Need Kirin or Sapporo or Orion Style Recipe Please

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J8D

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Brewers,

I have done several searches but still have not found much assistance as it relates to a good Japanese style beer recipe. Many comments are angled towards "it is just Budweiser so brew an American Lager". Having lived in Japan for eight years, I have to disagree. There is just something different about their beer. As a novice brewer, I can't put a finger on it. I tried one batch using the below recipe, but I am on week five of fermentation (@ 50 to 55) and my gravity has only dropped from an OG of 1.044 to 1.042. It is still bubbling away, to include an initial machine gun style fermentation. So I believe I screwed it up. I may have messed up on the OG reading but I don't think so. Any OTHER recipes or recommendations on the below would be greatly appreciated. In addition, I am doing all grain as well so an all grain recipe would be preferred. Thank you and Semper Fi!!!! J8D:rockin:

1/2 lb carapils
4 lbs pale or extra light malt extract
2 lbs rice syrup solids
1 oz Czech Saaz (60 min)
1/4 oz saaz (15 min)
1/4 oz hersbrucker (15 min)
1/4 oz saaz (1 min)
1/4 oz hersbrucker (1 min)
Wyeast 2007 Pilsen Lager yeast
 
hrm, Orion is pretty darn tasty. There is something different about that one. I would be highly interested in a recipe.
 
hrm, Orion is pretty darn tasty. There is something different about that one. I would be highly interested in a recipe.

Well if the truth must be known, I am specifically shooting for an Orion. However, since it was only approved for export to mainland Japan from Okinawa in the past five (plus or minus) years, it has hardly made any headway into the states. So if I asked for a recipe, most people would have never heard of it. Trader Joes has had it at some locations. Military bases (Quantico, VA) has carried it, but likely based on requests from guys like myself.

I am really kicking myself in the rear for not taking a tour of the Orion brewery now. I could have gotten some inside skinny. Damn those karaoke, spearfishing, night golfing, poker playing, and beer drinking distracters!!!

J8D
 
I've not been able to get a hold of anything but those beers brewed in North American (Kirin and Sapporo) and haven't been all that impressed. Better than Bud, but not by much.

Watching this thread for a decent recipe. Maybe something 60% 2row and 40% rice to around 1.045 SG with that hop schedule would be interesting.
 
Well if the truth must be known, I am specifically shooting for an Orion. However, since it was only approved for export to mainland Japan from Okinawa in the past five (plus or minus) years, it has hardly made any headway into the states. So if I asked for a recipe, most people would have never heard of it. Trader Joes has had it at some locations. Military bases (Quantico, VA) has carried it, but likely based on requests from guys like myself.

I am really kicking myself in the rear for not taking a tour of the Orion brewery now. I could have gotten some inside skinny. Damn those karaoke, spearfishing, night golfing, poker playing, and beer drinking distracters!!!

J8D

A friend of mine sends me packs of it from Japan every time he goes over there. I wish they would sell it down here, but I can't even find it in San Antonio around all the military bases.
 
I really like Sapporo and Kirin Lager, but the stuff they sell here is made in Ontario and does not taste like the original version. Also interested in a good recipe.
 
Haven't tried Orion but I Kirin/Sapporo are nothing special, imo. Have you tried the Hitachino Nest beer? Some of those are pretty good, especially the white beer.
 
I have tried Hitachino and do like them, but a little too much $$. I lived in Japan for a while, so I would want to clone Sapporo more for the taste of old times than for the merits of the beer on it's own - which I still consider to be much better than most BMC. I will try more of the Hitachino beers though, and Orion if I ever see it around.
 
I really don't think there's anything really special about any of those beers, except possibly some ingredient about which we know nothing.

They're all high-adjunct lagers. The difference between them and BMC offerings is the same as between Light American Lagers and Standard American Lager: there's a little more body and flavor, but still nothing sticks out. Hell, BJCP lists Kirin as one of the benchmark brands for 1B - Standard American Lager.

I think the difference, if any, between the stuff in Japan and the stuff you get here exists because of your perception. It was just better when we were 'over there', sort of thing.

