New Apple Orchardist Member Looking to Develop Graf Recipe Using Cider Syrup

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Brit the !@#$

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Ahoy!

We have an 18 acre apple orchard in North Carolina. We currently grow about 180 different heirloom varieties, with an emphasis on regional and hard cider cultivars. We have made hard cider recreationally for years and favor English farmhouse styles. Recently, I became interested in using one of our orchard products to create a graf.

Over the years, we have had interest from breweries in using our apples to create an apple beer. As I understand it, however, the regulatory lines between cider, wine, beer, etc. can be difficult to straddle for businesses, and it's not quite so simple for an existing brewery to simply cross the line from beer into cider territory. Once you introduce cut fruit, higher alcohol content, etc., there's a lot more to consider, and for a brewery just wanting to create a seasonal apple brew, it may not be worth going through the regulatory hoops.

At our orchard, we make something called apple cider syrup. Similar to the way one might make maple syrup or sorghum syrup (aka molasses), we start with a naturally sweet juice, in this case, fresh apple cider, and boil it down for hours until it is reduced by about 10 times and has reached syrup status. We don't add sugar or anything else to sweeten the syrup; it's just apple cider, boiled down. This is actually an old traditional product, and I've heard some people call it apple molasses. This past fall I got to wondering about the feasibility of making beer from it, as a way for breweries to create apple beer from apples, but without regulatory hassle and reliance on artificial flavor. Being a complete brewing novice, I started by looking up recipes for "molasses beer."

I used the simplest recipe I could find, subbing cider syrup in for so-called molasses (some folks mean sorghum syrup, and others, proper sugarcane-derived molasses). This was very basic, utilitarian stuff: cider syrup, corn sugar, Pilsen Light concentrated brewer's wort, yeast, and not much else. My goal was simply to see how the flavor of the cider syrup translated into a beer, and in that department I was rewarded. Cider syrup is sweet-tart to taste, and very tangy, with a distinct caramelized apple flavor. Even when we add hot water back to a few spoonfuls to make a mug of something like instant hot cider, it tastes very different from sweet cider. So I was shocked at the wonderful fresh apple taste that came through in my beer -- it tasted as if I had reconstituted sweet cider back from a concentrate, which is essentially what the syrup is, after all. I also loved the color -- dark brown with reddish tones. But unsurprisingly, my graf was lacking in just about every other department, particularly with regard to head and bitterness. I did end up setting up half the batch to coferment with some redfleshed cider apple pomace before bottling, hoping to enhance the reddish tones, as well as add in some tannic qualities. Results of the pomace coferment were ho-hum, but definitely pushed the flavor in new directions. But overall, the results of my molasses beer experiment were very encouraging.

In researching grafs in general, I came upon this forum and was delighted to find the pioneering graf recipes generously shared by so many of you. I'm finally getting back around to formulating a proper recipe for an apple cider syrup graf, and decided to join up, since I've learned so much here already. Thank you all for such quality discussion surrounding homebrewing! I no longer think of my apple cider syrup beer as a one-off experiment. I'm also interested in playing around more with our apple pomace, but beyond that, I actually look forward to exploring beer-making for its own sake, and not just the apple potential therein.

Pleased to meet you and to be here,

-Brittany
 
Ahoy!

We have an 18 acre apple orchard in North Carolina. We currently grow about 180 different heirloom varieties, with an emphasis on regional and hard cider cultivars. We have made hard cider recreationally for years and favor English farmhouse styles. Recently, I became interested in using one of our orchard products to create a graf.

Over the years, we have had interest from breweries in using our apples to create an apple beer. As I understand it, however, the regulatory lines between cider, wine, beer, etc. can be difficult to straddle for businesses, and it's not quite so simple for an existing brewery to simply cross the line from beer into cider territory. Once you introduce cut fruit, higher alcohol content, etc., there's a lot more to consider, and for a brewery just wanting to create a seasonal apple brew, it may not be worth going through the regulatory hoops.

