Need some knowledge on winemaking

[kravi]

Hi folks,

I'm new to making wine, though I've been making beer and mead for some time now. While books are on the way (reading one right now), I do have a couple of wine questions. If any of y'all can help me out, I'd be obliged.

1. I've always preferred old world style wines to the new world, fruit forward style. This isn't a snob thing, I've had a few California wines done in the old world style which are absolutely amazing, and a few new world style wines from Europe which were, well, fruit forward. I would like to vint (is that a verb) an old world style wine. Can anyone explain the differences in process to me? I like the tannins, and the silky smooth flavours of old world wines, because mostly that is what I was raised with. How can I replicate this? I heard something about leaving some stems in the process (the brown stems, not that green ones). What else? Maybe fermentation temperatures? I understand old world wines were fermented warmer than is now popular over here.

2. What are options for killing the wild yeast prior to adding in the good yeast? Campden tables or sulfite crystals? What is the difference?

Obliged! I found me a farmer who grows wine grapes for a living, and he's promised me around 80 pounds for my 6 gallons of wine. I am still not decided on the varietal, as I'm waiting closer to harvest time to see what is good.

Cheers,

--kravi

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi kravi, and welcome. Let me address your second question. K-meta or metabisulphite or campden tablets (all the same thing) is what wine makers use to kill wild yeast and bacteria before adding cultured yeast. This chemical produces sulfur dioxide and it takes about 24 hours for the gas to dissipate so you should add the tablets or the chemical in solution a day before you pitch your yeast.

 

[A_McG]

As to how to make those smooth, dry, buttery wines; I don't know. Hope to get there myself someday. Aging in traditional wood cask makes a huge difference.

I started with the tablets but use granules more often. No difference, just skipping the step of crushing the tablet.

What I do know is 80lbs of free grapes is an awesome amount of fruit! A bold wine for sure, hope your first batch goes well

 

[jgmillr1]

Hi folks,
1. I've always preferred old world style wines to the new world, fruit forward style. This isn't a snob thing, I've had a few California wines done in the old world style which are absolutely amazing, and a few new world style wines from Europe which were, well, fruit forward. I would like to vint (is that a verb) an old world style wine. Can anyone explain the differences in process to me? I like the tannins, and the silky smooth flavours of old world wines, because mostly that is what I was raised with. How can I replicate this? I heard something about leaving some stems in the process (the brown stems, not that green ones). What else? Maybe fermentation temperatures? I understand old world wines were fermented warmer than is now popular over here.

Hey Kravi - You're going to have a blast making wine! I prefer the old world style wine also and that is all I make. While it is likely the subject of debate on the exact definition, I view "new world" wines to be more fruit-forward, higher in alcohol, possibly more tannic and slightly sweet when compared to "old world" styles wines (just so you know my point of reference).

Here are a few thoughts on producing an old world style wines. Keep in mind that the artistry of wine making is tweaking these parameters to suit your tastes. Take notes and experiment!
* Ferment on skins. About 5 days maximizes color while longer will extract more skin tannin.
* Minimize stems in the must as this will only extract bitter tannin.
* Keep fermentation temperature moderate, say 80deg. Hotter may stress the yeast and cause off odors (H2S) while cooler may not extract enough color and could even stick the fermentation. Depends on your yeast choice.
* Measure the acid (TA) in the must. Too little (4 g/L) will make the wine flabby while too much (7g/L) will make it taste tart. Keep in mind that malolactic will reduce your TA some depending on your initial malic acid concentration.
* Choose a malolactic friendly yeast. Most red wine yeasts are just fine. Research what strains you have available and get recommendations for your choice of varietal.
* Only add sugar to the must if it is below 21brix. No need for a hot wine with excess alcohol, IMHO.
* Complete malolactic fermentation. I inoculate the wine after pressing and when primary fermentation is done. I actually do it after racking into the barrels.
* Prevent oxidation by adding sulfites AFTER malolactic is complete. Measure the pH and be sure you are adding enough.
* Age as long as you desire. I do about a year in the barrel, topping off every couple months to account for evaporation. I also add a 20ppm of sulfites every few months too to prevent oxidation.

There are some of the basics and there are many other variables. Nothing takes the place of following good wine making practices though.
Pambianchi has a good book that covers processes in detail:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1550652362/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[kravi]

THanks for the responses!

@jgmillr1 I tend to agree with you on the definition - it isn't exact, of course, but good ballpark in my book. I like the mustiness, the tannins, the dryness which smooth out over years, not a big fruit bomb which overwhelms the subtle terroir to me.

I'd heard that not using Campden (or whatever) is characteristic of old world. While you pitch a commercial yeast the small amount of fermentation by wild yeast will influence the flavour a bit, but not likely ruin the end result. IE a taste of whatever is local. Is this a correct assumption?

Since I'm only doing around 5 or 6 gallons I'll likely be doing my secondary fermentations in carboys. I'm trying to figure out how I want to do the oak. I've used, with mead, those oak twisty sticks, but I feel that they might be too strong. I'd like to figure out how to have a very mild oak stick which I can leave in longer. I do not like the end result to be "oaky".

Cheers!

--kravi

 

[jgmillr1]

Modern European winemaking uses sulfites (ie. campden tablets). I would certainly use sulfites and not risk wild yeast fermentation to proceed. Keep in mind that most places that practice native fermentations have a long history of making wine and the locality is well innoculated with proper wine yeast strains. In cases where natives yeasts have taken initial control of my fermentation, they have produced some not-so-pleasant aromas (eg. fingernail polish remover). So the take-away is there is a lot of inherent risk when you go down that road. Not the least of which is oxidation and spoilage risk.

You can buy french oak cubes, chips or spirals at various toasting levels and use the lower end of the recommended dosage to control the degree of oak flavor. If your budget allows, I suggest you buy a 5-gallon oak barrel for the aging. Micro-oxidation through the oak is the key to making a stellar wine that is more than "just ok". You simply can't get the same thing with oak adjuncts in a carboy, period. One of the best wines I've made was a cab franc aged for a year in a 5gal american oak barrel. A shorter time for a new barrel is usually desired because of the surface to volume ratio.

Also stay patient and build on your results. You will likely make wines that are just OK at first and it will give you experience to improve the next year.

 

[kravi]

Your advice is most appreciated, @jgmillr1. A 5 gallon barrel is going to happen. I think I'll try minimal use of sulfites (still use them), just the minimum I feel like I can get away with.

The problem I have is that the wines I plan on making will take a minimum of 3 years to understand how they will be That is a long learning curve!!!!

--kravi

 

[gregbathurst]

The biggest difference is the ripening of the grapes. In Europe budburst is generally quite late so the ripening period (veraison) is in the cooler part of the year, after the heat of summer. Places like California the weather is still quite hot after veraison, so the grapes ripen much sooner and you get a "fruitier" flavour. It all happens in the vineyard.
The verb is "vinify"