Look, these brewing companies are huge, with plants all over the place. Just like A/B, the beer has to be consistent not only from batch to batch but from plant to plant. A guy drinking a bottle of Bud in LAX expects the same taste at EWK; so the beer brewed at Fairfield has to be exactly the same as that brewed at Newark. In the same way, Kirin brewed in Japan has to taste the same as that brewed in Canada. When you're a $800 million-plus company, that's what you do. You adjust water chemistry, you use tight tolerances on raw materials, you use laboratory equipment as well as comprehensive tasting panels to analyse the product, etc.

In short, it's more than probably the same beer, guys. You're just drinking it from rose-colored glasses. (How's that for a mixed metaphor? :D )

Bob
 
Surprising you guys don't see Orion much. I am in a beer black hole and it's here.


Hitacho Nest, not so much.

Never been much for the TsingTsao, Sapporro, et al but this thread did inspire me to pick up a Sapporro Black and an Orion.

Can't hurt. Can it?
 
In short, it's more than probably the same beer, guys. You're just drinking it from rose-colored glasses. (How's that for a mixed metaphor? :D )

Bob

Hrm, I wonder if my beer would taste better if the labels were in japanese . . . . .


Your probably right. Would be fun though to make for old times sake.
 
Gilaminumbeer,

How was the Orion? Any different than the American lager replicating beers such as Kirin or Sapporo? I can handle the truth. :)

J8D
 
This is a complete guess, so I might be way off in saying this...

I lived in Japan for 6 months, and I always thought that the taste of Kirin, Asahi, et al. was much different over there than the brews under the same label in the US. Part of me attributes it to the setting (and drinking the stuff 6 nights a week), but if you had to peg it on something, the only things that could be different are the water composition, or the use of a higher quality rice (I mean, the country grows enough of it). If anything, I'd look there when trying to tweak a recipe, but again, that's a really wild guess. If it is just the ambiance that makes the brews tastier, you might be outta luck...
 
Gilaminumbeer,

How was the Orion? Any different than the American lager replicating beers such as Kirin or Sapporo? I can handle the truth. :)

J8D

I've actually not tried it yet. Picked it up yesterday. Got home and realized there is no room in the bottle fridge.

So, what's the proper glassware? A bowl? Sake cup? ;)
 
I've not been able to get a hold of anything but those beers brewed in North American (Kirin and Sapporo) and haven't been all that impressed. Better than Bud, but not by much.

Watching this thread for a decent recipe. Maybe something 60% 2row and 40% rice to around 1.045 SG with that hop schedule would be interesting.

So my problem with these types of beer and since you are saying these are made in the states even makes it worse but from a production standpoint these can't cost much more than bud to produce but they are charging twice as much and they don't spend much on advertising as bud does. Anyways, I know there are tons of other factors but the point is that they have brainwashed people into thinking they sell a premium product and expect to sell it at that price. Just like BL lime, I mean really it's bud light with a squeeze of lemon but it is 30% more than regular bud light, WTF... not that I buy it anyways, just pisses me off.
 
So my problem with these types of beer and since you are saying these are made in the states even makes it worse but from a production standpoint these can't cost much more than bud to produce but they are charging twice as much and they don't spend much on advertising as bud does. Anyways, I know there are tons of other factors but the point is that they have brainwashed people into thinking they sell a premium product and expect to sell it at that price. Just like BL lime, I mean really it's bud light with a squeeze of lemon but it is 30% more than regular bud light, WTF... not that I buy it anyways, just pisses me off.

That because it's expensive to translate between Japanese and Canadian.
 
i have a recipe for both Kirin Lager and Sapporo Black Stout Draft. They are both from the book called Clone Brews. I can post the info for both if you would like.
 
Having traveled around Japan several times, I can say that the beers there ARE different IME. I never tried Asahi so I can't vouch for that one. Kirin makes several expressions over there, Kirin classic being my favorite. It might be all malt I can't remember. Yebisu is a very good all malt beer with significant hop presence. Yebisu is imported to the states but you have to mail in a rebate (otherwise $16 a sixer). Kirin ichiban tastes to me a little hoppier and richer in Japan. Sapporo too. Great post-onsen beers! I think Yebisu (sounds a bit like ebis pronounced) is supposed to be of the Dortmunder style. Man I miss Japan - pretty much ruined my ability to enjoy sashimi in the states though!
 
