New Brewer -- What if I don't actually Lager my Lager?

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hufcat05

hufcat05

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Hello all,

First time poster here. I've done a ton of research on this topic and couldn't find a decent answer so I decided to sign up and post a question!

I'm a new brewer and I'm doing research into what I'd like to do for my second batch. (First batch I tried BrewNinja's spotted cow clone converted to a partial mash https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=3188324&postcount=249 -- Totally nailed it)

For my next batch I'd like to try and make a Munich Helles Lager. My issue is that I don't have any means of temperature control for my fermenter. I have a spot in my house that, during the winter, is consistently between 50-55 degrees which is perfect for lager yeast, however I don't have any means of lowering the temperature below 50-55 degrees.

So my question is what would happen to my beer if I never lower it to lagering temperatures? If I do go through with this, what can I do to prevent off flavors from occurring?

Thanks for your help in advance!
 
What about outside? Submerged in a bucket of water will help with temperature swings. You can also add ice to lower the water temperature. Wet t-shirt and blowing a fan on it can also help cool it down.

Although lagering temperatures should be 40 - 50 degrees, sometimes colder, you can lager warmer. Warmer temperatures won't necessarily ruin your beer, it just won't be as 'smooth' as it would if it were colder. Warmer temperatures contribute to esters although at 50 degrees you should be okay.
 
FloppyKnockers said:
What about outside? Submerged in a bucket of water will help with temperature swings. You can also add ice to lower the water temperature. Wet t-shirt and blowing a fan on it can also help cool it down.

Although lagering temperatures should be 40 - 50 degrees, sometimes colder, you can lager warmer. Warmer temperatures won't necessarily ruin your beer, it just won't be as 'smooth' as it would if it were colder. Warmer temperatures contribute to esters although at 50 degrees you should be okay.
Click to expand...

I don't really have a good spot outside, and the temperatures here fluctuate too much for me to trust that the beer will ferment/lager correctly.

With regards to the wet t-shirt and fan and/or ice bucket. The recipe I'm looking at suggests lagering at 42 degrees for 28 days, I'm just not dedicated enough to use those techniques to maintain temperature lol.

Your last sentence though intrigues me, are you suggesting that I could just let it enter the "lagering" phase at the same temperature, effectively racking to secondary after 14 days and letting it sit at 50 degrees for an additional 28 days?
 
hufcat05 said:
I don't really have a good spot outside, and the temperatures here fluctuate too much for me to trust that the beer will ferment/lager correctly.

With regards to the wet t-shirt and fan and/or ice bucket. The recipe I'm looking at suggests lagering at 42 degrees for 28 days, I'm just not dedicated enough to use those techniques to maintain temperature lol.

Your last sentence though intrigues me, are you suggesting that I could just let it enter the "lagering" phase at the same temperature, effectively racking to secondary after 14 days and letting it sit at 50 degrees for an additional 28 days?
Click to expand...

Why not ferment the beer, raise the temperature to a diacetyl rest (in the house), bottle, keep at room temperature for 2 weeks to carb up, and then lager in the bottle? You must have a fridge or something to store the bottles in before drinking. Maybe you could find a fridge spot for a few bottles for a few weeks?
 
If you can't get it below 40 degrees it's not called lagering, it's just called aging. Lagering, by definition, is the process of cold storage for the purpose of dropping out suspended solids, yeast, and excess proteins. This is typically done in the mid 30's.

You will be absolutely fine fermenting in a 50-55 degree range. I agree that placing your fermentor in water will reduce the temp swings.

Your resulting beer will not be as clear or smooth as a lager should be, and may be yeasty since lager yeast doesn't flocculate well unless it gets really cold.

I would suggest fermenting as planned and then lagering in the bottle.

EDIT: ^^ What Yooper said haha
 
Part of the fun of the hobby is experimenting with new things. There are older assumptions that sometimes seem like they ought to be true, yet when experiments are performed on them, the difference between our expectations and reality is minimal.

I think that if you can ferment a lager at that temp, then you could theoretically "lager" it at that temp (after a D-rest) and you will get a decent beer. Will it be just like one that was lagered at near freezing? Maybe not. But there is a likelyhood that the difference is small enough to yield a reasonable beer.

