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Tyler Hurst

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Hey everyone, long time lurker first-time poster here. I have been working on perfecting my NIEPA recipes for quite a while and created a list of Guidelines to follow that are strictly for use with New England IPAs. I am no master brewer and this list is mostly for newcomers to brewing but, if you have recommendations for changes let me know! I feel really confident in my brews and made some really delicious NEIPAs so far but, always open to suggestion.

NEIPA Notes (Style Guide)

Recipe Formulation

· Use a small amount of flaked oats to maintain gold color and increase Haze

· Yeast choices vary but, Wyeast 1318, Conan strains, and Imperial A38 are most popular and definitely create strong NEIPAs.

· Hop profile is left at user discretion but, go for bitter hops at 60 (warrior) fruit forward profile hops during the boil and dry hop (Citra galaxy etc.) stay away from extremely piney hops (mosaic)

· Add large dry hop addition at high krausen (when foam appears “Rocky”) to keep color lighter and to import biotransformation of terpenoids into new chemical compounds.

· Only one primary fermentation if possible.

· Water profile is the most important aspect of mouthfeel and Haze in this beer. Getting brewing salt ratios correct. If you have never done this start with RO water and add salts Download here http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

o Sulfates – 150PPM

o Chloride – 100PPM

o Calcium – 20PPM

o Magnesium – 20PPM

o Estimated Mash pH – 5.2

NEIPA Brew Day and Yeast Starter Guidelines

· Create starter at least 2 days prior using a grain profile that is similar than that of the wort to ferment in (not DME). This means creating a small batch on the stove with scaled down the recipe of bulk grains (if using mainly 2 row and small amounts of others, all 2-row is fine, if using half 2 row and half golden promise with others just use the 2 row and golden promise)

· Use stir plate for starter

· Stir every 20 minutes while mashing

· Allow the smallest amount of oxygen to enter the beer at any given time but, oxygenate the wort prior to pitching yeast; this oxygen is the last good oxygen this beer will encounter. After pitching all oxygen is bad.

· Ensure that Mash PH is within parameters from water calculation.

· Try to use a fermentation vessel which has a valve on it for bottling/kegging to expose the least amount of Oxygen. Kegging is the best option for minimized 02 exposure.

· Use C02 blow off into the headspace of any vessel containing NEIPA and after any transfer.

· Use a filter to displace trub during transfers from the kettle to fermentation vessel to keg/bottling bucket. This will not affect Haze.

· Keep a “healthy” amount of kettle trub when/if transferring, this helps in attenuation.

· No need for sparging but, use whatever method increases efficiency for you the most

· Recirculate wort if possible between mash and boil

· Add yeast nutrient at 15 mins to end of the boil

· Don’t be afraid to add sugar/lactose. Keep lactose additions on a smaller end to ensure not over-sweetening (1.6-1.3 oz per gallon of wort). Also don’t be afraid to try souring with Lactic Acid. If you like the sound of either of these. Try putting 1 gallon of your batch in a separate container and adding lactic acid, lactose, or both. Both of these can be added post fermentation but, they increase your 02 exposure.

Please let me know if you have any other NEIPA style recommendations. I know some of these are overall recommendations for beer brewing but, these recommendations are important to this specific style.
 
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Tyler Hurst

Tyler Hurst

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Also, I should give credit where it is due and say that a lot of this came from brulosophy, their podcasts and exbeeriments, trinity brewing collab, angels and devils brewing, and a myriad of other sites but, mostly those.
 

IslandLizard

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Braufessor

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Also, You have calcium listed at 20 ppm - is that a typo? I would think that would be up around 100 or so.

Not even sure how it would be that low with the other numbers where they are at.
 

Invertalon

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Everybody jumps on the bandwagon of adding a ton of wheat/oats, adding flour, high chlorides, no bittering hops, etc… Meh… Not required one bit.

I brew them fairly often and side-by-side with Trillium, which I get often, mine are spot on. Mouthfeel, bitterness, hop brightness, appearance, etc...

My tips below, for what it’s worth…

1.) No need for wheat/oats for extremely turbid appearance. Add for flavor only, if you want any “wheatiness” for example. I have extremely turbid beers made only with barley… No problem.

2.) Use a west coast water profile. High sulfates and bump up the chloride slightly. Say, 250/75 or even 300/75 (sulfate:chloride)

3.) Any NE yeast strain will do… Conan, London Ale, US-04, whatever. Find what you like best.

4.) Limit any cold/hot break as much as possible in the kettle. Whirlfloc is fine, even, makes no difference in my experience. You still want high quality wort into your fermenter. Keep any trub away from the fermenter, even brilliant wort will have plenty of nutrients.

5.) Fermentation dry hop is important. Add 24hrs after yeast pitch, especially because…

6.) SPUND! These beers will ferment out in 2-3 days tops. I add 3-4oz fermentation dry hop 24hrs after pitch and prepare to transfer to the keg another 24-36hrs after that. Move into keg and spund to proper pressure to allow to finish. I even add more keg dry hop (3-5oz more) into a hop strainer or another method to keep the hop debris under control in the keg so you don’t clog anything. Then cold crash and let sit a few days to condition before tapping. But you can be grain to glass in only 5 days, honestly… If you want I leave keg hop in there the entire duration the keg is on tap.. I don’t get off flavors or anything like that, even after 2 months. Keg will trap all that amazing aroma…

7.) Add a nice bittering hop charge… Since you will likely masher higher and leave more residual sugars, you want more bittering on the front end. Sweet, unbalanced NE IPA is not what you want. Make sure you get some IBU’s in there. After a FWH or 60min addition, I want until about 15min to start adding more late hops to a large, 2-4oz whirlpool addition in which I reduce the wort temp down to 160-170F for 20-30min.

