Need help with my All Grain efficiency

[paradoc]

Greetings,

Just completed my second all grain batch, and need help figuring out why my efficiency is so poor! I've read the stickies here, and also several brewing books. I know there are a lot of things that contribute to efficiency. What I'm looking for is tips from folks using same process I'm using on how they achieve 80% efficiency with this method.

My first batch was an all grain IPA kit from Midwest. My predicted preboil gravity was 1.061, my actual was 1.038, for an efficiency of 45.3%. I got a lousy crush, which I thought explained my efficiency problems.

My second batch was EdWort's Bee Cave Oktoberfest kit from Brewmasters. I was excited because the crush looked MUCH better than the prior kit. My predicted preboil gravity was 1.065, actual 1.043, for an efficiency of 53.8%. Better, but way below my goal of 75%.

Here is my process/equipment:

I use a rectangular cooler with a stainless steel mesh braid from a hot water heater supply hose. I mash in with apx 1.25qt/lb, stir very well, and let the temp settle around 152 degrees. I've hit my temp exactly both times. I've got both a floating glass dairy thermometer, and an analog quick-read thermometer that both are within 1-2 degrees. I let the mash go 60 minutes the first time, 90 minutes the second time, and only lost 1-2 degrees. I vorlauf, then drain the first running and have collected 2-2.5 gallons of first runnings. Then I batch sparge using the no mash out double batch sparge technique from here. I add the sparge water, stir well, let it sit 5 minutes or so, vorlauf, then drain. My total collected volume was 6.5-7 gallons. My manifold/valve does drain pretty quick, so not sure how fast I should be draining the fluid.

Based on my reading here and in various books... it seems like I'm doing things the right way... but can't figure out why my efficiency is so poor. Any help is much appreciated.

One other question... if you don't get complete conversion, presumably you have a lot of non-fermentable starches left in your runoff. So... what happens to that during the fermentation? Does it impart off flavors?

Cheers!

 

[MajorTom]

Are you sure you have your predicted preboil gravities right and not confused with post boil. Those seem like awfully high preboil gravities to me, especially for an octoberfest.

 

[Brocster]

I had basically the same issues, not sure why. I will be watching this post....

 

[Yooper]

It sounds like you're doing everything right. But I'll pick at you a little bit to see if anything stands out, ok?

How's your mash ph, and/or water supply? Are you using any brewing salts or 5.2 stabilizer? Have you ever used iodine/Iodophor and tested for conversion?

Can you post a sample recipe, to make sure that you're using malts with enough diastatic power to convert? Also, post your OG with that recipe, and I'll see what kind of efficiency numbers I'd get with my system.

 

[paradoc]

How's your mash ph, and/or water supply?

We are on well-water, and I don't have an analyisis of the water. I know it is very hard, but not sure about the pH. I'd be willing to send a sample to get it analyzed if someone has a recommendation on where to do that.

Are you using any brewing salts or 5.2 stabilizer?

No brewing salts... as hard as our water is I doubt I will need any. But pH might be issue. I've got some pH paper at work and I'll see if I can measure a pH.

Have you ever used iodine/Iodophor and tested for conversion?

No, don't have any iodine, I use Starsan. But I'll get some iodine.

Can you post a sample recipe, to make sure that you're using malts with enough diastatic power to convert? Also, post your OG with that recipe, and I'll see what kind of efficiency numbers I'd get with my system.

The recipe I used is EdWort's Oktoberfest
My preboil gravity was 1.043 and the calculated preboil gravity from BeerAlchemy was 1.064 (based on efficiency of 75%). My OG after boiling was 1.064, BUT I added 1 pound of light DME to achieve my target gravity gravity.

Thanks!!

 

[Yooper]

We are on well-water, and I don't have an analyisis of the water. I know it is very hard, but not sure about the pH. I'd be willing to send a sample to get it analyzed if someone has a recommendation on where to do that.

No brewing salts... as hard as our water is I doubt I will need any. But pH might be issue. I've got some pH paper at work and I'll see if I can measure a pH.

No, don't have any iodine, I use Starsan. But I'll get some iodine.

The recipe I used is EdWort's Oktoberfest
My preboil gravity was 1.043 and the calculated preboil gravity from BeerAlchemy was 1.064 (based on efficiency of 75%). My OG after boiling was 1.064, BUT I added 1 pound of light DME to achieve my target gravity gravity.

Thanks!!

Well, if your OG was 1.064 after 1 pound of DME, your OG without the DME would be about 1.055 without it. That is about 54% efficiency.

I'm just guessing, but since your technique looks fine, I'm thinking it could be the water. Have you noticed any astringency or any strange flavors?

I'd suggest a couple of things- one is to check the mash ph (not the water ph- that doesn't really matter). Also, when you batch sparge, make sure your grain bed temperature (not the water temperature) gets to 165-168 or so. You can drain quickly when you batch sparge. Make sure you're stirring really well when you add the sparge water.

I'm going to send a water sample to Ward's Labs because I have very hard water and make great dark beers, but not so good light colored beers. To get around that for now, I'm buying distilled water for lighter beers, and mixing it 50/50 with my tap water. Not very scientific, I know, but it seems to help. I had some hops harshness in my lighter colored beers, but make some kickass IPAs- so I'm pretty happy with my water overall. Still, paying $15 and getting back the profile is worth it to me.

 

[paradoc]

Still, paying $15 and getting back the profile is worth it to me.

Where are you sending your water for $15 and getting a water analysis? I've found couple of online places that do water analysis... but much more expensive than that.