And in my not so professional opinion, there are lots of other things you should pay attention to when brewing a lager, like pitching plenty of healthy yeast, avoiding oxygen AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE after fermentation, a quality recipe made with fresh ingredients, sanitation, CONSTANT fermentation temp.

I'm actually a *little* excited for the cold weather here, as it means I can actually use my garage freezer for lagering! I will be brewing one or two lagers in the near future, fermenting in my ferm chamber with a small heater designed to offset the winter temps just enough to keep it above freezing. (Without catching the thing on fire this time, I hope!)

Ideally you would want to find a small chest freezer and add a $30 STC temp controller and a small heater (or light bulb) to keep a constant temp. It's tough in some parts of the country, where the temps drop, but not quite enough to make lagering possible without an apparatus. Around here I can probably put together a ferm chamber for around $100 no problem.
 
Thanks for the advice everyone! I do enjoy a good experiment, but I'm also a prepper, I'd like to know the basic outcome before I begin to work. I think I'm going to try a combination of both Yooper/TheMadKing's suggestion and Homercidal. Ferment as normal, give it a diacetyl rest and then bottle. I'll put several in the fridge to lager and put the rest back at 50 degrees to "age."

Engineer me is saying this is because I want to see the difference between the two. Husband me is saying this because my wife would kill me if I took up that much space in the fridge for 4 weeks. ;)

This will all be moot in a couple months when I splurge on this bad boy http://www.brewjacket.com/product/immersion-pro-dual-heating-cooling/

Thanks again!
 
I'll throw some of my advice in as well that works for me. Your best bet would be to get a chest freezer with a temperature controller or a mini fridge that can fit a carboy. This will give you your lager temperature as mentioned. You can get a used one off Crags list or some buy and sell for cheap.
For fermenting I use the
http://brulosophy.com/lager-method
My lagers turn out perfectly with a short amount of time. Some don't like this method so you'd have to try it out for yourself. Depending on the beer the longer you cold lager it the better it will be, even with this method.
With your situation as is I'd try the quick lager way.
-Ferment at 50 in your cold spot.
-Move it to a hot spot at 65 or + for diacetyl rest (use a brew belt if have to they are cheap)
- Move back to your cold spot at 50 and wait or use the (swamp cooler) method. Fermentor in a bucket of water wrapped with a t-shirt or towel that's touching the water. This should get you more into a lager temperature range.
- I'm not sure about bottle carbing so you might not be able to use gelatin to drop the yeast out more.
I do my lagers this time of year in my heated garage. Cold enough to bring the whole garage temperature down to 35.
 
I have been wondering about the whole lagering process for some time. Is there a low end cut off for the temperature? By that, I wonder if I can lager in my keezer? I drink mostly stouts and porters, so my keezer is usually in the high 30's.
Has anyone lagered below 40 that can give some feedback?
Thanks
 
@Yooper has a good idea. I'm in the middle of making a kellerbier using that method. Great thing about labeling it a kellerbier, I can crack one open as soon as it is carb'd and chilled.
 
Yooper said:
Why not ferment the beer, raise the temperature to a diacetyl rest (in the house), bottle, keep at room temperature for 2 weeks to carb up, and then lager in the bottle? You must have a fridge or something to store the bottles in before drinking. Maybe you could find a fridge spot for a few bottles for a few weeks?
Click to expand...

That's what I did w/my 2nd place Oktoberfest last year. Of course I have dedicated refers to lager in.
 
hufcat05 said:
Thanks for the advice everyone! I do enjoy a good experiment, but I'm also a prepper, I'd like to know the basic outcome before I begin to work. I think I'm going to try a combination of both Yooper/TheMadKing's suggestion and Homercidal. Ferment as normal, give it a diacetyl rest and then bottle. I'll put several in the fridge to lager and put the rest back at 50 degrees to "age."

Engineer me is saying this is because I want to see the difference between the two. Husband me is saying this because my wife would kill me if I took up that much space in the fridge for 4 weeks. ;)

This will all be moot in a couple months when I splurge on this bad boy http://www.brewjacket.com/product/immersion-pro-dual-heating-cooling/

Thanks again!
Click to expand...