8.) Keep your pH under control. Hops raise pH, especially large dry hop, so you want to control this a bit. Mash pH I like to keep 5.3-5.4 but near the end of the boil, I use phosphoric or lactic acid to reduce pH down to 4.9 or so. Typically, I knock down to 5.1 for my lagers for example… But since all the dry hop will increase pH, I want to maintain the crispness of the beer. Going to 4.9 or so gives some buffer that eliminates the “muddled” character you often get with poorly made NE IPA… (all too common…).

Just some of my tips though… For what it’s worth!
 

Rob2010SS

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Hey everyone, long time lurker first-time poster here. I have been working on perfecting my NIEPA recipes for quite a while and created a list of Guidelines to follow that are strictly for use with New England IPAs. I am no master brewer and this list is mostly for newcomers to brewing but, if you have recommendations for changes let me know! I feel really confident in my brews and made some really delicious NEIPAs so far but, always open to suggestion.

NEIPA Notes (Style Guide)

Recipe Formulation

· Use a small amount of flaked oats to maintain gold color and increase Haze

· Yeast choices vary but, Wyeast 1318, Conan strains, and Imperial A38 are most popular and definitely create strong NEIPAs.

· Hop profile is left at user discretion but, go for bitter hops at 60 (warrior) fruit forward profile hops during the boil and dry hop (Citra galaxy etc.) stay away from extremely piney hops (mosaic)

· Add large dry hop addition at high krausen (when foam appears “Rocky”) to keep color lighter and to import biotransformation of terpenoids into new chemical compounds.

· Only one primary fermentation if possible.

· Water profile is the most important aspect of mouthfeel and Haze in this beer. Getting brewing salt ratios correct. If you have never done this start with RO water and add salts Download here http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

o Sulfates – 150PPM

o Chloride – 100PPM


o Calcium – 20PPM

o Magnesium – 20PPM

o Estimated Mash pH – 5.2

NEIPA Brew Day and Yeast Starter Guidelines

· Create starter at least 2 days prior using a grain profile that is similar than that of the wort to ferment in (not DME). This means creating a small batch on the stove with scaled down the recipe of bulk grains (if using mainly 2 row and small amounts of others, all 2-row is fine, if using half 2 row and half golden promise with others just use the 2 row and golden promise)

· Use stir plate for starter

· Stir every 20 minutes while mashing

· Allow the smallest amount of oxygen to enter the beer at any given time but, oxygenate the wort prior to pitching yeast; this oxygen is the last good oxygen this beer will encounter. After pitching all oxygen is bad.

· Ensure that Mash PH is within parameters from water calculation.

· Try to use a fermentation vessel which has a valve on it for bottling/kegging to expose the least amount of Oxygen. Kegging is the best option for minimized 02 exposure.

· Use C02 blow off into the headspace of any vessel containing NEIPA and after any transfer.

· Use a filter to displace trub during transfers from the kettle to fermentation vessel to keg/bottling bucket. This will not affect Haze.

· Keep a “healthy” amount of kettle trub when/if transferring, this helps in attenuation.

· No need for sparging but, use whatever method increases efficiency for you the most

· Recirculate wort if possible between mash and boil

· Add yeast nutrient at 15 mins to end of the boil

· Don’t be afraid to add sugar/lactose. Keep lactose additions on a smaller end to ensure not over-sweetening (1.6-1.3 oz per gallon of wort). Also don’t be afraid to try souring with Lactic Acid. If you like the sound of either of these. Try putting 1 gallon of your batch in a separate container and adding lactic acid, lactose, or both. Both of these can be added post fermentation but, they increase your 02 exposure.

Please let me know if you have any other NEIPA style recommendations. I know some of these are overall recommendations for beer brewing but, these recommendations are important to this specific style.

So, I slightly disagree with some of your points.

I use mosaic in my NEIPA along with Citra and Vic Secret. Comes out awesome. Lots of commercial examples use mosaic as well. Nothing wrong with this hop.

You appear to have your NEIPA water profile stats backwards. Typically, SO4 is reduced to about half of Cl. And I agree with the other post that said your Ca2 appears to be a typo.

What's the reasoning that you can't use DME for a starter? Almost everyone uses DME for a starter, there is nothing wrong with this method. I'd be curious to hear your reasoning for this.
 

couchsending

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You need high CL/So4
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #1

You need piles of flaked oats/wheat
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #2

You need to use Conan/1318
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #3

You need to dry hop at High Krausen
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #4

These beers need to be made quick.
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #5

Treehouse
- SO4 + other yeasts
- No wheat, oats
- 1 Dry Hop at end of fermentation
- “highish So4, Lowish CL” -Nate
- no beer is DDH
-18-21 days time frame

Trillium
- most likely 007, not confirmed
- new beers with no oats/wheat
- definitely higher in So4/Cl
- one dry hop at very end of Ferm
+ 2nd DH after Ferm at 60*
- 18-24 day time frame

Monkish
- “English yeast”
- some beers with oats/wheat not all
- no water adjustments
+ torrance water avg
176 So4
98 Cl
20 Mg
97 Na
55 Ca
+ only addition is small to boost Ca
- no DH during fermentation

These are the three best commercial versions.

