Need help understanding lagers.

[autonomist3k]

I brewed Jamil's North of the Border Vienna Lager,
OG 1.053
Yeast saflager s-23
Estimated FG 1.013
Fermentation temperature 50*

I cooled the wort down to about 70 (couldn't get it any colder), pitched the yeast and put it in the fermentation chamber, and let the chamber cool it to 50*.

Today (8 days later) the SG is at 1.043.

Everyone seems to say different things about fermentation schedule though, I've read that it should take 30 days, and including the book I got the recipe from (brewing classic styles) I've read that it should take about a week, and then you do a diacetyl.
The book says that after about 6 days it should be time to do a diacetyl, but my understanding is that you only do a diacetyl once fermentation is about 75% complete, it's been 8 days and my fermentation is only about 25% complete.

Can anyone help me understand what I should be doing?

 

[Jcruse]

I brewed Jamil's North of the Border Vienna Lager,
OG 1.053
Yeast saflager s-23
Estimated FG 1.013
Fermentation temperature 50*

I cooled the wort down to about 70 (couldn't get it any colder), pitched the yeast and put it in the fermentation chamber, and let the chamber cool it to 50*.

Today (8 days later) the SG is at 1.043.

Everyone seems to say different things about fermentation schedule though, I've read that it should take 30 days, and including the book I got the recipe from (brewing classic styles) I've read that it should take about a week, and then you do a diacetyl.
The book says that after about 6 days it should be time to do a diacetyl, but my understanding is that you only do a diacetyl once fermentation is about 75% complete, it's been 8 days and my fermentation is only about 25% complete.

Can anyone help me understand what I should be doing?

How and how much yeast did you pitch? According to Mr. Malty, a lager around that OG will need two re-hydrated packs of dry yeast to ferment properly. Did you pitch the dry yeast directly into the wort? You lose about 50% of your cells by doing that.

Also, 50* is a bit on the low side for primary lager fermentation in my opinion. S-23 has an "ideal" fermentation range of 53.6-59°F. Try raising the temp to 54* and rouse the yeast some (stir/swirl gently), and see if it starts moving again. I'm currently fermenting an Oktoberfest with S-34/70 which has the same ideal fermentation range, and it developed a healthy Krausen within 4-5 days (I pitched 2 packets after rehydrating in 90* sterile water). I haven't taken an SG reading yet, but as the Krausen started to fall, I did the diacetyl rest at 68* for 2 days, and I'm currently ramping it back down to lagering temp (38*). Once I get ready to transfer to secondary/keg for lagering, I'll take my SG reading then to see where I ended up.

 

[masaba]

Are you reading the SG with a refractometer?

 

[autonomist3k]

I used one pack of yeast, and I rehydrated it, I think the recipe said to use one.
I'll bump it up a few degrees and see how that works.

I am using a refractometer but I also verified with my hydrometer, it seems pretty accurate but I'm always skeptical.

 

[BigFloyd]

I used one pack of yeast, and I rehydrated it, I think the recipe said to use one.
I'll bump it up a few degrees and see how that works.

I am using a refractometer but I also verified with my hydrometer, it seems pretty accurate but I'm always skeptical.

1) Your current gravity isn't 1.043. When you check SG after fermentation has begun, the presence of alcohol will skew the numbers to the high side. Either check it with a hydrometer or use the appropriate refractometer correction software.

2) Lagers need twice the pitch rate vs. a similar gravity ale. 2 packets of rehydrated dry yeast for this one.

3) Pitch cool. I go for 3*F below the initial target fermentation temp. You could have (and should have) placed the 70* wort into the ferm chamber several hours to let it get below 50*F then pitch the yeast.

 

[SanPancho]

i do nothing but lagers, and my advice is somewhere in the middle here.
1-double the amount of yeast, better to have too many than not enough.
2- make a starter, 4-5 days is alot of time for little nasties to potentially take over your wort. i dont use dry yeast, so i'm not an expert on its lag time, but i always use starter and see krausen within 24 hrs, 36 at most.
3- pitch at 60 or 65. the idea being you dont want to shock the yeast with big temp swing from starter/hydration slurry into wort. max 10F over 12 hours. so the nice thing about 65 is its generally room temp (for starters/hydration on the countertop) and then if you pitch into it, you just need to wait for a bit of krausen action to show up and then you can drop the 10F down to 55 which is good spot for alot of lager strains.

there's another method that may interest you if you have good temp control on your fermentor, "quick lager method" and there's a good writeup by a guy with a blog called brulosophy. i think he's here on forums too. grain to glass in 2.5 to 3 weeks. i have a super fast clean yeast so i dont use it, but alot of guys have great results with it. just wanna throw that in there so you can worry about some more stuff......

