Need some help understanding water chemistry

[Jason1314]

Hey everyone! I just got an RO system installed at my house. I'm excited about this because now it gives me the opportunity to build specific water profiles! But here is the problem.... I understand almost nothing about water chemistry. At least I know enough now to be dangerous and ruin a batch lol.

However, I want to take a stab at brewing a Czech Pilsner. I know my water ph is now 6.5 and I also know that RO water is too soft to brew as it is. I know that the water needs something in the neighborhood of 20-30 ppm of calcium, 40-60 ppm of chloride, and about 5 ppm of sulfates (I believe is Gypsum?).

However this is where I get confused. When I shop around I do not see options to buy separately for Calcium and seperately for Chloride but instead I see Calcium Chloride. Is there as difference? How do I reconcile the fact that a target water profile has so many ppm of calcium and another so many ppm of chloride? Do I just add the two values together and add that much calcium chloride? As you can see I am hopelessly lost and any info that can be offered to help me out would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Dgallo]

Hey everyone! I just got an RO system installed at my house. I'm excited about this because now it gives me the opportunity to build specific water profiles! But here is the problem.... I understand almost nothing about water chemistry. At least I know enough now to be dangerous and ruin a batch lol.

However, I want to take a stab at brewing a Czech Pilsner. I know my water ph is now 6.5 and I also know that RO water is too soft to brew as it is. I know that the water needs something in the neighborhood of 20-30 ppm of calcium, 40-60 ppm of chloride, and about 5 ppm of sulfates (I believe is Gypsum?).

However this is where I get confused. When I shop around I do not see options to buy separately for Calcium and seperately for Chloride but instead I see Calcium Chloride. Is there as difference? How do I reconcile the fact that a target water profile has so many ppm of calcium and another so many ppm of chloride? Do I just add the two values together and add that much calcium chloride? As you can see I am hopelessly lost and any info that can be offered to help me out would be greatly appreciated.

For adjustments purposes in general, your primarily going to need CaCl and CaSo4 (gypsum) and/or mgso4 (epsom salt), NaCl (Table salt), baking soda, and lactic or phosphorus acid. when it comes to hitting your numbers, that’s all about playing around with the amount of each compound your going to add to your water and adjusting so you are close enough to what you are targeting.

 

[1HW]

Do you like solving puzzles? Think of brew water chemistry as a Sudoku puzzle. Except you get to drink it when you're done.

There are two main things that you are trying to accomplish when working with RODI water:

1. Getting the additions right so that your mash pH ends up between 5.2 and 5.6.

2. Getting the Chloride to Sulfate ratio to match the style of beer you are trying to brew.

You're correct that you can't just add calcium or chloride. The main puzzle pieces that you'll be using are:

Calcium Chloride (CaCl2), Gypsum (CaSO4), Epsom Salt (MgS04), table salt (NaCl), and baking soda (NaHCO3). Some people and brewing software packages also suggest using chalk (aka Calcium Carbonate; CaCO3), but it does not really dissolve well in your water/mash, so the Water Gurus™ that are frantically typing their replies as I type mine will generally tell you to leave it out of your arsenal of tools.
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1. Your Happy Place. We need to get your mash pH to its happy place, which is approximately a pH of 5.4. 7 is neutral. The malt that comprises your grain bill will help to lower the pH towards its happy place. Darker malts do this better than light malts (e.g., pilsner). Puzzle pieces that include Ca and Mg help your mash on their journey to their happy place (pH = 5.4).

Working against this is something called Alkalinity (buffering). You can think of alkalinity/buffering like a spring that is attached to 7 pH. The more buffered the water/mash, the stronger the spring is, and the harder it becomes to pull your mash to its happy pH. Puzzle pieces with CO3 in them make the spring stronger.

What you probably realized by now is that you can't just add parts of puzzle pieces. If, for example, you add Calcium chloride (CaCO3), the Ca helps pull your mash towards its happy place, but the CO3 adds buffering capacity (i.e., makes the spring tighter).

“I'm afraid that sometimes you'll play lonely games too. Games you can't win 'cause you'll play against you.” — Dr. Seuss

Sometimes you won't be able to get your mash to its happy pH even with Ca and Mg puzzle pieces. In this case (which is common for light lagers/pilsners), you'll need to have some acid on hand (usually lactic acid).

2. Bittersweet Surrender. The puzzle pieces can also balance the flavor of your beer. Puzzle pieces with chloride (Cl) will balance your wort towards maltiness/sweetness. Puzzle pieces with sulfate (SO4) will tilt your wort towards the bitter/dry flavors.
_________________________________________

Typically, we use brewing software to generate water profiles for each brew given the various styles. Often, people use these profiles blindly without an understanding of the goals of the process. Hopefully, now that you have a sense of what the puzzle pieces do and what the goals of the game are, you can start constructing a water profile for your brews.

 

[1HW]

However, I want to take a stab at brewing a Czech Pilsner. I know my water ph is now 6.5

Paradoxically, RODI water will not have a stable pH. This is because there is nothing buffering it (see my post above re buffering).