I despise the flavor/aroma of 1318 when dry hopped during fermentation. It’s rotten fruit, not bright clear fruit/hops. Conan is cool cause it can produce a peachy eater when pitched super low (.3-.4mil/ml/* Plato) and it lets hops shine but it doesnt “transform” anything and it doesn’t flocc at all. S04 is your best bet for permanent haze and slightly acidic profile to produce a “juicelike” flavor.

Low PH is super important

Always kettle finings.

For maximum aroma you need the least amount of yeast in suspension when dry hopping. The lowest pitching rate you can get away with without off flavors.

Alaways 4+ lb/barrel DH addition.
Monkish has done up to 9lb/barrel (that’s 20+ Oz in 5 gallons FYI)

Trillium doesn’t even add that many hops in the whirlpool. Huge WP additions aren’t necessary IMHO.

Naturally carbonate. Spund, krausen, speise, etc.

Monkish IPAs will sometimes be 30 days grain to glass, especially with huge DH additions, they don’t have a centrifuge.

Any O2 exposure crushes aroma.
 
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ccous

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Everybody jumps on the bandwagon of adding a ton of wheat/oats, adding flour, high chlorides, no bittering hops, etc… Meh… Not required one bit.

I brew them fairly often and side-by-side with Trillium, which I get often, mine are spot on. Mouthfeel, bitterness, hop brightness, appearance, etc...

My tips below, for what it’s worth…

1.) No need for wheat/oats for extremely turbid appearance. Add for flavor only, if you want any “wheatiness” for example. I have extremely turbid beers made only with barley… No problem.

2.) Use a west coast water profile. High sulfates and bump up the chloride slightly. Say, 250/75 or even 300/75 (sulfate:chloride)

3.) Any NE yeast strain will do… Conan, London Ale, US-04, whatever. Find what you like best.

4.) Limit any cold/hot break as much as possible in the kettle. Whirlfloc is fine, even, makes no difference in my experience. You still want high quality wort into your fermenter. Keep any trub away from the fermenter, even brilliant wort will have plenty of nutrients.

5.) Fermentation dry hop is important. Add 24hrs after yeast pitch, especially because…

6.) SPUND! These beers will ferment out in 2-3 days tops. I add 3-4oz fermentation dry hop 24hrs after pitch and prepare to transfer to the keg another 24-36hrs after that. Move into keg and spund to proper pressure to allow to finish. I even add more keg dry hop (3-5oz more) into a hop strainer or another method to keep the hop debris under control in the keg so you don’t clog anything. Then cold crash and let sit a few days to condition before tapping. But you can be grain to glass in only 5 days, honestly… If you want I leave keg hop in there the entire duration the keg is on tap.. I don’t get off flavors or anything like that, even after 2 months. Keg will trap all that amazing aroma…

7.) Add a nice bittering hop charge… Since you will likely masher higher and leave more residual sugars, you want more bittering on the front end. Sweet, unbalanced NE IPA is not what you want. Make sure you get some IBU’s in there. After a FWH or 60min addition, I want until about 15min to start adding more late hops to a large, 2-4oz whirlpool addition in which I reduce the wort temp down to 160-170F for 20-30min.

8.) Keep your pH under control. Hops raise pH, especially large dry hop, so you want to control this a bit. Mash pH I like to keep 5.3-5.4 but near the end of the boil, I use phosphoric or lactic acid to reduce pH down to 4.9 or so. Typically, I knock down to 5.1 for my lagers for example… But since all the dry hop will increase pH, I want to maintain the crispness of the beer. Going to 4.9 or so gives some buffer that eliminates the “muddled” character you often get with poorly made NE IPA… (all too common…).

Just some of my tips though… For what it’s worth!
I totally agree that the adjuncts aren’t needed and that the amount of chloride to sulfate is being extremely overblown
 

leesmith

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You need high CL/So4
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #1

You need piles of flaked oats/wheat
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #2

You need to use Conan/1318
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #3

You need to dry hop at High Krausen
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #4

These beers need to be made quick.
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #5

Treehouse
- SO4 + other yeasts
- No wheat, oats
- 1 Dry Hop at end of fermentation
- “highish So4, Lowish CL” -Nate
- no beer is DDH
-18-21 days time frame

Trillium
- most likely 007, not confirmed
- new beers with no oats/wheat
- definitely higher in So4/Cl
- one dry hop at very end of Ferm
+ 2nd DH after Ferm at 60*
- 18-24 day time frame

Monkish
- “English yeast”
- some beers with oats/wheat not all
- no water adjustments
+ torrance water avg
176 So4
98 Cl
20 Mg
97 Na
55 Ca
+ only addition is small to boost Ca
- no DH during fermentation

These are the three best commercial versions.

I despise the flavor/aroma of 1318 when dry hopped during fermentation. It’s rotten fruit, not bright clear fruit/hops. Conan is cool cause it can produce a peachy eater when pitched super low (.3-.4mil/ml/* Plato) and it lets hops shine but it doesnt “transform” anything and it doesn’t flocc at all. S04 is your best bet for permanent haze and slightly acidic profile to produce a “juicelike” flavor.

Low PH is super important

Always kettle finings.