Our water is hard, but excellent quality. No flavors at all... "clear mountain spring water" at its best

I did a little Googling... and found the following website:
Water Resources of the United States—Annual Water Data Reports
Your tax dollars at work! Located a well just a couple of miles from my house, and here is what the water analysis showed:
pH = 7.3
Doesn't tell me CaCO3, Ca, or Mg... but surprised to see how alkaline our pH was. Time to get some FiveStar 5.2 pH stabilizer I guess

 

[Yooper]

Oops! Looks like they raised the price to $16.50: Ward Laboratories, Agricultural Testing, Consulting, Kearney, Nebraska

I keep meaning to do this, and I will probably do it this month.

 

[The Pol]

I dont know what is going on here.

You are talking about pre-boil gravity targets being 1.064... which is impossible if the OG of the beer is only 1.062 per the recipe.

When exactly are you measuring the gravity? What exactly are you comparing it to? Pre-boil graivty is fine and all, but it cannot be compared to the recipe OG, which it sounds like you were doing.

Also, 1.25qt/pound is pretty darned thick. Try a thinner mash, 1.75-2qt/lb... you can get much better conversion eff. which it sounds like is seriously lacking in your system. Water PH and makeup can be a culprit as well... but you might as well look in all areas.

THIN the mash out

STIR it well, with a 1.25qt/lb mash it would be EASY to have doughballs in there killing your eff.

KNOW what you are measuring, pre-boil and recipe OG are completely different beasts... one is a measure of the mash eff. and the other is a measure of brewhouse eff.

TRY a recipe using 50% distilled and 50% spring water and see if that increases your eff. If so, then your water is to blame.

I will admit, I am confused by your posts because you kept using pre-boil gravity in conjunction with the recipe OG of 1.064... so I am not sure what or how you are even measuring this.

 

[Yooper]

No, Edwort's recipe is already assuming a lower efficiency. With that recipe, my system would give me an OG of 1.071 or so. I used the recipe, and figured the OP's efficiency at 54%.

 

[paradoc]

I cant believe this was missed.

This is your problem, you arent measuring your gravity correctly. EdWorts recipe shows an OG of 1.062... this is POST BOIL. I dont know what is wrong with BeerAlchemy, but I wouldnt use it if it is telling you that using EdWorts recipe you should have a PRE BOIL gravity of 1.064, that is IMPOSSIBLE... at least on this planet.

Your OG, AFTER THE BOIL should be 1.062 as per EdWorts recipe, so there is no possible way that your PRE BOIL gravity can be higher, regardless of what BeerAlchemy is telling you. Your eff. isnt bad, but your softrware stinks.

Hmmm.. I was actually using EdWort's calculated OG of 1.062 was my target, not the predicted numbers from BeerAlchemy. But now that you mention it... BeerAlchemy does predict a preboil gravity of 1.064, and post boil of 1.076, which is way off. I suspect I've got the volumes or ingredients wrong in the recipe somewhere.

Here is how I calculated my gravity, and my late DME addition to hit my target gravity of 1.062:

I collected 7 gallons of wort with gravity of 1.043.
7 gallons x 43 gravity points = 301 gravity points in wort

My target OG was 5.5 gallons x 62 gravity points = 341 gravity points

341 gravity points - 301 gravity points = 40 gravity points difference

I added 1 pound of DME (apx 45 extract points) to make up the difference.

Does that look right?

 

[The Pol]

I dunno, I use ProMash, I never do it long hand, I always screw it up.

Yoop claims to have figured your eff at 54%... Id take some of the recommendations from this thread and brew this same beer again... I think you will see a large change.

 

[planenut]

Are you cooling your sample before checking with the hydrometer or adjusting for the temperature?

1.043 @ 150 = 1.062 according to my calculations

 

[paradoc]

Are you cooling your sample before checking with the hydrometer or adjusting for the temperature?

Yes, I am adjusting for temp. I have a refractometer, and also checked it with hydrometer. Both adjusted for temp.

 

[paradoc]

Well... got my water analysis results back from Ward Labs. Great service for $16.50. Only took a couple of days. They send you the sample container for free.

Here are my results:

pH 8.0
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 188
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.31
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.2 / 3.3
ppm
Sodium, Na 8
Potassium, K 2
Calcium, Ca 42
Magnesium, Mg 9
Total Hardness, CaCO3 143
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.4 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 3
Carbonate, CO3 6
Bicarbonate, HCO3 166
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 146

From reading through the water analysis section of How to Brew, it looks to me like my water is hard, but not "granite", and my water pH is alkaline. Looks like this is more likely to affect color than efficiency to me. None of these numbers jump out at me as being way out of range. I know that it is the mash pH that matters more than the water pH. I've ordered some Fivestar 5.2 pH Stabilizer to try with my next batch.

Do these numbers look like they would explain my poor efficiency?

 

[devils4ever]

I'm having problems with low efficiency, too. I think it's my water since I've ruled out almost everything else.

I had my water analyzed by Ward Labs and here's my results:

• pH: 7.4
• Total Dissolved Solids: 239
• Sodium, Na: 43 PPM
• Potassium, K: 1 PPM
• Calcium, Ca: 22 PPM
• Magnesium, Mg: 10 PPM
• Total Hardness, CaCO3: 97 PPM
• Nitrate, NO3-N: 1.9 PPM
• Sulfate, SO4-S: 3 PPM
• Chloride, Cl: 56 PPM
• Carbonate, CO3: <1 PPM
• Bicarbonate, HCO3: 116 PPM
• Total Alkalinity, CaCO3: 95 PPM

I think I need to raise my Ca level to above 50 PPM and maybe get my Sulfates up to 100 PPM - 200 PPM. I'm thinking of adding gypsum to do this.