Need more Automation!

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BrokenHorn

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Ok, so I don't really NEED more automation, but I'm having as much fun learning how to do it as I do brewing beer (sorry if that's blasphemous here...). I want to get my system to the point that I can run it semi-manually or plug in the variables, hit start, and let it run.

Right now my system is similar to Kal's setup, but uses a MicroLogix PLC and touchscreen HMI. I've got 30 gallon kettles and 5500W elements.

I'm thinking that I want to change it to a RIMS system, add all the instruments for full automation, and hard pipe it. Also, what is isn't shown is I'll eventually add hoppers to drop in the various grain, hops, etc when it reaches that stage of the process.

I've made a P&ID and then colored it up to show the flow of each step. Anyone see any issues with how I have it setup? Do you have any input on things that should be added/removed/changed? I'll have other questions later more specific to the instruments and hardware, but right now just focusing on the process.

Let me know if I need to clarify something on the P&ID or it doesn't make sense. Thanks for looking and any comments/feedback are appreciated.


HERMS_Design_1_edited.jpg


HERMS_Design_1_edited_Highlighted_Steps.jpg
 
Looking good. If you're going to try for that level of automation, you may as well figure out a solution that gives you clean-in-place. I'm curious about how you implement the flow transmitter, level transmitter, etc. I've tried to source these economically and failed.

edit: take a look at Elkoe's work in progress. the current iteration of his very plans are in the github repository of brewpi.
 
Thanks aangel

If you're going to try for that level of automation, you may as well figure out a solution that gives you clean-in-place.

That's a good point. I assume that cleaning out the spent grain will always have to be done by hand unless I use a bag or completely redesign my MT. Also, the bag and mixer may not be a good combination if the mixer caught the bag and tried to wrap it up. I'll think about it and see what I can come up with.

I'm curious about how you implement the flow transmitter, level transmitter, etc. I've tried to source these economically and failed.

I don't have all the hardware nailed down yet, but here is a couple things I've found that might work. They're cheap options so if they don't work well I'll just upgrade to something else. Also, to cut cost, anything that flows clean water will probably be a solenoid valve instead of a ball valve.

Ball Valve (on/off) - Cheap ones from China. They're about $30 each

Ball Valve (modulating) - This will be the hard one. I haven't found these for less than about $150. I may start looking at something other than ball valves for this.

Solenoid Valve - Cheap and easy to source

Motor - HLT Motor MT Motor

Level Transmitter - build my own using a distance measurement from something like a Proximity Sensor. If I can't get that to work well, then I'll go with the weight method that some people have used.

Level Switch - I already have these and they work well.

Flow Switch - Cheap and easy to source

Flow Transmitter - I'm considering this Water Heater Flow Counter

edit: take a look at Elkoe's work in progress. the current iteration of his very plans are in the github repository of brewpi.

I'll look it up, thanks. I'm envious of Trimixdiver1's setup, but that's a bit higher spec than what I'll be able to accomplish right from the start.
 
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I'm excited about the options you've found. Of course with the flow transmitter and level sensor, the devil's in the details (specifically accuracy). Controlling the exact volumes of liquid might be tricky with standard pumps...I was wondering if a tube pump could be used to provide exact volume controls.

As for clean in place, a 6" triclamp port on the bottom of your mash tun makes it a bit easier - of course that part will be manual and not automated but oh well.

Couple other things I ran into:
-full drain / pump - since brewery pumps can't push air, must consider the liquid left in the pipes after each stage of the process. I really wish I could find a solution to this - there can be 1L+ left in piping!
-clean in place: you need a certain PSI pressure in the pipes and spray balls for them to operate. Common home brew pumps won't cut it, need a lot more pressure. Shouldn't be too pricey, there are <$100 pumps that can do 60PSI.
-cip: ball valves are not sanitary, period. Even butterfly valves technically aren't sanitary. So far the only option I've found is "isolation diaphragm valve" - found them on alibaba with actuator for ~$100-$150 each but never got a response from the vendors.
-cip2: those valves, and pipes for that matter, need to be at a 15 degree offset off the horizontal to enable full drain, else you get standing water and thus unsanitary conditions.

And, of course the final challenge is programming: even brewtroller, as of now, needs work to support all the logic you desire.

Oh and liquid level sensing: found this a few links away from your sensor:

http://www.milonetech.com/uploads/Chemical_eTape_Datasheet.pdf

much greater resolution than the infrared distance sensor. Food safe too.
 
I'm excited about the options you've found. Of course with the flow transmitter and level sensor, the devil's in the details (specifically accuracy). Controlling the exact volumes of liquid might be tricky with standard pumps...

Accuracy will have to be sacrificed some, but that can be fixed later with higher-end instruments once I verify the system works well enough. I'm more worried about repeatability. I can tolerate some inaccuracy as long its consistent.