For maximum aroma you need the least amount of yeast in suspension when dry hopping. The lowest pitching rate you can get away with without off flavors.

Alaways 4+ lb/barrel DH addition.
Monkish has done up to 9lb/barrel (that’s 20+ Oz in 5 gallons FYI)

Trillium doesn’t even add that many hops in the whirlpool. Huge WP additions aren’t necessary IMHO.

Naturally carbonate. Spund, krausen, speise, etc.

Monkish IPAs will sometimes be 30 days grain to glass, especially with huge DH additions, they don’t have a centrifuge.

Any O2 exposure crushes aroma.
What about Hill Farmstead?
 

leesmith

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I agree with what invertalon and couschsending have said.
Honestly...these IPA’s really just have a ton of dry hops in them....first and foremost. Maybe the yeast helps a bit and of course good brewing practices like watching ph and limiting o2 exposure...water profiles are unique to each brewer.
 

couchsending

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What about Hill Farmstead?

What about them?

I don’t think they use flaked adjuncts, they do list some beers as being brewed with oats but most they don’t.

Shaun Hill once said he prefers Chloride in his hoppy beers but the beers of his that I’ve sent in and other profiles I’ve seen from Ward Labs suggest most Ca comes from Gypsum, although I don’t really think the Ward Labs reports of finished beer are correct based on what we know malt contributes.

I don’t think they dry hop during fermentation.

I think every one of their beers is naturally carbonated. Most likely by krausening of some sort.

To me their beers don’t taste/smell/feel like they’re fermented with 1318 which everyone thinks is their yeast. But I could be wrong there.
 

leesmith

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What about them?

I don’t think they use flaked adjuncts, they do list some beers as being brewed with oats but most they don’t.

Shaun Hill once said he prefers Chloride in his hoppy beers but the beers of his that I’ve sent in and other profiles I’ve seen from Ward Labs suggest most Ca comes from Gypsum, although I don’t really think the Ward Labs reports of finished beer are correct based on what we know malt contributes.

I don’t think they dry hop during fermentation.

I think every one of their beers is naturally carbonated. Most likely by krausening of some sort.

To me their beers don’t taste/smell/feel like they’re fermented with 1318 which everyone thinks is their yeast. But I could be wrong there.

No...I'm just sore you left them off the list for the best commercial examples.

Although as you mention it...I believe the quote I know of from Shaun about Chloride came from The Mad Fermentationist's blog saying how Shaun chimed in on a Facebook post: https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/03/india-amber-ale-recipe.html

"...in addition to sulfate, he thinks using chloride is key to treating the water he uses for hoppy beers."

It seemed some people took this as use more chlorides than sulfates....I can't give examples of this interpretation but feel as though this conclusion was drawn more than once.

At that time (2012) when someone was giving advice on how to brew a hoppy beer, they typically said to just brew with your normal water and add some gypsum. I took Shaun's words as a reaction to this practice; to consider the rest of the salts and how they impact flavor and mouthfeel in regards to a hoppy ale.
 
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couchsending

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There’s a fair amount of sodium in most HF beers across all styles, generally that comes along with some Cl.

I’m also a believer that so4 and Cl levels have an affect on not only the mouthfeel but also the flavor/aroma of certain hops. Read an interesting post on probrewer that lots of So4 can bring out the aspirin like flavor some people get from Amarillo (I’m one of them). I haven’t done enough trials focusing on that but I might try again this fall.
 

leesmith

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There’s a fair amount of sodium in most HF beers across all styles, generally that comes along with some Cl.

I’m also a believer that so4 and Cl levels have an affect on not only the mouthfeel but also the flavor/aroma of certain hops. Read an interesting post on probrewer that lots of So4 can bring out the aspirin like flavor some people get from Amarillo (I’m one of them). I haven’t done enough trials focusing on that but I might try again this fall.

Yeah...and I like the way his beers open up on the palate. A bitterness towards the front middle...rounded out on the sides and a touch of malt spread out across the back...of course with a real hoppy one all this plays with the hop flavor but it’s there.

Salts can change not only how you perceive the flavors but also where on the palate. To me this is part of mouthfeel also...and a consideration. And something I’d like to understand better.
 
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wepeeler

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My 2 cents:

Some of the best Neipas I've made in the past year have had mosaic. Absolutely use it. One of my favorites was a Mosaic/Galaxy. Actually planning on making an all mosaic soon.

1318 is my go to, but I've had great success with WL001, 007 and Burlington.

Warrior for bittering. No other boil hops. All additions after flameout, usually 160 F and under.

Pils Dme is fine for starter. No need for yeast nutrients during boil, as long as you have a healthy starter.

I've dumped all the trub into the fermenter, and I've also kept most of it out. Can't say it makes a difference in flavor. But when keeping trub out, I seem to get a lower FG resulting in a tad drier finish.

Seems like everyone has their own opinions on this style. That's half the fun! Make what you like!
 