At our orchard, we make something called apple cider syrup. Similar to the way one might make maple syrup or sorghum syrup (aka molasses), we start with a naturally sweet juice, in this case, fresh apple cider, and boil it down for hours until it is reduced by about 10 times and has reached syrup status. We don't add sugar or anything else to sweeten the syrup; it's just apple cider, boiled down. This is actually an old traditional product, and I've heard some people call it apple molasses. This past fall I got to wondering about the feasibility of making beer from it, as a way for breweries to create apple beer from apples, but without regulatory hassle and reliance on artificial flavor. Being a complete brewing novice, I started by looking up recipes for "molasses beer."

I used the simplest recipe I could find, subbing cider syrup in for so-called molasses (some folks mean sorghum syrup, and others, proper sugarcane-derived molasses). This was very basic, utilitarian stuff: cider syrup, corn sugar, Pilsen Light concentrated brewer's wort, yeast, and not much else. My goal was simply to see how the flavor of the cider syrup translated into a beer, and in that department I was rewarded. Cider syrup is sweet-tart to taste, and very tangy, with a distinct caramelized apple flavor. Even when we add hot water back to a few spoonfuls to make a mug of something like instant hot cider, it tastes very different from sweet cider. So I was shocked at the wonderful fresh apple taste that came through in my beer -- it tasted as if I had reconstituted sweet cider back from a concentrate, which is essentially what the syrup is, after all. I also loved the color -- dark brown with reddish tones. But unsurprisingly, my graf was lacking in just about every other department, particularly with regard to head and bitterness. I did end up setting up half the batch to coferment with some redfleshed cider apple pomace before bottling, hoping to enhance the reddish tones, as well as add in some tannic qualities. Results of the pomace coferment were ho-hum, but definitely pushed the flavor in new directions. But overall, the results of my molasses beer experiment were very encouraging.

In researching grafs in general, I came upon this forum and was delighted to find the pioneering graf recipes generously shared by so many of you. I'm finally getting back around to formulating a proper recipe for an apple cider syrup graf, and decided to join up, since I've learned so much here already. Thank you all for such quality discussion surrounding homebrewing! I no longer think of my apple cider syrup beer as a one-off experiment. I'm also interested in playing around more with our apple pomace, but beyond that, I actually look forward to exploring beer-making for its own sake, and not just the apple potential therein.

Pleased to meet you and to be here,

-Brittany
I was wondering if you could try making this syrup with any kind of apple or if it would need to be cider apples to have the right sugar content and depth of flavor etc. I have an apple tree (not sure what kind) and your post made me want to experiment with this lovely sounding syrup myself. As a lover of heirloom gardening it warmed my heart to hear your orchard hosts 180 heirloom varietals, and I found the insight into your processes you provided fascinating. Thank you!
 
Hi Liz,

Thanks so much for your interest! You could certainly make cider syrup with any kind of apple you like, but most people would emphatically not use cider apples, instead favoring particularly sweet varieties (cider syrup is sweet and tart, with quite a bit of tang to it, so especially in New England where folks are used to comparatively very sweet maple syrup, they use sweet apple varieties to make for a sweeter, milder end product). We prefer a tangy cider syrup ourselves, so use many, many different varieties and don't worry too much about the specifics in our mix (though we wouldn't put a tannin-heavy cider variety in there), and being down South where so many people grew up with molasses, customers really seem to enjoy the tangy stuff, too.

While cider syrup could be termed a concentrate, it is different from what is sold as apple juice concentrate, being that it is cooked for such a long time, and often, over a wood fire, lending a distinct cooked, caramelized flavor. Otherwise, it could be very interesting to specifically use cider apple varietals, including bittersharps, bittersweets, etc., then just reconstitute for hard cider making purposes, but you wouldn't be looking for that cooked apple flavor in a traditional or typical modern hard cider. And it probably wouldn't taste the best on a biscuit, but of course, that wouldn't be the point. I'm actually not sure how exactly apple concentrate is made, but I know they don't simply cook it down for hours over a fire!