I was wondering if a tube pump could be used to provide exact volume controls.

I'm not familiar with those, but I'll do some checking around. I assume its a positive displacement pump? I recently decided to take a different route than what I listed above. Instead of using my Chugger pumps and adding a modulating control valve to regulate flow, I was going to replace my pumps with something like these Variable Speed Solar Pumps. I can vary the speed to control flow rates by sending it a 0-5V signal.

As for clean in place, a 6" triclamp port on the bottom of your mash tun makes it a bit easier - of course that part will be manual and not automated but oh well.

Actually, I think I could still automate that, but that would take some engineering to get a large port that opens on the side of the kettle (and will still seal tightly). There's a process called Air Scour (or Filter Backwash) that wastewater plants use where if you flowed water at high rate from the bottom (so IN the outlet) and pumped a large volume of air in from under the false bottom, it should create enough turbulence to carry most of the grain out of the large drain port with the water. If I'm already going to need a high flow pump for the CIP balls, I could utilize that and my air compressor. I doubt I'd ever go through this effort when a shop vac works, but who knows, I might get bored and want to add another step to the process one day.

Couple other things I ran into:
-full drain / pump - since brewery pumps can't push air, must consider the liquid left in the pipes after each stage of the process. I really wish I could find a solution to this - there can be 1L+ left in piping!

I think the air compressor tied into the tubing system with a solenoid valve should take care of this. The valves in the system could isolate different sections so you could blow it out effectively. I work for a control valve company, so I could get a knockout filter easily to try to clean up the air some. I'd buy the valves from work too, but everything we sell is higher spec and $$$$.

-clean in place: you need a certain PSI pressure in the pipes and spray balls for them to operate. Common home brew pumps won't cut it, need a lot more pressure. Shouldn't be too pricey, there are <$100 pumps that can do 60PSI.

Ok, thanks. I didn't know that. I think I saw some when I was searching around, but I like the idea of having a dedicated pump for the CIP system as well. Does it need a high volume as well?

-cip: ball valves are not sanitary, period. Even butterfly valves technically aren't sanitary. So far the only option I've found is "isolation diaphragm valve" - found them on alibaba with actuator for ~$100-$150 each but never got a response from the vendors.

I did a quick search on the diaphragm valves and couldn't find any that I liked, but I did get a good laugh out of these High TEMPRESSURE Valves :D I'll do some more checking into it.

-cip2: those valves, and pipes for that matter, need to be at a 15 degree offset off the horizontal to enable full drain, else you get standing water and thus unsanitary conditions.

The compressed air blow-out should take care of this, but I may still put some angles to it so gravity can help.

And, of course the final challenge is programming: even brewtroller, as of now, needs work to support all the logic you desire.

I've got this part covered (sort of). My system is already controlled by a PLC and 15" HMI. Both pieces of hardware have plenty of programming capability. I only say 'sort of' because I'm not highly trained on programming. I just know enough to fumble my way through it and eventually get it working with the help of forums and IOM's.

Oh and liquid level sensing: found this a few links away from your sensor:

http://www.milonetech.com/uploads/Chemical_eTape_Datasheet.pdf

much greater resolution than the infrared distance sensor. Food safe too.

I would much rather use one of those eTape's, but they are only rated to 150F. I'm still looking for one that is rated for higher temps.


I appreciate all the ideas and suggestions!
 
As for CIP flow rates and specs, my source is this: http://www.bccdc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/BF40BB53-6264-48AD-8A25-A09F43B5CAF0/0/DairyProcessingCleaning.pdf They mention flow rate (5m/s minimum to create turbulent flow? Another resource I found says 5ft/s) and PSI values for sprayballs too.

Those tube pumps are probably better known as peristaltic pumps. Very similar concept to sanitary isolation valves. Speaking of, I bookmarked a few a while back:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Stainless-Steel-Pneumatic-Diaphragm-Valve-membrane_1844360154.html

http://efun.en.alibaba.com/product/357376835-200398024/Sanitary_pneumatic_diaphragm_valve.html

http://aking-valves.com/sanitary-diaphragm-valve.html

Bah, I didn't notice that tape sensor only goes to 150. Oh well.

Incidentally, awesome idea of using compressed air to purge liquid from dead spots in the system. I assume you'd use check valves to avoid jamming up the pumps with air?

Also, I own one of those pumps you mentioned. They're much cheaper (?) in Canada - like $60-$70 bucks here. OBK and Greatbreweh sell them, and the latter has variable speed controllers too.

Btw this has a few valuable tips on implementing CIP for food/beverage applications: http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/magazine-archive1/octobernovember-2005/top-tips-to-make-your-cip-and-cop-systems-work-for-you/
 

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