Dirty25

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You need high CL/So4
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #1

You need piles of flaked oats/wheat
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #2

You need to use Conan/1318
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #3

You need to dry hop at High Krausen
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #4

These beers need to be made quick.
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #5

Treehouse
- SO4 + other yeasts
- No wheat, oats
- 1 Dry Hop at end of fermentation
- “highish So4, Lowish CL” -Nate
- no beer is DDH
-18-21 days time frame

Trillium
- most likely 007, not confirmed
- new beers with no oats/wheat
- definitely higher in So4/Cl
- one dry hop at very end of Ferm
+ 2nd DH after Ferm at 60*
- 18-24 day time frame

Monkish
- “English yeast”
- some beers with oats/wheat not all
- no water adjustments
+ torrance water avg
176 So4
98 Cl
20 Mg
97 Na
55 Ca
+ only addition is small to boost Ca
- no DH during fermentation

These are the three best commercial versions.

I despise the flavor/aroma of 1318 when dry hopped during fermentation. It’s rotten fruit, not bright clear fruit/hops. Conan is cool cause it can produce a peachy eater when pitched super low (.3-.4mil/ml/* Plato) and it lets hops shine but it doesnt “transform” anything and it doesn’t flocc at all. S04 is your best bet for permanent haze and slightly acidic profile to produce a “juicelike” flavor.

Low PH is super important

Always kettle finings.

For maximum aroma you need the least amount of yeast in suspension when dry hopping. The lowest pitching rate you can get away with without off flavors.

Alaways 4+ lb/barrel DH addition.
Monkish has done up to 9lb/barrel (that’s 20+ Oz in 5 gallons FYI)

Trillium doesn’t even add that many hops in the whirlpool. Huge WP additions aren’t necessary IMHO.

Naturally carbonate. Spund, krausen, speise, etc.

Monkish IPAs will sometimes be 30 days grain to glass, especially with huge DH additions, they don’t have a centrifuge.

Any O2 exposure crushes aroma.


I swear monkish was on the Sunday session recently stating they use Anchor ale yeast in their IPAs.

I’ve made cloudy ales rocking US-05. I’ve made the exact same beer with less chloride that was clear. Hops and yeast seem not to matter for me, water chemistry makes my beers cloudy.
 

leesmith

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My 2 cents:

Some of the best Neipas I've made in the past year have had mosaic. Absolutely use it. One of my favorites was a Mosaic/Galaxy. Actually planning on making an all mosaic soon.

1318 is my go to, but I've had great success with WL001, 007 and Burlington.

Warrior for bittering. No other boil hops. All additions after flameout, usually 160 F and under.

Pils Dme is fine for starter. No need for yeast nutrients during boil, as long as you have a healthy starter.

I've dumped all the trub into the fermenter, and I've also kept most of it out. Can't say it makes a difference in flavor. But when keeping trub out, I seem to get a lower FG resulting in a tad drier finish.

Seems like everyone has their own opinions on this style. That's half the fun! Make what you like!

Yes!
Mosaic on its own makes a great beer...
Try 2/3 Mosaic with 1/3 Nelson...so good.
 

couchsending

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I swear monkish was on the Sunday session recently stating they use Anchor ale yeast in their IPAs.

I’ve made cloudy ales rocking US-05. I’ve made the exact same beer with less chloride that was clear. Hops and yeast seem not to matter for me, water chemistry makes my beers cloudy.

Piles of Chloride will inhibit yeast flocculation, but it takes a lot based on what I’ve read. That is the only thing, other than a complete lack of calcium that would make a beer hazy when it comes to water chemistry. And that’s just yeast in suspension. The best hazy beers actually don’t have much yeast in suspension although your avg local one probably does.

Bissell was the brewery on the Sunday Session saying their yeast is the Anchor strain from BSI, 1272, wlp051, imperial Independance. And yes it will produce a more hazy beer than 001 and in my opinion is much better than 1318.
 

kingmatt

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You need high CL/So4
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #1

You need piles of flaked oats/wheat
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #2

You need to use Conan/1318
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #3

You need to dry hop at High Krausen
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #4

These beers need to be made quick.
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #5

Treehouse
- SO4 + other yeasts
- No wheat, oats
- 1 Dry Hop at end of fermentation
- “highish So4, Lowish CL” -Nate
- no beer is DDH
-18-21 days time frame

Trillium
- most likely 007, not confirmed
- new beers with no oats/wheat
- definitely higher in So4/Cl
- one dry hop at very end of Ferm
+ 2nd DH after Ferm at 60*
- 18-24 day time frame

Monkish
- “English yeast”
- some beers with oats/wheat not all
- no water adjustments
+ torrance water avg
176 So4
98 Cl
20 Mg
97 Na
55 Ca
+ only addition is small to boost Ca
- no DH during fermentation

These are the three best commercial versions.

I despise the flavor/aroma of 1318 when dry hopped during fermentation. It’s rotten fruit, not bright clear fruit/hops. Conan is cool cause it can produce a peachy eater when pitched super low (.3-.4mil/ml/* Plato) and it lets hops shine but it doesnt “transform” anything and it doesn’t flocc at all. S04 is your best bet for permanent haze and slightly acidic profile to produce a “juicelike” flavor.

Low PH is super important

Always kettle finings.

For maximum aroma you need the least amount of yeast in suspension when dry hopping. The lowest pitching rate you can get away with without off flavors.

Alaways 4+ lb/barrel DH addition.
Monkish has done up to 9lb/barrel (that’s 20+ Oz in 5 gallons FYI)

Trillium doesn’t even add that many hops in the whirlpool. Huge WP additions aren’t necessary IMHO.

Naturally carbonate. Spund, krausen, speise, etc.

Monkish IPAs will sometimes be 30 days grain to glass, especially with huge DH additions, they don’t have a centrifuge.