If you have room for a mini freezer or apt fridg you can get one for a lot less than that rig. You can ferment in 5 gallon buckets in a apt fridge if you get one w/o a freezer. That way you can ferment at correct temps and lager as well in the same unit.
 
stevenkimbell said:
I have been wondering about the whole lagering process for some time. Is there a low end cut off for the temperature? By that, I wonder if I can lager in my keezer? I drink mostly stouts and porters, so my keezer is usually in the high 30's.
Has anyone lagered below 40 that can give some feedback?
Thanks
Click to expand...

I lager at 33-34 degrees if I can. Longer time at colder temperatures seems to really "crisp" up and smooth the lager. There are those that lager as high as 40 degrees, but my preference is to go as close to freezing as I can and hold it there longer since beer ages slower at colder temperatures.
 
I'm doing a similar experiment with a 10g batch I brewed last weekend. One has lager yeast and the other some slurry. Both are in my garage in buckets placed in tubs of water. Checked them both the other day and both have healthy krausen going on and smell heavenly (recipe is a blonde ale/cream ale mutation me and my brewpal made up). The fermometers on the buckets are reading 48-50 degrees so wort temp is probably about 54; maybe a bit warm for a lager but we'll see. Was planning on dry-hopping one with some sterling I've got handy (the one with the slurry) and kegging, and truly lagering the other in bottles once it's ready. Can't wait for these to pan out.
 
stevenkimbell said:
I have been wondering about the whole lagering process for some time. Is there a low end cut off for the temperature? By that, I wonder if I can lager in my keezer? I drink mostly stouts and porters, so my keezer is usually in the high 30's.
Has anyone lagered below 40 that can give some feedback?
Thanks
Click to expand...

Of course you can lager in your keezer. What do you think you've been doing this whole time? Lagering in your keezer!

Seriously though, lagering is just cold storage. It's why the last pint usually tastes better than the first. Not just "lagers" can go through lagering. Most of us lager all of our beer without even knowing that's what your doing.
 
Ok another noobie with a noobie question along these lines, what's the difference between a lager and a Pilsner? I thought a Pilsner is just a lager that hasn't been lagered. If that is the case (which now I'm not sure it is) can't u just ferment it and treat it like an ale to get a Pilsner? I know it probably isn't that simple but yall get what I mean.
 
DrnkNPublic said:
Ok another noobie with a noobie question along these lines, what's the difference between a lager and a Pilsner? I thought a Pilsner is just a lager that hasn't been lagered. If that is the case (which now I'm not sure it is) can't u just ferment it and treat it like an ale to get a Pilsner? I know it probably isn't that simple but yall get what I mean.
Click to expand...

Pilsner is a lager.
 
I lager in my basement. Start primary at 50 degrees. Dielect rest for 3 days. Then secondary for 8 weeks at about 27 degrees or so. Although i have larged in as little as 5 weeks total getting very simular results. The trick is keeping the secondary cold for several weeks in the 30's. You might have to be inventive but that is what is needed for a true larger.
 
One thing you can try is, instead of using a traditional German lager yeast, go with Wyeast (or White Labs) San Fransisco Lager yeast, which is a true lager yeast. I use this yeast all the time and it makes a very good, crisp, clean tasting beer at normal fermentation temperatures (up to 70F). Then you can lager in your keezer or in the bottle for a few weeks and will get even more crisp and clean. I made a batch of Dortmunder Export this summer and fermented one batch at 52 degrees and the other at basement tep (66 degrees) and then lagered for 2 weeks each before kegging. They both came out quite good, with the 52 degree batch slightly crisper and cleaner. My picky homebrew buddies (some are BJCP judges) couldn't really tell much of a difference either!
 
hufcat05 said:
Hello all,

First time poster here. I've done a ton of research on this topic and couldn't find a decent answer so I decided to sign up and post a question!

I'm a new brewer and I'm doing research into what I'd like to do for my second batch. (First batch I tried BrewNinja's spotted cow clone converted to a partial mash https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=3188324&postcount=249 -- Totally nailed it)

For my next batch I'd like to try and make a Munich Helles Lager. My issue is that I don't have any means of temperature control for my fermenter. I have a spot in my house that, during the winter, is consistently between 50-55 degrees which is perfect for lager yeast, however I don't have any means of lowering the temperature below 50-55 degrees.