 

[Jason1314]

Do you like solving puzzles? Think of brew water chemistry as a Sudoku puzzle. Except you get to drink it when you're done.

There are two main things that you are trying to accomplish when working with RODI water:

1. Getting the additions right so that your mash pH ends up between 5.2 and 5.6.

2. Getting the Chloride to Sulfate ratio to match the style of beer you are trying to brew.

You're correct that you can't just add calcium or chloride. The main puzzle pieces that you'll be using are:

Calcium Chloride (CaCl2), Gypsum (CaSO4), Epsom Salt (MgS04), table salt (NaCl), and baking soda (NaHCO3). Some people and brewing software packages also suggest using chalk (aka Calcium Carbonate; CaCO3), but it does not really dissolve well in your water/mash, so the Water Gurus™ that are frantically typing their replies as I type mine will generally tell you to leave it out of your arsenal of tools.
_______________________________________

1. Your Happy Place. We need to get your mash pH to its happy place, which is approximately a pH of 5.4. 7 is neutral. The malt that comprises your grain bill will help to lower the pH towards its happy place. Darker malts do this better than light malts (e.g., pilsner). Puzzle pieces that include Ca and Mg help your mash on their journey to their happy place (pH = 5.4).

Working against this is something called Alkalinity (buffering). You can think of alkalinity/buffering like a spring that is attached to 7 pH. The more buffered the water/mash, the stronger the spring is, and the harder it becomes to pull your mash to its happy pH. Puzzle pieces with CO3 in them make the spring stronger.

What you probably realized by now is that you can't just add parts of puzzle pieces. If, for example, you add Calcium chloride (CaCO3), the Ca helps pull your mash towards its happy place, but the CO3 adds buffering capacity (i.e., makes the spring tighter).



Sometimes you won't be able to get your mash to its happy pH even with Ca and Mg puzzle pieces. In this case (which is common for light lagers/pilsners), you'll need to have some acid on hand (usually lactic acid).

2. Bittersweet Surrender. The puzzle pieces can also balance the flavor of your beer. Puzzle pieces with chloride (Cl) will balance your wort towards maltiness/sweetness. Puzzle pieces with sulfate (SO4) will tilt your wort towards the bitter/dry flavors.
_________________________________________

Typically, we use brewing software to generate water profiles for each brew given the various styles. Often, people use these profiles blindly without an understanding of the goals of the process. Hopefully, now that you have a sense of what the puzzle pieces do and what the goals of the game are, you can start constructing a water profile for your brews.

That was so incredibly helpful! Thank you so much! Ok, I think I'm getting what you're saying and I think I'm going to reevaluate everything before I just go dumping tons of stuff into the water. Thanks so much again! I really appreciate it!

 

[Jason1314]

For adjustments purposes in general, your primarily going to need CaCl and CaSo4 (gypsum) and/or mgso4 (epsom salt), NaCl (Table salt), baking soda, and lactic or phosphorus acid. when it comes to hitting your numbers, that’s all about playing around with the amount of each compound your going to add to your water and adjusting so you are close enough to what you are targeting.

I can see how you would have to kind of tinker and tweak to sort of land where you want. Very cool! Thank you for your great response!

 

[Dgallo]

I can see how you would have to kind of tinker and tweak to sort of land where you want. Very cool! Thank you for your great response!

https://www.brunwater.com/This is the program I use. If you take the time to read the introduction to water chem it will help. The man who created the spread sheet is one of our own HBT Members and still is active and has been more than willing to help people as well

 

[Jason1314]

https://www.brunwater.com/This is the program I use. If you take the time to read the introduction to water chem it will help. The man who created the spread sheet is one of our own HBT Members and still is active and has been more than willing to help people as well

Awesome! Thank you! I'll check it out. I'll read through the intro stuff too! I'll take all the info I can get

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Hey everyone! I just got an RO system installed at my house. I'm excited about this because now it gives me the opportunity to build specific water profiles! But here is the problem.... I understand almost nothing about water chemistry. At least I know enough now to be dangerous and ruin a batch lol.

Have you seen Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery (which is a short version of A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer)? The first article includes some information on RO water adjustments for Czech Pilsners.

 

[1HW]

Here is an example of the puzzle for Czech Pils. You have a light to medium lager, and it's going to be hard to get to our happy mash pH. Moreover, if you're using the John Palmer, Water Guru™ approach, you only want about 50 Ca, so we can't go nuts with Ca puzzle pieces.

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! — Dr. Peter Venkman, Ghostbusters

We also can't just add Ca by itself. Well, technically, we can add it by itself to the brewing software. But this can't happen in the real world. Note that calcium, magnesium, and sodium all have little + signs (they're cations). And any time you add cats you have balance it with dogs (or anions if we're being scientifically correct). The anions are the Cl, SO4, and CO3 parts of your puzzle pieces.

Here's an example of building a water profile in brewfather.app. It's free if you only make one recipe. You could do the same thing in BeerSmith (free or premium versions) as well as Brewersfriend.com and other spreadsheet approaches like Bru'N Water. I like brewfather.app for giving examples because it shows you some important things in an easy-to-see format.