Any O2 exposure crushes aroma.

Not saying you are wrong in any of your points, however, what would you say gives the NEIPA the haze and mouthfeel typical to the style.

if I follow all your points and brew an all barley beer with a normal IPA hop schedule, high sulfate water ptprofi and US-O4, what is going to make it a NEIPA and not just a normal IPA?
 
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ccous

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Not saying you are wrong in any of your points, however, what would you say gives the NEIPA the haze and mouthfeel typical to the style.

if I follow all your points and brew an all barley beer with a normal IPA hop schedule, high sulfate water ptprofi and US-O4, what is going to make it a NEIPA and not just a normal IPA?
Probably just skipping every effort to drop it crystal clear.
 

couchsending

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Higher protein base malts
- Rahr 2 Row is used by most

Treehouse uses Carafoam
- also high in protein and good for body, might actually be Foam negative. No flavor impact however.

Trillium only uses flaked adjuncts in beers where they use Pilsner malt. European Pilsner malt is much lower in protein than American 2 row. Any beer they use 2 Row in doesn’t have a flaked adjunct, just malted wheat which at maybe 10% isn’t gonna contribute that much to haze, more head retention. A lot of their most recent beers have no oats or wheat.

The softness comes from a combo of FG, process, Ph adjustments, and natural carbonation.
 

kingmatt

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Higher protein base malts
- Rahr 2 Row is used by most

Treehouse uses Carafoam
- also high in protein and good for body, might actually be Foam negative. No flavor impact however.

Trillium only uses flaked adjuncts in beers where they use Pilsner malt. European Pilsner malt is much lower in protein than American 2 row. Any beer they use 2 Row in doesn’t have a flaked adjunct, just malted wheat which at maybe 10% isn’t gonna contribute that much to haze, more head retention. A lot of their most recent beers have no oats or wheat.

The softness comes from a combo of FG, process, Ph adjustments, and natural carbonation.

I'm sure that is a component but my experience tells me that can't be the only reason. I've brewed pale ales with 90% Rahr 2-row and US-04 and they have dropped crystal clear without finings in the keg.

I brewed a NEIPA today with my standard base recipe of 70% 2-row, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked wheat and will do my first dry hop at high Krausen and then keg hop. It might not be what the big guys do for their NEIPAs but it seems to work for me :mug:
 

divrack

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I think it's pretty funny that everyone seems to have really strong opinions on what the style is.
To me it's basically anything low in crystal high in hop aroma, lots of active ferment dryhop.
Otherwise you need..
Low bittering. High bittering. High cacl to gyp ratio or the other way around. Tonnes of flaked stuff or none. This yeast or a different one or a mix. Irish moss or not. Fermented with under pitch or loads extra yeast... Etc etc.
Basically beer.

Passions seem high, when it comes to hoppy beer. My advice is to use ingredients you like and be aware changes in them will change the beer.
 

thalesfranco10

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Hey guys, kind of trying to ressurect this post for some questions:

You need high CL/So4
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #1

You need piles of flaked oats/wheat
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #2

You need to use Conan/1318
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #3

You need to dry hop at High Krausen
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #4

These beers need to be made quick.
- NEIPA Homebrew myth #5

Treehouse
- SO4 + other yeasts
- No wheat, oats
- 1 Dry Hop at end of fermentation
- “highish So4, Lowish CL” -Nate
- no beer is DDH
-18-21 days time frame

Trillium
- most likely 007, not confirmed
- new beers with no oats/wheat
- definitely higher in So4/Cl
- one dry hop at very end of Ferm
+ 2nd DH after Ferm at 60*
- 18-24 day time frame

Monkish
- “English yeast”
- some beers with oats/wheat not all
- no water adjustments
+ torrance water avg
176 So4
98 Cl
20 Mg
97 Na
55 Ca
+ only addition is small to boost Ca
- no DH during fermentation

These are the three best commercial versions.

I despise the flavor/aroma of 1318 when dry hopped during fermentation. It’s rotten fruit, not bright clear fruit/hops. Conan is cool cause it can produce a peachy eater when pitched super low (.3-.4mil/ml/* Plato) and it lets hops shine but it doesnt “transform” anything and it doesn’t flocc at all. S04 is your best bet for permanent haze and slightly acidic profile to produce a “juicelike” flavor.

Low PH is super important

Always kettle finings.

For maximum aroma you need the least amount of yeast in suspension when dry hopping. The lowest pitching rate you can get away with without off flavors.

Alaways 4+ lb/barrel DH addition.
Monkish has done up to 9lb/barrel (that’s 20+ Oz in 5 gallons FYI)

Trillium doesn’t even add that many hops in the whirlpool. Huge WP additions aren’t necessary IMHO.

Naturally carbonate. Spund, krausen, speise, etc.

Monkish IPAs will sometimes be 30 days grain to glass, especially with huge DH additions, they don’t have a centrifuge.

Any O2 exposure crushes aroma.

London ale 3 yeasts can really impart some weird fruit smells in some cases. I wasn't able to notice the exact situations, but it seems to be very related to pitching rates and ferm temperature. Nonetheless, I do not live on the US so it would be much easier to me to just go straight with so4 but I get really "tart" flavours. Is this pitch rate/ temperature related? This leads to another question: what's the recommended pitching rate with this yeast? Really hard to measure it without loads of experimentation considering the huge deviation between fermentis informed datas about yeast cells/g. (S04 appears to be ~6-8 bil cel/g and T-58 ~18 bil).

