to 14 days after being kegged. How would hop character be lost by yeast dropping out? Are you saying hop oils bond to yeast???
If that's not a typo, it's way too low on Calcium, 150-200 ppm makes more sense. If not a typo, what other cations are you adding through your mineral additions?
Hmm... I will revisit the page... May have been a typo but here is what I did!
 

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Leblais

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And here is a picture of what it looked like after kegging...
Wow.... I guess I needed to change the water on those flowers or just toss them at that point!! lol

I wish the picture had more beer in it so you could see how opaque it was
 
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Leblais

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Here is a picture of what it looks like now--- I put a light right behind it though, so don't get confused and that it is glowing! ;)
 

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CascadesBrewer

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I am not an NEIPA brewing expert...there are just so many on tap I don't have a lot of motivation to brew them myself. I don't really like murky beers, and I would say I don't care about haze, but I have noticed that with the few Hazy IPAs I have made, as the haze dropped so did the hop flavors.

Everybody seems to have their one trick to a hazy beer...maybe 10% flaked oats, dry hopping during fermentation, using a specific yeast, etc...but then you hear of commercial breweries that make hazy beers that do none of those. Your process seems pretty solid as far as I understand.

To some extent, I wonder if it is just something that happens as a beer ages cold. I recently trying swirling a keg that had started to clear, and once again it had those hoppy flavors that I remembered. It is cheating to rouse? Is there some secret combo that will create the permanent haze that will keep hop flavors in suspension for over a month?

Here are some pics of the beer before and after I roused up the haze: https://imgur.com/a/IDyXD11
 
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Leblais

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I am not an NEIPA brewing expert...there are just so many on tap I don't have a lot of motivation to brew them myself. I don't really like murky beers, and I would say I don't care about haze, but I have noticed that with the few Hazy IPAs I have made, as the haze dropped so did the hop flavors.

Everybody seems to have their one trick to a hazy beer...maybe 10% flaked oats, dry hopping during fermentation, using a specific yeast, etc...but then you hear of commercial breweries that make hazy beers that do none of those. Your process seems pretty solid as far as I understand.

To some extent, I wonder if it is just something that happens as a beer ages cold. I recently trying swirling a keg that had started to clear, and once again it had those hoppy flavors that I remembered. It is cheating to rouse? Is there some secret combo that will create the permanent haze that will keep hop flavors in suspension for over a month?

Here are some pics of the beer before and after I roused up the haze: https://imgur.com/a/IDyXD11

how did your El Dorado/Azacca/Lemon Drop come out? I have yet to use any of those... (I know, I am a little behind the hop times)
 

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What yeast did you use? I brewed all my early NEIPAs with 1318 and they stayed hazy (and tasty) for 6 weeks. I brewed my last one with 1450 (Denny's Favorite) and it dropped clear as a bell after about 10 days. I made one other change with that in that I used cryo hops for my biotransformation hop addition. I've read that it has less polyphenols so I'm speculating that could be part of it.

That beer was simply spectacular (like one of the best I've ever had....of commercial or homebrew) for about 4 days. Then it started to clear and, as it cleared, it lost some of its flavor and aroma. Out of curiousity, I swirled the keg and it was back to full glory. Strange beer as it had no hop bite, but holy crap was it loaded with flavor.

I moved this summer so I haven't brewed a beer since, but my next one will be the same recipe with a couple changes. I'm going back to 1318 and I'm going to make my first dry hop with regular pellets, then do the cryo for the final dry hop.
 

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Biotransformation has nothing to do with haze. It has to do with glycosides and terpenoids that contribute to flavor/aroma.
 