Hope that helps . . .
 
https://content.libsyn.com/p/c/f/1/...mVlmNXbgrUH4gKGg__&Key-Pair-Id=K1YS7LZGUP96OIAbove is a link to a basic brewing podcast from 2013, from what I remember, they used Pallisades hops, honey malt, and DME along with the apple component.
I‘ve done several experiments over the years with graff, including a recipe from the podcast above and recipe ideas here on HBT my conclusion is that it’s way better for me to make cider and beer as separate beverages and then either “blend in the glass” to taste or the in a keg. There are just too many variables in apples to get a reliable recipe unless you are using something really plain.
I’ve also made apple molasse, but never got around to using it in a beer.
My 2 cents: take some of your existing hard cider and perform a series of bench trials using different kinds of commercial beer. Blend 50/50 with a light lager, a pale ale, a “session” IPA, other IPA’s and stouts and porters. When you find something you like, play around with the ratio of beer to cider. Use your results to reverse engineer a recipe, come back with your ideas if you need help with that.
Hoping to hear about your results as I’ve been messing with beer cider blending for some time now.
:mug:
 
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Hey, thank you very much for the reply and wonderful reverse engineering idea. You are so right about how hard it is to predict the outcome of a coferment of anything apple and beer, but I love the idea of using blends of finished beers and ciders to at least approximate a goal. Also appreciate the link, but just getting error messages no matter how I try to access it, for some reason.

Here's a link back at you to a Cider Chat podcast re: cofermenting cider and beer: Episode 345 on ciderchat.com if it doesn't come through. 345: Co-Fermenting Cider with Beer | Four Phantoms Brewery, MA. I had mentioned my interest in creating a worthwhile graff to the podcast host and she mentioned that in her opinion Four Phantoms Brewery is one of the few commercial breweries who have gotten it right. This interview with the head brewer at Four Phantoms touches on what cider can (and cannot) bring to a beer, which I found helpful in thinking about all this. He also mentions aging with woods, which is another interest of mine, specifically, taking the apple-beer fusion to the next level by using apple wood chips.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement and nice idea -- sometimes you don't think of the simplest places to start with a new venture.
 
Hey, thank you very much for the reply and wonderful reverse engineering idea. You are so right about how hard it is to predict the outcome of a coferment of anything apple and beer, but I love the idea of using blends of finished beers and ciders to at least approximate a goal. Also appreciate the link, but just getting error messages no matter how I try to access it, for some reason.

Here's a link back at you to a Cider Chat podcast re: cofermenting cider and beer: Episode 345 on ciderchat.com if it doesn't come through. 345: Co-Fermenting Cider with Beer | Four Phantoms Brewery, MA.
Brittany, Thanks! I haven’t listened to ciderchat more than a year now, I’ll check it out. Yeah, I see my link doesn’t work, if you look for the basic brewing radio web page, choose 2013, you can scroll through the episodes and find it.
A cheap way to introduce a wood component is to use Jack Daniels barrel chips, which are sold to use in a smoker. I soak them in vodka or cheap bourbon to sanitize, then add to the cider after fermentation. You can also add the spirts that you soaked the chips in. After adding the chips, you need to taste frequently, so you know when to get the chips out.
 
Thanks -- I enjoyed the Basic Brewing graff episode. Apple orchards do have their perks: we actually use a chipper to make our own applewood chips from large diameter prunings every spring, and since we're organic (though not certified), it's nice to be able to sell niche applewood chips that haven't been made from conventionally sprayed trees. I actually just used some in tandem with a malolactic ferment of a batch of hard cider, and you are right -- tasting frequently is key. I was amazed at how much flavor was imparted to a 3 gallon batch by less than a cup of applewood chips over a few week period. Next time, I will monitor more closely. I also toasted them beforehand to get some vanilla aromas going, so that was probably sanitation enough, but good to know about your spirit soak, as I don't know if I would have specifically thought of the need to sanitize wood chips before adding.

Will do as you suggested and try mixing hard ciders and beers to approximate what I'm looking for, but in the meantime, got around to playing with my cider syrup graff again. I based it off of Brandon O's famous graff recipe, modified with the syrup and reduced to a 2.5 gallon batch. I plan to make a lot of this stuff as I play, so even though I'm happy to drink lots and lots of test batches, I figured they'd add up fast.