SO4 also doens't appear to release the whole amount of desirable esters I never used it over 68 (only to d-rest) but I know about some breweries (e.g. stone) that say this yeast go dormant in the low 60 (which I kind of did sometimes). So, am I using this yeast in the wrong way?

According to Bamfort's papper on pH, it seems that yeast growth factors (like FAN and Zinc) leads to further decrease in pH (and also increase ester formation), since they'll bud more and release more acid. Furthermore, lower pH at the start of fermentation is supossed to supress some ester formation, so I wonder what is the ideal range for pre-fermentation pH and how it affects the final pH of beer as well as the ester profile (brulosophy did an experiment where showing that yeast was the most important factor for setting final beer pH, but since SO4 is likely producing some tart acid (maybe lactic), it may not be the most desirable trait here). Considering the best commercial examples of the style finish in the 4.4-4.5 ballpark, that would mean the pre DH beer should be at 4.2-4.3 pH. Any tips to finish in this ballpark while minimizing extreme tart flavours without losing ester character?

Final question: does anybody tried to use s-33 yeast with this style? or maybe a blend of so4 and s33? it looks like a valid shot for the style, considering low-medium attenuation and nice ester formation. Fermentis says it is belgian strain, but from my experiences it does not have belgian character, no phenolic and no pepper tastes. The only problem seems to be its low flocculation, which could give a yeasty taste
 

wepeeler

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My 2 cents:

Some of the best Neipas I've made in the past year have had mosaic. Absolutely use it. One of my favorites was a Mosaic/Galaxy. Actually planning on making an all mosaic soon.

1318 is my go to, but I've had great success with WL001, 007 and Burlington.

Warrior for bittering. No other boil hops. All additions after flameout, usually 160 F and under.

Pils Dme is fine for starter. No need for yeast nutrients during boil, as long as you have a healthy starter.

I've dumped all the trub into the fermenter, and I've also kept most of it out. Can't say it makes a difference in flavor. But when keeping trub out, I seem to get a lower FG resulting in a tad drier finish.

Seems like everyone has their own opinions on this style. That's half the fun! Make what you like!
Update on what I've tweaked. I did a Citra/Mosaic that's in my keg now, and it's my best neipa to date. HUGE aroma, and fantastic flavor/mouthfeel.

I now use Columbus for bittering at 60. Small amount, but I try to get about 20 IBU from it. I now also add 20, 10, and 5 minute additions (very small amounts - like a 1.5-4ish IBU for each addition) in addition to a flameout under 160 big charge. I think the small boil hops add complexity that just isn't there with 1 large flameout addition. Still use 1318, but it was 3rd generation from harvesting. Had blowouts on both 5 gallon SS fermenters. It was amazing to see it work!
 

Northern_Brewer

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Final question: does anybody tried to use s-33 yeast with this style? or maybe a blend of so4 and s33? it looks like a valid shot for the style, considering low-medium attenuation and nice ester formation. Fermentis says it is belgian strain, but from my experiences it does not have belgian character, no phenolic and no pepper tastes. The only problem seems to be its low flocculation, which could give a yeasty taste

Actually Fermentis make no claims about it being Belgian these days - see eg the datasheet. S-33 is very closely related to Windsor, and you'll see a few people have used Windsor over on the main NEIPA thread.
 

VirginiaHops1

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There was an article a few months ago where Shaun Hill from Hill Farmstead conceded he used oats in every beer he makes, so as someone else said above there is more than one way to skin this cat even if it's true that Treehouse and Trillium don't use wheat or oats.

https://newengland.com/yankee-magazine/living/profiles/shaun-hill-and-the-price-of-perfection/

"When I asked Hill the secret, he was evasive. He’s sick of other brewers copying his beers. He allowed that he puts some oats in every beer he makes (“I like oatmeal”), which gives a creamy mouthfeel, and he mentioned that most brewers don’t think enough about water chemistry."

Wish I knew what exactly he was referring to with his water chemistry comment though(mineral levels, ph, ?)
 

couchsending

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The only recipe I’ve ever seen from Shaun Hill (or the man in Denmark he learned from) involved 2% oats. Both were for hoppy beers and both were very similar so I’d assume that’s somewhat SOP for his hoppy beers. There are beers where he lists oats in the description which probably means a much higher percentage.

Based on the beers of his I’ve had tested and ones I’ve seen from other folks he uses vastly different profiles for each style and really knows how to manipulate his well water to get what he wants. I bet you’d be surprised at the number of pro brewers that don’t even want to go down that rabbit hole.

There a famous quote from him about pH where he says beginning and end of the boil are most important. You can extrapolate from there.
 

VirginiaHops1

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The only recipe I’ve ever seen from Shaun Hill (or the man in Denmark he learned from) involved 2% oats. Both were for hoppy beers and both were very similar so I’d assume that’s somewhat SOP for his hoppy beers. There are beers where he lists oats in the description which probably means a much higher percentage.

Well, like many of your posts that's pretty vague info(what year did you see a HF recipe? did Shaun actually provide it to you? which beer? etc?) so it's hard to determine how actionable that is but the takeaway from that interview a few months ago is that he does extensively use oats(unless he outright lied). It may not be 20% but whether it's 2% or 10% is something people truly trying to chase HF or the top tier NEIPAs should include in their experimentation.