So my question is what would happen to my beer if I never lower it to lagering temperatures? If I do go through with this, what can I do to prevent off flavors from occurring?

Thanks for your help in advance!
Click to expand...
I've brewed for over 25 years and never had a problem Lagering with temps around 50F. You could cover the Carboy with wet towels to lower another 5-10F. Remember that caves are around 55F and were the German places to Lager .
 
People, please correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't it just not be considered a lager anymore. I'd think it'd just be a Helles beer at that point. But I'm also a noob too...
 
How I lager:

Do the boil, add hops, etc. as normal.

Chill, rack it to my carboy, and put the carboy in a big plastic tub in the garage and fill the tub with cold water so my carboy is basically in a water bath.

Next, I drop in a horse/livestock water trough heating element (like this: http://www.ruralking.com/bucket-deicer-6inx3-75in.html ) and connected that to a fish tank thermometer and set it for 40 degrees.

My garage is not insulated and can get pretty cold in winter... If the water gets below 40 degrees, the heater kicks on.
 
The new edition of BYO has several articles about fast lagering. I think I am going to try their method.
 
I have this Denny Conn article bookmarked for my next lager test. He says this is a old lagering technique used by commercial brewers.

"You can find more about it online or in the book Homebrew All-Stars (shameless plug), but the basic idea is to start your fermentation at 55° F (13° C). When the gravity drops 50 percent of the way to its expected terminal value, raise the temperature to 58° F (14° C). When it gets 75% of the way there, raise the temperature to 62° F (17° C). And then when it reaches 90%, raise to 66° F (19° C) and hold until the beer reaches your expected final gravity. You can have your delicious lager in two weeks rather than two months!"

His full article is here: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/6-common-homebrew-myths-denny-conn/
 
dn151864 said:
People, please correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't it just not be considered a lager anymore. I'd think it'd just be a Helles beer at that point. But I'm also a noob too...
Click to expand...

I believe you're confusing the term 'lager' (cold condition) with the beer style 'lager'.

Lagering isn't only for lagers. When you lager an ale, you don't call it a lager simply because you lagered it - it's still an ale, because that's the yeast/fermentation profile you used to create it.

Similarly, while a defining feature of a lager style beer is the cold storage phase, it's not unique to the lager style - that is to say, it's not what distinguishes a lager from an ale. If you use lager yeast and ferment at lager temperatures, you have a lager beer. If you should happen to choose not to actually have a cold condition phase, it doesn't change it magically into an ale somehow.
 
If you have any room outside like in a garage or on a covered porch, this might be an alternative to a chest freezer setup. I've used it before I got a chest freezer and now that my freezer is being used for food, I might use this technique again.

Get a box, cardboard will work if it's in a protected area, one covered with plastic will work in an unprotected area. I used a baseboard heater thermostat and two 100W light incandescent bulbs (in case one burns out). The box must be big enough for you fermenter and air lock. I placed a black garbage bag (two if they're not dark enough to keep out the light from the light bulbs) over the fermenter and put a hole in the top for the airlock.

I ran some tests with the baseboard heater and made temperature markings on it since it didn't have any. You'll have to figure out the wiring and decide if you're knowledgeable enough to do the wiring. Place the thermostat about 1/2 way up the height of the box. Insulation might be needed depending on how cold it is in your area during the ferment.

This isn't very accurate but it's close enough. If the temperature rises above your lagering temperature you will have to accept the rise above where you really want it to be at unless you want to work with immersing the fermenter in a larger container of iced water.

This is, of course, a Rube Goldberg setup but it has worked well for me. The two 100W light bulbs will be enough heat in a small chamber such as this, especially if you add foam insulation outside or inside the box. Keep the light bulbs away from the cardboard or insulation to prevent fire. Check daily to make sure both bulbs are working. If one burns out, replace it. There are two bulbs in case one burns out. When there are two, the thermostat will cycle on and off more frequently, but there should be enough heat from one bulb to work, and it will cycle slower.

If you can't implement this, maybe it will work for someone else.