In this example, we have an ion imbalance. You can't create a real water profile with these parameters.

We could get to 50 ppm Ca by adding calcium chloride (CaCl), gypsum (CaS04), or chalk (CaCO3). Chalk doesn't dissolve well in mash, and the CO3-part of the chalk would buffer your mash against the goal of getting to you happy mash pH. Between CaCl and gypsum, it probably makes sense to add it as CaCl and not as gypsum (CaSO4) for the style (noble hops and sulfate could equate to some harsh bitterness). So let's do CaCl.

In this example, we added 3 g of CaCl. This gives us 50 ppm (parts per million) Ca and 88 Cl. It also helped to lower the mash pH to 5.6.

Some would call it good here. Others might tinker a bit more to get the mash pH lower either by adding some lactic acid or by adding acidulated malt to the grain bill to bring it down to say 5.4.

In the end, it's just a puzzle with multiple moving pieces. If you add cats (Ca, Mg, Na) to the profile, the mash pH will go down. Ca is more effective than Mg. And Mg and Na in higher amounts can alter taste. Every time you add a cat, you have to add dogs (anions: Cl, SO4, HCO3) to balance world order. Cl emphasizes malty, sweet, mouthfeel. SO4 emphasizes bitter dryness. HCO3 is the buffer that tightens the spring and makes it harder to get to your mash happy pH.

Hope this helps frame the game.

 

[Jason1314]

Here is an example of the puzzle for Czech Pils. You have a light to medium lager, and it's going to be hard to get to our happy mash pH. Moreover, if you're using the John Palmer, Water Guru™ approach, you only want about 50 Ca, so we can't go nuts with Ca puzzle pieces.



We also can't just add Ca by itself. Well, technically, we can add it by itself to the brewing software. But this can't happen in the real world. Note that calcium, magnesium, and sodium all have little + signs (they're cations). And any time you add cats you have balance it with dogs (or anions if we're being scientifically correct). The anions are the Cl, SO4, and CO3 parts of your puzzle pieces.

Here's an example of building a water profile in brewfather.app. It's free if you only make one recipe. You could do the same thing in BeerSmith (free or premium versions) as well as Brewersfriend.com and other spreadsheet approaches like Bru'N Water. I like brewfather.app for giving examples because it shows you some important things in an easy-to-see format.

View attachment 700769
In this example, we have an ion imbalance. You can't create a real water profile with these parameters.

We could get to 50 ppm Ca by adding calcium chloride (CaCl), gypsum (CaS04), or chalk (CaCO3). Chalk doesn't dissolve well in mash, and the CO3-part of the chalk would buffer your mash against the goal of getting to you happy mash pH. Between CaCl and gypsum, it probably makes sense to add it as CaCl and not as gypsum (CaSO4) for the style (noble hops and sulfate could equate to some harsh bitterness). So let's do CaCl.

View attachment 700772
In this example, we added 3 g of CaCl. This gives us 50 ppm (parts per million) Ca and 88 Cl. It also helped to lower the mash pH to 5.6.

Some would call it good here. Others might tinker a bit more to get the mash pH lower either by adding some lactic acid or by adding acidulated malt to the grain bill to bring it down to say 5.4.

In the end, it's just a puzzle with multiple moving pieces. If you add cats (Ca, Mg, Na) to the profile, the mash pH will go down. Ca is more effective than Mg. And Mg and Na in higher amounts can alter taste. Every time you add a cat, you have to add dogs (anions: Cl, SO4, HCO3) to balance world order. Cl emphasizes malty, sweet, mouthfeel. SO4 emphasizes bitter dryness. HCO3 is the buffer that tightens the spring and makes it harder to get to your mash happy pH.

Hope this helps frame the game.

Wow yes! That does help a lot! Thank you so much! I'm going to downlad the brewfather app. I really appreciate you breaking it down for me like that, it helps a lot and I feel like I'm getting a better grip on this. I own the premium version of Beersmith but I have only ever used it for recipe design, mash schedule etc. So between this, BruNWater, and brewfather I think I have enough of an understanding to play around with the profile enough to make it owrkable for whatever style I'm going for. This is all really fascinating stuff to me!

 

[Jason1314]

Have you seen Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery (which is a short version of A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer)? The first article includes some information on RO water adjustments for Czech Pilsners.

No I haven't but I'm definitely going to check this out . That sounds just like what I'm after, so thank you very much I really appreciate it!!!

 

[VikeMan]

While we're all throwing resources at you, here's another:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Intro-to-Brewing-Water-Treatment.pdfIt's a general intro to brewing water treatment, and slide 9 shows one approach to building from distilled/RO, which you might find useful.

 

[Jason1314]

While we're all throwing resources at you, here's another:
http://sonsofalchemy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Intro-to-Brewing-Water-Treatment.pdfIt's a general intro to brewing water treatment, and slide 9 shows one approach to building from distilled/RO, which you might find useful.

HAHA! Yes I would find that useful! Thank you so much! This is great! I'm totally gonna check this out!