I'm honestly not trying to emulate every little detail they do, because we're all brewing on different systems and I may have to do things differently to get good results but I am very interested in the overall concepts they employ to produce such good beer.
 
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couchsending

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Well, like many of your posts that's pretty vague info(what year did you see a HF recipe? did Shaun actually provide it to you? which beer? etc?) so it's hard to determine how actionable that is but the takeaway from that interview a few months ago is that he does extensively use oats(unless he outright lied). It may not be 20% but whether it's 2% or 10% is something people truly trying to chase HF or the top tier NEIPAs should include in their experimentation.

I'm honestly not trying to emulate every little detail they do, because we're all brewing on different systems and I may have to do things differently to get good results but I am very interested in the overall concepts they employ to produce such good beer.

Mitch Steele’s IPA book is a great source for recipes and process discussion. As is For The Love is Hops.
Any recipe or info from Anders Kissmeyer is worth paying attention to. He worked at Carlsberg for a long time before opening his own brewery which is where I believe Shaun was employed in Denmark when he was there. Was voted best brewer in the world for a while. Has forgotten more than a lot of people will ever know.
 
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ccous

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There a famous quote from him about pH where he says beginning and end of the boil are most important. You can extrapolate from there.

Any idea what pre and post pH should be for pales and IPAs? What do you target?
 

couchsending

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It depends on a few things..

Optimal alpha utilization is 5.4.. higher pH will get you more bitterness but it will be harsher. You want lower bitterness, lower the pH. Also measuring at the beginning of boil will be a good indicator if your pH went up during the sparge.

Optimal protein coagulation is 5.2 I believe.

SMM to DMS conversion is faster at higher pH values.

pH should drop during the boil but if you’re adding a lot of hops during the boil it won’t decrease and could increase so you might have to add acid.

A lot of technical info out there on the ideal pH going into the FV is 5.2-5.0. I know Chad Yakobsen says 4.9-5.1. Mostly for fermentation optimization but could be other variables involved.

You get better and brighter Hop flavors at lower pH values. Dry hopping increases pH a bunch.

I need to brew a bunch of the same beer over and over again to test all these parameters. I don’t usually do that however.

If I use Pilsner malt I’ll keep boil pH at 5.4 until the last 30.

If not I target 5.2 start of boil and 5.0 into the fermenter. That involves different acid additions. I use lactic, citric, or sauergut. Going to start messing with acid additions during dry hopping as well just to see what affect it has.
 
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ccous

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It depends on a few things..

Optimal alpha utilization is 5.4.. higher pH will get you more bitterness but it will be harsher. You want lower bitterness, lower the pH. Also measuring at the beginning of boil will be a good indicator if your pH went up during the sparge.

Optimal protein coagulation is 5.2 I believe.

SMM to DMS conversion is faster at higher pH values.

pH should drop during the boil but if you’re adding a lot of hops during the boil it won’t decrease and could increase so you might have to add acid.

A lot of technical info out there on the ideal pH going into the FV is 5.2-5.0. I know Chad Yakobsen says 4.9-5.1. Mostly for fermentation optimization but could be other variables involved.

You get better and brighter Hop flavors at lower pH values. Dry hopping increases pH a bunch.

I need to brew a bunch of the same beer over and over again to test all these parameters. I don’t usually do that however.

If I use Pilsner malt I’ll keep boil pH at 5.4 until the last 30.

If not I target 5.2 start of boil and 5.0 into the fermenter. That involves different acid additions. I use lactic, citric, or sauergut. Going to start messing with acid additions during dry hopping as well just to see what affect it has.
Thank you. Pretty in line with what I’ve been doing. Also thinking about the additions during dry hopping but that may be tricky
 
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It depends on a few things..

Optimal alpha utilization is 5.4.. higher pH will get you more bitterness but it will be harsher. You want lower bitterness, lower the pH. Also measuring at the beginning of boil will be a good indicator if your pH went up during the sparge.

Optimal protein coagulation is 5.2 I believe.

SMM to DMS conversion is faster at higher pH values.

pH should drop during the boil but if you’re adding a lot of hops during the boil it won’t decrease and could increase so you might have to add acid.

A lot of technical info out there on the ideal pH going into the FV is 5.2-5.0. I know Chad Yakobsen says 4.9-5.1. Mostly for fermentation optimization but could be other variables involved.

You get better and brighter Hop flavors at lower pH values. Dry hopping increases pH a bunch.

I need to brew a bunch of the same beer over and over again to test all these parameters. I don’t usually do that however.

If I use Pilsner malt I’ll keep boil pH at 5.4 until the last 30.

If not I target 5.2 start of boil and 5.0 into the fermenter. That involves different acid additions. I use lactic, citric, or sauergut. Going to start messing with acid additions during dry hopping as well just to see what affect it has.

Thanks for all your resource and tip sharing. How have your newer experiments gone?
 

couchsending

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Most of my new experiments have all been Hop based lately. Trying all the new hops and some new hop products that have come out recently. Some crazy new flavor/aroma profiles out there that’s for sure.

HBC692 might be the most interesting if anyone cares. It has so many different profiles as the beer ages and it might have more staying power than any hop I’ve ever used... and I’ve probably used most of them.
 

day_trippr

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Are you still an advocate of soft-crashing an neipa before dry hopping?

Cheers!
 
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