You can improve temperature regulation using a better temperature regulator like one form Ranco or Jonson Controls. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned another one that might be less expensive. You wouldn't need to calibrate one of those.

Donald
 
First off, welcome.

Second, you didn't say where you live. It's like 10F where I am and going down to minus temps. I've had an ale in the garage (teen temps) for 3 days now cold crashing before I keg it.

Third, if you have the skills and tools search this site for the instructions for building a Son of Ferment Chiller.
 
I have never lagered any of my lagers and all have won competitions, including a BOS in a 300+ beer competition in WA with a Helles and BOS in the Spanish National Competition too (90 beers or so).

In both cases the beers had been kegged a few months earlier and kept cold, but without yeast or minimal yeast after fining with gelatin.

Cheers!
 
Keep in mind that the origin of lagering came from storing the beer in man made caves. At the Urquell brewery, the daddy rabbit of Pilsners, they fermented at cool cavern temperatures (55 or so) and then barreled and stored the beer just down the hall in the exact same cavern until fairly recently. The only difference was they would pack ice, with a drainage canal, through the storage areas.

If you bottle, allow to carb and then lager you should achieve a decent lager. So, a large cooler with a bit of ice would solve the problem. Not too much ice. Just enough added daily to keep your bottles around 40 degrees for a few weeks.

The most important thing with lagers is your diacetyl rest. You must raise the temperature enough to allow the yeast to use up that diacetyl. Otherwise you'll have a very buttery beer. But this rest needs to come while the yeast is still active. I recommend checking your gravity after about a week and once you get to about 70% of your estimated final gravity (maybe about 1.03 or so depending on your OG), move your primary carefully (don't shake it up) to a warmer area until it ferments out.

All that said, lagers are tough. Every off flavor is amplified in lagers because they should come off very clean and crisp. Esters from fermenting too high, diacetyl from not a thorough d-rest, DMS from improper boils (must boil for 90 minutes), and on and on. Not saying to give up on making a lager, but I always recommend starting with more forgiving ales until a brewer becomes confident in the nuances of controlling fermentation.
 
Please see the warm fermented lager thread if you would like some other lager ideas.

Are you sure you want a helles? I just started a thread about the fact that I brewed a bunch of helles recipe beer, but really wanted a pilsner. The title is know thy styles to find what you seek. Happy brewing and glad you are branching out.
 
You can always ferment your lager at ale temperatures:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fermentation-temperature-pt-4-lager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

You can then bottle, allow 2 - 3 weeks for carbonation at room temperature, and then lager in the bottle for 2 - 4 weeks in your fridge. I've done Kolsch this way. It left a ton of yeast sediment in the bottle, and it took months to finally drop clear, so I'd recommend fining with gelatin. I just finished a Helles using the fast lager method mentioned earlier in this thread combined with gelatin fining, and it turned out crystal clear and fully carbonated only two weeks after bottling.
 
I think the flavor profile is achieve mostly by age and not necessarily temperature. But what do I know.
 
Go figure! One of the best beers I ever made was PRIOR to delving into the science of the process. I'd mashed in a cooler, sparged with a slotted spoon and a pitcher, fermented without temp control in a clear non-light protected carboy and lagered in two 16 quart soup pans with a loose fitting lid. Why? because I hadn't yet committed to buying a bottle capper or kegs and I only had 4 refillable flip top bottles.

The longer that beer sat between bottle refills, the more accurate my priming sugar dosages got and the better the beer was once it was carbed up. It took all winter to eventually get the last drop through the process. The best were the last 4 bottles!

Now you'd think that the open pan storage and all the other variables would have yielded inferior beer, but maybe it was just because the kit (Midwest supply's European Pilsner) and the grains contained in it were great quality? My experience however discounts a lot of what even I have come to demand in my beer making like exacting mash temp and time controls, fermenting within a tenth of a degree, insane obsession about sterilization and oxidation...

I think the longer cold (33-34F) lager made the difference.
 
ribsman said:
The most important thing with lagers is your diacetyl rest. You must raise the temperature enough to allow the yeast to use up that diacetyl. Otherwise you'll have a very buttery beer. .
Click to expand...



Not really, some lager yeasts don't put out diacetyl. I've never had to do a D-rest on any of my lagers and have never had buttery beer.
 

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