Nelson Sauvin "wine"

[Owly055]

Tasting my recent brew that was made with Nelson Sauvin exclusively, including dry hopping, I am very impressed with the wine flavor. My first foray into Nelson Sauvin

One project in my queue is a Nelson Sauvin "wine"................ I want an extremely neutral / minimal malt presence, and an intense Nelson Sauvin flavor. My thinking is to make a high gravity brew with mostly rice modified with amylase, and a percentage of Pilsner malt. Say 8 pounds of flaked rice and 2 pounds of pilsner malt for a 2.5 gallon brew.

Anybody here tried anything this radical? The question in my mind is the IBUs that are appropriate........... A look at the chart suggests that at the OG I have in mind, a balanced brew would have an IBU of 45-50............ I don't think I want that...........I'm thinking that I want a dry product.

 

[Ravenor]

That sounds pretty interesting.
On a side note I think you would be able to impart the flavor of the Nelson Sauvin in your beer if you do a "hop tea".
I mean if you put the hop into hot (but not boiling) water so that the flavors will be in the solution but not the bitterness, i.e. the alpha acids.

 

[Owly055]

That sounds pretty interesting.
On a side note I think you would be able to impart the flavor of the Nelson Sauvin in your beer if you do a "hop tea".
I mean if you put the hop into hot (but not boiling) water so that the flavors will be in the solution but not the bitterness, i.e. the alpha acids.

I frequently toss hops in at flameout for this purpose....... Been thinking of building a counterflow chiller just to be able to use a hopback so these flavors can be trapped in the chilled wort. I also dry hopped heavily in my recent Nelson Sauvin brew. I've been toying with possible recipes in Brewer's Friend, but I think it will take several tries to get the right balance of bitterness / sweetness for a sort of "crisp" white wine flavor. I'm leaning toward a few one gallon batches, using varying amounts of a very light crystal / dextrin malt like carapils, and various IBU levels. I think some bitterness is desirable, offset by some residual sweetness to give a richness to it. I want a result that has more of a wine character than a beer character...... or sort of bridges the gap between the two.

A person could go the saki route, doing the whole process of inoculating rice with koji to convert the sugars to starch, but I'm not ready to tackle that project yet.

H.W.


H.W.

 

[Brewmex41]

I'm doing something similar. I brewed 5 gallons of double Ipa with lots of nelson. I'll add white grape juice tomorrow and more in a few days. I'm going for a beer wine hybrid.

 

[Owly055]

I'm doing something similar. I brewed 5 gallons of double Ipa with lots of nelson. I'll add white grape juice tomorrow and more in a few days. I'm going for a beer wine hybrid.

Interesting.......... I hadn't thought of putting grape juice in........ and probably won't. I'm wondering what else I can do to give it more a wine like taste. This will be a high gravity beer/wine. I want some residual sweetness, so I'll probably carapils for the dextrin. The large percentage of flaked corn will be converted with amlyase, and that process might result in more fermentable sugars, and a need for dextrin. This isn't my next project...but it isn't far off. It's one of those things you need to roll around awhile before settling on a program.

H.W.

 

[Brewmex41]

Interesting.......... I hadn't thought of putting grape juice in........ and probably won't. I'm wondering what else I can do to give it more a wine like taste. This will be a high gravity beer/wine. I want some residual sweetness, so I'll probably carapils for the dextrin. The large percentage of flaked corn will be converted with amlyase, and that process might result in more fermentable sugars, and a need for dextrin. This isn't my next project...but it isn't far off. It's one of those things you need to roll around awhile before settling on a program.

H.W.

Just a thought for ya. I used honey malt in mine. I'm hoping a slight honey flavor will add to the wine like overall flavor.

 

[Hujo]

I've thought about this as well, but since I've never tasted anything I liked with rice or corn I wouldn't use it, and definitely not in those amounts. I'd do a 50/50 pale or pilsner/wheat, mash really low to have discrete malt appearance, aim for maybe 8% ABV, oak it using non toasted oak (soaked in cabernet sauvignon of course), but most importantly, use a good wine yeast. The only wine yeast I have experience with is Lalvin's champagne yeast, which I think would work great.