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Leblais

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I used imperial organic yeast called juice. The keg probably had like a half gallon of beer left but I just shook the keg and did a quick pour and big difference. It came out turbid. I don't know why I didn't try that before but I guess I will need to do this from time to time in the future. Right now it was overwhelming and had a small amount of hop burn so not good, but I think after every gallon or so, it may need a shake and it may keep it consistent throughout the whole keg, instead of getting a ton of it like I am now. I assume since I wasn't getting any clogging that it was not settling and that it was just going away somehow. I didn't realize that there was that much actual hop matter in there producing the haze. Huh... Lesson learned. I will be sure to shake on the next one and I will update on it
 

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Didn't mean to imply replicating commercial products can't be done. But IMO to do that would mean doing basically what the commercial breweries do, including hop and dry hop techniques. I'm sure alot can get close and I've been somewhat close but down here in the south we don't get many of the top NEIPA's here. So nothing to compare to except what I've tried at the local breweries.
None from the east coast.
But it will be hard to determine why one brew changes to the next even using the same grain bill/hops/yeast.
Could be water.
It's still fun and as long as I don't have to dump a beer then it was a success.

Maybe try treating your water following what Braufessor outlines in his post and see what happens.
Sorry for barging in but you mention the lack of NEIPAs in the south hence a shortage to compare. Surely you have tried Ghost in the Machine (parish Brewing)? I don't know from experience but I imagine this would be close and my real question is do you have any knowledge of successful cloning of this beer?
 

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how did your El Dorado/Azacca/Lemon Drop come out? I have yet to use any of those... (I know, I am a little behind the hop times)
I really like it. I am trying to learn some of these new hops and to try something other than just Citra and Mosaic. It really was just based on a commercial beer that I enjoyed that listed those hops, so I figured I would give it a try. Leans more toward the fruity/candy spectrum of hop flavors. I recently kicked that keg...but that means I have room for the Rye Porter in the fermenter.
 

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Lesson learned. I will be sure to shake on the next one and I will update on it
NEIPA seems to be a style that people apply all these rules to and I am sure that giving a shake to a keg of an NEIPA will get your club member card revoked...but in the future I am not above giving my keg a swirl once a week if it helps to keep more flavors in the beer. I also wonder if having my beer fridge down in the 34F range caused my beers to clear.
 

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My 2cts.

To achieve haze stability is something of an art. There is many factors influencing it. It's a complex subject i'm still researching. There are quiet a few research papers out on this. I recommend looking into wheat beer research.
Here a few things I've discovered so far.

Am I reading 6oz of dry hops in 10 gallons? Way too little.
You dont need to go high as the pro but you definately want to go high enough to get enough interaction of the hops with proteins to form that thick haze complex.

Too much or too little proteins will make a clear beer.
Source of proteins matter, some year certain protein rich grains will clear up faster.

+1 for yeast dropping out the flavor and haze. Though I have to note many neipa from pro that are great with the first carefull poor can turn bad when pooring the bottom of the can.
In the bottom of the can rests either a bunch of yeast that if poured into the glass will make it substantially more hazy but also more lingering bitter from the yeast.
Other cans (the ones I think are done right) you poor just a bunch of proteins and hop oils.. Which may make the beer more hazy and sometimes more tasty but won't give it that lingering yeast bite.
 
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My 2 cts

If the IPA beer is clear then it will taste good and there will be no issues. Cheers ;-)
 
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Leblais

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My 2 cts

If the IPA beer is clear then it will taste good and there will be no issues. Cheers ;-)
LOL.. yeah, I used to agree with that. That is, of course, before the NEIPA sub style, if you want to call it that.
 
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Leblais

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Am I reading 6oz of dry hops in 10 gallons? Way too little.
You dont need to go high as the pro but you definately want to go high enough to get enough interaction of the hops with proteins to form that thick haze complex.-----------------------------------How much do you recommend? Note that of the 6 Oz of hops I dry hopped with, 4 of those were cryo hops, which effectively are 2 times as powerful as typical hops. I assume that puts me in the 10 oz range for 10 gallons, or 1 oz per gallon of dry hopping. You think that more is needed?

Also, I whirlpooled and late hopped with another 17 ounces of hops!!! That is a TON of hops for 10 gallons, or am I just wrong? I mean, a total of 28 oz of hops in a 10 gallon batch seems excessive to me .... Correct me if I am wrong of course!
 