Here's my working recipe for "Baba Yaga's Graff Brew" (we brand our cider syrup as "Baba Yaga's Apple Cider Syrup," but she's also a general mascot and sort of a life coach):

5.5 g Nottingham yeast
0.25 lbs Crystal 60L
1/2 oz. torrified wheat
2.5 gal water (ended up being more like 2.75 gal because I didn't take into account q.s.--ing the water and cider syrup)
1 lb extra light DME (I prefer amber ales and think this would make a nice one, but have to consider any caramelized flavor/color the cider syrup will add)
0.25 oz. pelleted Saaz hops
24 oz. apple cider syrup (we reduce our syrup about 10 times, so figured a reconstitution rate of 1:10 to take it back to roughly juice status, and we'd need 2 gallons to match Brandon O's original graff recipe)

Steep the 60L and torrified wheat in 1/2 gallon water at 155 degrees for 30 minutes.
Sparge with 1 quart water at 170 degrees.
Add DME and bring to a boil. Add hops and boil 30 minutes.
In a separate pot, add 24 oz. cider syrup to 2 gallons water and bring to a boil (just for sanitation; warm water is sufficient to blend the syrup with water).
Cool down wort to 70 degrees. Cool down syrup-water to 70 degrees.
Add both liquids to 3 gallon carboy and pitch yeast. Affix airlock with overflow tube.
Starting gravity = 1.058
 
So I listened to cider chat #345 on the way home yesterday and have 3 takeaways:
The host mentioned that the Graf from four phantoms was the only one she’s had that she actually liked.
The beer component is 50/50 barley & wheat, no hops and no boil (raw ale). I believe they said SG was 1.08O?
No yeast is added, natural fermentation from the apples only.
I’m going to try a 1 gallon batch with some fresh cider I have, using the same raw ale approach.

I also found an article from 2019 that had this information:
Graf — a beer/cider hybrid — isn’t brand-new to the world of craft beverages, but it’s a product we just don’t see very often out there in the world. Hawke’s, a U.K-based modern cidery (that reminds us a lot of Graft, to be honest) is trying to take the concept more mainstream with Graff, its co-fermented apple pale ale. A blend of Braeburn and Bramley apples are fermented with a caramelized and malty beer wort, to which American Ale and Sauvignon Blanc-style yeasts are added. It’s then hopped with Amarillo and Cascade. Curious about the flavor? Hawke’s reports these tasting notes: “The blend of hops gently opens the nose to the aroma of crusty bread. Combining the maltiness of grains with the sharpness of fruit, it delivers an intense mouthfeel evoking memories of continental beer, against the subtle sweetness of pure apple juice.”

original source:
https://www.ciderculture.com/cider-co-ferments-hybrids/
 
Looking forward to hearing how your raw ale based graff turns out. It'd been a while since I heard that Cider Chat episode, so I went back for a re-listen myself. I really like this idea of cider and beer being naturally complementary, since fresh-pressed cider apples should be bringing in all the native yeasts you need for a ferment, and the ale setup is bringing all the nutrients in. I think I'll follow your lead and try a raw ale myself, for its own sake as much as anything to do with graff. Would kill to be back home in New England, where birch branches are in abundance (not so much down South), but might be interesting to throw in some apple wood to kill that bird with this stone, too.

Hawke's is a little far across the pond, but I'll be passing through Massachusetts in the next few weeks and may find an opportunity to stop at Four Phantoms and see about trying their graff if it's in season. And if not, plenty of other awesome beer options -- oh, yeah, limoncello sour, that'll do.
 