So I guess you'd get some tannins from the oak, but acidity and fruit are important to wine obviously. This is where I'd start thinking about bretts. either in conjunction with the wine yeast, or alone, for less funk.

 

[Hujo]

I don't really understand the bit about the IBUs and dryness, since they really are separate matters? And then you talk about wanting residual sweetness? Anyways, i would be careful not to overbitter it, and focus more on late hop additions.

 

[Owly055]

I've thought about this as well, but since I've never tasted anything I liked with rice or corn I wouldn't use it, and definitely not in those amounts. I'd do a 50/50 pale or pilsner/wheat, mash really low to have discrete malt appearance, aim for maybe 8% ABV, oak it using non toasted oak (soaked in cabernet sauvignon of course), but most importantly, use a good wine yeast. The only wine yeast I have experience with is Lalvin's champagne yeast, which I think would work great.

So I guess you'd get some tannins from the oak, but acidity and fruit are important to wine obviously. This is where I'd start thinking about bretts. either in conjunction with the wine yeast, or alone, for less funk.

I like the oak suggestion.......... The idea of using a large percentage of rice and corn is that I'm making something resembling wine more than beer..... I want to minimize the maltiness. The hops are supposed to carry it........ it's about hops, not about malt. An ideal result would be one that you would sip, and not immediately be able to pin down as beer or wine. Most wines are about 12%, and alcohol is much more a part of the flavor profile in wine than in ordinary beers. Your suggestion of using a wine yeast makes sense. Your comment about acidity has me wondering if perhaps a "sour mash" process might be a useful tool. Keep the IBUs low, add most of the hops at flameout and dry hop....

What's clear is that this would be a perfect project for my 1.5 gallon fermenter. Keep the batch size down to 1.5 gallons and use the "error and error method"........ "If at first you don't succeed...........give up and have a cold one!) ;-).................

H.W.

 

[Hujo]

Like you say, acidity and bitter is hard to match. And i get the idea to try to keep the body light. But using rice and hopping it that much could be a little weird - imagine sake with 45 IBUS! But it's an interesting idea, good luck!


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[Owly055]

Like you say, acidity and bitter is hard to match. And i get the idea to try to keep the body light. But using rice and hopping it that much could be a little weird - imagine sake with 45 IBUS! But it's an interesting idea, good luck!


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I'm actually not planning on hopping anywhere close to that figure...... I was just looking at the chart of what is considered "balanced".......... My inclination for a starting point is closer to half that figure..... Right now, I'm just looking at possible approaches........ Until the first one gallon batch is bottle conditioned and I can taste the result, I won't know which way to go with it.

I'm really just casting about for ideas as to where to start..... It needs to be "big" if it is going to resemble wine........ A big beer with a lot of malt in it will be malty, hence using a considerable percentage of rice. Logic would suggest that 50/50 malt / rice in a 6% beer would have the same level of maltiness as 25/75 malt / rice in a 12% beer..........The more malt, the more malt flavor........... Perhaps this is wrong.

H.W.

 

[Hujo]

Well, I would assume that the rice taste gets amplified as well as the malt taste, so that the percentage stays the same, but I really don't know. How do you convert the starch in the rice to fermentable sugar?

 

[upheaval]

I love Nelson. I did an IPA recently using 7.5 oz of Nelson. The bottles are all empty now due to the tastiness produced by this hop.

 

[Brewmex41]

I love Nelson. I did an IPA recently using 7.5 oz of Nelson. The bottles are all empty now due to the tastiness produced by this hop.

Upheaval...Ipa? Lol

 

[upheaval]

@Brewmex haha took me a min, but no... Graphic Design company name

 

[Brewmex41]

@Brewmex haha took me a min, but no... Graphic Design company name

I assumed because of the nelson Sauvin hops in the Widmer upheaval Ipa.. lol