I have also been looking very hard to find this recipe and am wanting to brew it asap. If you don't mind posting it...I would be very thankful.
 
i have a recipe for both Kirin Lager and Sapporo Black Stout Draft. They are both from the book called Clone Brews. I can post the info for both if you would like.

That would be great if you could throw it out there. Thank you!!!
 
Kirin Ichiban is actually brewed in Japan and imported to the states. But any Kirin Lager you buy in the states says "brewed and bottled by Anheiser Busch in Los Angeles" on the bottle. So, yeah, it's budweiser.

Having spent two years drinking draft beer in Japan by the gallon (mostly Kirin), I can tell you that it is damn refreshing, and surprisingly tasty for a lighter beer (my tastes usually run towards the belgian darks and IIPAs). Haven't tasted anything that comes close to it, even bottled Kirin Ichiban, since I've gotten back to the states. If you end up finding a good recipe, please repost in this thread (now that we're all subscribed)!

Thanks!
 
I don't drink Bud, Miller, etc all that often, but when I do I am always shocked by the watery taste. I don't get that with Kirin Ichiban or ther Asian style lagers. They are still light dry and crisp, but I would wager they use less adjunct and probably a little more hop profile.
 
I tried a recipe that I had worked on based on some of the comments on here. I added flaked rice as well. It currently is in the fridge lagering. Here is what I did:


Original Gravity (OG): 1.058 (°P): 14.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol (ABV): 5.70 %
Colour (SRM): 5.8 (EBC): 11.4
Bitterness (IBU): 41.0 (Average)

52.94% Dry Malt Extract - Light
23.53% Flaked Rice
23.53% Rice Syrup Solids

0.2 oz/Gal Sorachi (11.8% Alpha) @ 25 Minutes (Boil)
0.2 oz/Gal Sorachi (11.8% Alpha) @ 12 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 151°F for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 48°F with WLP802 - Czech Budejovice Lager
 
52.94% Dry Malt Extract - Light
23.53% Flaked Rice
23.53% Rice Syrup Solids

For us newbs out here, how do we translate this into amounts for a batch? Is there some rule of thumb for how much fermentables there should be per gallon? Should I be able to work backwards from the OG somehow?
 
I tried a recipe that I had worked on based on some of the comments on here. I added flaked rice as well. It currently is in the fridge lagering. Here is what I did:


Original Gravity (OG): 1.058 (°P): 14.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol (ABV): 5.70 %
Colour (SRM): 5.8 (EBC): 11.4
Bitterness (IBU): 41.0 (Average)

52.94% Dry Malt Extract - Light
23.53% Flaked Rice
23.53% Rice Syrup Solids

0.2 oz/Gal Sorachi (11.8% Alpha) @ 25 Minutes (Boil)
0.2 oz/Gal Sorachi (11.8% Alpha) @ 12 Minutes (Boil)


Single step Infusion at 151°F for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 48°F with WLP802 - Czech Budejovice Lager

Hey buddy how did this turn out?
 
I've taken the tour at the Orion brewery, but the time I spent in the tasting room at the end washed away any useful information that I might have.

Orion is a little different from mainland beer. When they started up after WWII, they tried to imitate the German-styled brews from the mainland, but I guess they reconsidered that a little. Apparently the US occupation brought in a team of experts from Falstaff to help the management at Orion get organized and brew a beer that would be popular with American GIs. So Falstaff's recipe might be a good place to start. There's one in a 2012 issue of BYO, but I don't have it. Also, they use Hallertauer and maybe some Saaz, and the grains are supposedly imported from Europe.
 
Was digging through hoping to find an Orion clone but alas it seems this thread never got there. As an unrepentant hop head, while I was traveling to Okinawa, Orion was a surprisingly tasty treat. I saw Orion on a menu in a Washington DC restaurant a few years ago. Still was pleasantly surprised.
 
Holy necro thread!