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Leblais

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That was difficult to see my response (above) due to my mistake of putting my response in the quote window, so here it is in an easy to see way:

How much (hops) do you recommend (for dryhopping)? Note that of the 6 Oz of hops I dry hopped with, 4 of those were cryo hops, which effectively are 2 times as powerful as typical hops. I assume that puts me in the 10 oz range for 10 gallons, or 1 oz per gallon of dry hopping. You think that more is needed?

Also, I whirlpooled and late hopped with another 17 ounces of hops!!! That is a TON of hops for 10 gallons, or am I just wrong? I mean, a total of 28 oz of hops in a 10 gallon batch seems excessive to me .... Correct me if I am wrong of course!
 

IslandLizard

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12-14 oz in a 5 gallon batch is pretty average. 24-28 oz in 10 gallons would be along those lines.

I don't do any late hops, 8 grams of Warrior for bittering at 60', WP @170F for 10' and WP @150F for 30'. That's for 5 gallons.
 

day_trippr

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fwiw, my typical 10 gallon neipas use 20 ounces of hops in total: one ounce of high AA% for 60, 3 ounces of juicy hops at 5, another 4 ounces whirlpooling at ~160°F for 20 minutes plus cool-down time, and a total of 12 ounces split in two rounds for dry hopping...

Cheers!
 

beervoid

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That was difficult to see my response (above) due to my mistake of putting my response in the quote window, so here it is in an easy to see way:

How much (hops) do you recommend (for dryhopping)? Note that of the 6 Oz of hops I dry hopped with, 4 of those were cryo hops, which effectively are 2 times as powerful as typical hops. I assume that puts me in the 10 oz range for 10 gallons, or 1 oz per gallon of dry hopping. You think that more is needed?

Also, I whirlpooled and late hopped with another 17 ounces of hops!!! That is a TON of hops for 10 gallons, or am I just wrong? I mean, a total of 28 oz of hops in a 10 gallon batch seems excessive to me .... Correct me if I am wrong of course!
Cryo makes clearer beer. And I think high whirlpool loads are a waste of hops. Better off moving those to the dry hop.
 

beervoid

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Please explain, I don’t understand how Cryo makes clearer beer?
Probably because of the lower vegetal matter / polyphenol content. You can check scott janish's blog he did a cryo comparison beer.
 

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My 2cts.

To achieve haze stability is something of an art. There is many factors influencing it. It's a complex subject i'm still researching. There are quiet a few research papers out on this. I recommend looking into wheat beer research.
Here a few things I've discovered so far.

Am I reading 6oz of dry hops in 10 gallons? Way too little.
You dont need to go high as the pro but you definately want to go high enough to get enough interaction of the hops with proteins to form that thick haze complex.

Too much or too little proteins will make a clear beer.
Source of proteins matter, some year certain protein rich grains will clear up faster.

+1 for yeast dropping out the flavor and haze. Though I have to note many neipa from pro that are great with the first carefull poor can turn bad when pooring the bottom of the can.
In the bottom of the can rests either a bunch of yeast that if poured into the glass will make it substantially more hazy but also more lingering bitter from the yeast.
Other cans (the ones I think are done right) you poor just a bunch of proteins and hop oils.. Which may make the beer more hazy and sometimes more tasty but won't give it that lingering yeast bite.
I wouldn't worry about achieving haze stability. I'd pursue flavor stability. If the haze comes with it, no problem, but if you can have the beer drop clear but still taste as glorious, why worry about it?
 

beervoid

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I wouldn't worry about achieving haze stability. I'd pursue flavor stability. If the haze comes with it, no problem, but if you can have the beer drop clear but still taste as glorious, why worry about it?
There is a point beyond aesthetics. Proper made haze contributes to body, aroma and flavor by holding the right stuff in suspension.
 
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Leblais

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12-14 oz in a 5 gallon batch is pretty average. 24-28 oz in 10 gallons would be along those lines.

I don't do any late hops, 8 grams of Warrior for bittering at 60', WP @170F for 10' and WP @150F for 30'. That's for 5 gallons.
That is pretty much where I am then!
 

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