I put it together yesterday, the raw ale wort was 1.040, lower than what was mentioned in the podcast, and I skipped the branches, and I heated the wort up to 180F to sanitize. The carboy of cider had kicked off naturally but I had it outside and it was frozen for a few weeks. Hopefully will have something to report in a few weeks.
I’m thinking the natural yeast is the key to the 4 Phantoms Graff. My experience with wild fermented cider is the yeast isn‘t as hardy as commercial yeast and dies out once the alcohol level climbs too high. So adding a high gravity wort would mean there would be a high level of unfermented malt sugars left over. They didn’t discuss any of that in the podcast, so it’s all just pure conjecture on my part. I’m not sure an under attenuated malt flavor is what I’m looking for in a Graff, but maybe it will work out.
My next experiment will use 50/50 wheat/barley extract, reconstituted Apple syrup and I’ll run a few pounds of apples through my Breville juicer and add the liquid and the pulp in an effort to get the natural yeast.
 
All right, graff bottling day! Put it up with 3/4 cup corn sugar and gravity was spot on at 1.010 pre-sugar addition. I've got high hopes from my tastes pre-sugar. The aroma was outstanding -- apple plus caramel plus beer in all the right ways. It did not taste quite as good as it smelled; the apple elements crowded out the beer elements that were so perfectly balanced smell-wise-- nice hoppy bitterness, wouldn't want more than a hint more, if anything; carbonation will help, of course, but it's a bit on the sweet side overall for my taste. When I try again, I'm expecting to add just a hair more hops, but not double, and either reduce the syrup a bit or look at a different DME. If I knew enough about brewing at this point, I'd say what I'd like to see overall is more "graininess" to the flavor and figure out how to tweak to achieve that with different additions.

Overall, though, huge improvements over my maiden molasses beer batch and highly drinkable. Definitely think there's good potential for brewing with cider syrup in more experienced hands, and cost-wise, it looks to be slightly less expensive to on par with the commercial cider concentrate.
 
The one detailed earlier in this thread on 1/17:

5.5 g Nottingham yeast
0.25 lbs Crystal 60L
1/2 oz. torrified wheat
2.5 gal water (ended up being more like 2.75 gal because I didn't take into account q.s.--ing the water and cider syrup)
1 lb extra light DME (I prefer amber ales and think this would make a nice one, but have to consider any caramelized flavor/color the cider syrup will add)
0.25 oz. pelleted Saaz hops
24 oz. apple cider syrup (we reduce our syrup about 10 times, so figured a reconstitution rate of 1:10 to take it back to roughly juice status, and we'd need 2 gallons to match Brandon O's original graff recipe)

Starting gravity 1.058
 
Looks like my version is done fermenting, took a taste, it’s got the wild ferment funky but not objectionable yeast flavor, a mix off apple and malt, not bad, will interesting to see if letting it settle, cold crash and carbonate will make a difference. Since it’s a raw ale, it might not clear very much. FG about 1.016.
 

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So what was your final evaluation on your raw graf in the end? I'm so glad you tried this method. Still looking forward to doing so myself, but I've been distracted by my other non-graf beer ventures for the past few months! I've enjoyed moving into all-grain batches using recipes from one of Charlie Papazian's homebrewing books: Hanging Possum American Pilsener, Spider's Tongue Rauchbier, Vicarious Gueze, and Dusty Mud Stout. I got rave reviews from everyone who tried my graf over the past few months, even with pathetic carbonation (that's my next frontier), and I made sure that a lot of the folks to critique it had sampled grafs before and had excellent palates. Pretty gratifying to hear such good, and more importantly and surprisingly, consistent feedback. Overwhelmingly, everyone gave a huge thumbs up to where the hops sat in the recipe, and additionally, how well-balanced the brew was, sweeter than the average graf.

Finally getting around to doing another batch and I am going to sub in the Briess Sparkling Amber DME for the Extra Light DME in the pilot recipe. I've learned how to use Whirlifloc since that first batch, so throwing some in for some nice clarity. No Saaz hops on hand, but I really enjoyed using Liberty hops in a recent recipe, so subbing those in since there's a fair amount of overlap with Saaz.

Now that I've got some experience with all-grain batches, I'd love to ditch the DME entirely and sub in some good grains next time. Yup, time to get graffing again, and I've not even pitched the yeast for this batch yet . . .
 
I’ve got some that’s been been sitting in the keg, I’ll pour some tomorrow after work and provide a report…
 
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