It appears some look for guidance on a recipe and never get one or provide feedback once they try something. I'm still on the hunt for producing a Kirin beer, but really have no reference as to what it actually tastes like. It's 100% malt, no rice. Don't tell me "Kirin" brewed in the sates is equal to what's actually brewed in Japan. There maybe similarities but it's not the same (no proof of it but I do believe that's the case). I think why some just gravitate to equating it to an American lager, is that is how Japan got started brewing their beers in the first place. In their brewing beginnings, they needed help and acquired talents from outside their level of expertise (brewing, malting, kilning, ect). That's where I can see people gravitating to making the assumption that it's all the same.
 
one of the major differences is not just process or recipe, but ingredients...
There's a few Brewers on HBT who are living in Japan at the moment... I wonder if they can shed some light?
As a for instance the Japanese barley has less protein apparently...
Also as far as I'm aware, the scrutiny for selecting quality rice is more emphasized as a cultural point of pride.
I wonder if anybody on HBT has tried cerealizing sushi rice to use in this style?
 
I wonder if hop selection plays a bit part too. Since every part of the world hops grow and express their flavors differently.
 
I wonder if hop selection plays a bit part too. Since every part of the world hops grow and express their flavors differently.
I think you're right, the grain bill is definitely part of it, but hops are what is going to really make a clone of Kirin or Sapporo. I've heard that Sorachi Ace hops were actually developed for Sapporo. Might be worth trying some of those New Zealand hops too, they have a lot of the same unique flavors as Sorachi.
 
I've been in Japan for over 20 years, but only brewing for about two. I'll try to give what little insight I have.

Remember that Sapporo, Kirin, Asahi, etc. are not beers. They are companies who make beer -- a reasonably wide range of beers. I assume that what people refer to as "Sapporo" is their Black Label (黒ラベル), Kirin would be Ichiban Shibori (一番搾り) and Asahi would be Super Dry (スーパードライ). Sorry for nitpicking.

Kirin's Ichiban Shibori, as @Ki-ri-n posted, is made from 100% malt. Black Label and Super Dry, and even Kirin Lager, contain up to 33% adjuncts (rice, corn and starch). Under Japanese tax law, a beer must contain at least 67% barley malt to be called a beer. Anything less than that would make it happoshu (発泡酒), which sells better than beer in terms of home consumption. Beer is taxed at a much higher rate, though I've read that the government is looking to even things out. Happoshu is almost never served in bars and restaurants, and it's not exported, as far as I know, as I've never seen it sold outside of Japan. Interestingly, since wheat malt is considered an adjunct, something like a witbier (Sapporo's White Belg comes to mind), is in the lower tax range, and sells for 40% less than the macro lagers.

The Japanese macro lagers have very light hop flavors. I've never bothered to try Orion (from Okinawa), but after reading @Steven Barrett's post, I'll have to give it a try. Regarding Sorachi Ace hops, I tried a can of Sapporo's Sorachi 1984, and it was simply yucky. The dill was just overpowering. I can't say I've ever noticed that flavor/aroma in Sapporo Black Label. They probably put some in there, but not a lot.

The only malt that's available to homebrewers in Japan is imported malt. My understanding is that barley farmers are contractually obligated to sell all of their harvests to whichever brewery they're affiliated with, so I couldn't tell you about the protein content.

If anyone has any specific questions I'll do my best to answer them.
 
Kirin had a WBC poster a few years ago and indicated that Ichiban was made with 100% pils malt and fermented with W34/70. I can't imagine the hops are anything special.
 
I bought a can of Kirin Ichiban Shibori shortly after my last post, but still haven't gotten around to drinking it. I had one on tap last night though, and I enjoyed it. There was nothing remarkable about it, but it was right about where it should be. Malty but not sweet, and just a hint of noble-y hops. I asked my 17-year-old daughter who's got a good nose, and she said it smelled floral, despite never having heard that term to describe beer.

BTW, the yakitori place was a bit of an outlier in that it had three kinds of bottled Japanese lager, but they were all adjunct lagers: Asahi Super Dry, Kirin Lager, and Sapporo Black Label.
 
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