 

[green_giant43]

i do nothing but lagers, and my advice is somewhere in the middle here.
1-double the amount of yeast, better to have too many than not enough.
2- make a starter, 4-5 days is alot of time for little nasties to potentially take over your wort. i dont use dry yeast, so i'm not an expert on its lag time, but i always use starter and see krausen within 24 hrs, 36 at most.
3- pitch at 60 or 65. the idea being you dont want to shock the yeast with big temp swing from starter/hydration slurry into wort. max 10F over 12 hours. so the nice thing about 65 is its generally room temp (for starters/hydration on the countertop) and then if you pitch into it, you just need to wait for a bit of krausen action to show up and then you can drop the 10F down to 55 which is good spot for alot of lager strains.

there's another method that may interest you if you have good temp control on your fermentor, "quick lager method" and there's a good writeup by a guy with a blog called brulosophy. i think he's here on forums too. grain to glass in 2.5 to 3 weeks. i have a super fast clean yeast so i dont use it, but alot of guys have great results with it. just wanna throw that in there so you can worry about some more stuff......

http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

The link mentioned. I am doing an Oktoberfest with the Wyeast 2633 (IIRC) and had two 2L starters (big beer, slightly out of style.) I did 52 (right in the middle of the range) and then after 50% attenuation (as brulosophy mentions) I put it up to around 67. I'm probably checking it tomorrow and making sure FG is reached and slowly descending to cold crash it.

FWIW, it tastes great at the moment.

 

[Justdrumin]

Most of the time, I use one packet and make a 3-4 liter starter. Although this last batch the guy at my LHBS swore I could do it with one without a starter. It lagged a bit, but still produced a very nice clean Helles. Anyways, I ferment my starter at the same temp I plan to ferment my batch at in order to allow the yeast to adjust to the right temps. I then ferment at a very low temp for the yeast tolerance range. For me, it's usually around 50*F. Once it reaches 75% to og it's time to ramp up for a diacetyl rest. This part is totally optional, I like to rack to secondary before my diacetyl rest. I have done it both ways and I feel like that method makes a much cleaner lager. I usually let it clean up for a few days. Then I take it down to 32*F for lagering only dropping 2*F a day. Once at 32*F, I let it cold crash for a week. Then it's off to the keg for carb and lagering at the same time. I generally let it lager for 4-6 weeks. I have also seen the quick lagering method which does in fact work, but I still believe lagers were done the traditional way for a reason. Lagers are usually delicate and I don't have any desire to rush it to save time.

 

[SanPancho]

sorry, started answering someone else's question. to get back to OP question- its hard to say exactly what your mistake was without more detail- but you should have pitched from a yeast/hydrate that was at a temp equal or lower than the wort temp. raising the temp of the yeast (from the wort's heat) adds energy to them. helps them get going. then you should have waited to chill down to ferment temp until you'd seen some measure of activity- high krausen, small bits of clumping krausen, airlock bubbles, etc.

heat is a measure of molecular speed. lower temp equals lower molecular speed. its why lagers ferment slower than ales. two things to take away here-
1- because the lager ferments more slowly you have more time to make decisions- and more time to correct errors.
2- because they grow more slowly, dont underpitch. be patient, and wait until you get good signals of activity before you cool wort down to ferment temp. otherwise you'll wind up with 4-5 day lags in your ferment.

 

[BigFloyd]

Pitching a lager warm (in the 60's) and not cooling it until it shows signs of visible activity is a method developed to compensate for having too low of a pitch rate. There is a risk of off-flavors if you don't cool it in time. What if it kicks off shortly after you go to bed, has several hours of fermenting too warmly and even more hours as you try to cool it?

If your pitch rate is right, you'll have no problems getting a proper fermentation underway in cooler (upper 40's) wort. If doing a starter, you're typically going to crash it for a couple of days at fridge temps anyway. After you decant the starter wort off, the yeast is going to be at a temp very close to that of the wort.

 

[hunter_le five]

I cooled the wort down to about 70 (couldn't get it any colder), pitched the yeast and put it in the fermentation chamber, and let the chamber cool it to 50*.

I can't get my wort below the mid 70s°F with my immersion chiller. So what I do is go ahead and transfer to the fermenter, put in the fermentation chamber, and wait until the chamber has cooled the wort to my desired temp (low 50s°F). THEN I rehydrate, cool, and pitch the yeast.

In my experience, pitching lager yeast warm and then cooling is less than ideal. I know a lot of people use that method, but to me it seems like it leads to estery flavors that I don't want in my lager.

 

[autonomist3k]

Wow that's an amazing amount of help, thanks guys.

I believe the yeast and wort were the same temp when I pitched, and after I got it cooled to 50* I was seeing a decent amount of activity within 12 hours, I was pretty surprised.

I took a reading yesterday 10 days later, and my SG was 1.032, so it's 50% finished.
I warmed it to 54* the day before, so I imagine it'll be ready for diacetyl tomorrow or the next day.
From what I've read it can take up to 2 weeks, so I guess I'm on the right track.

It's nothing like an ale though, usually I can taste my ales part way through fermentation and it's not too bad, but lagers taste pretty bad before they're done I guess lol.

 

[SanPancho]

Pitching a lager warm (in the 60's) and not cooling it until it shows signs of visible activity is a method developed to compensate for having too low of a pitch rate. There is a risk of off-flavors if you don't cool it in time. What if it kicks off shortly after you go to bed, has several hours of fermenting too warmly and even more hours as you try to cool it?

If your pitch rate is right, you'll have no problems getting a proper fermentation underway in cooler (upper 40's) wort. If doing a starter, you're typically going to crash it for a couple of days at fridge temps anyway. After you decant the starter wort off, the yeast is going to be at a temp very close to that of the wort.

Sorry, but you're just wrong. We commercially produce very clean15bbl batches of lager in just under three weeks with this method. Come back to the science again- Heat is energy. All yeast go to sleep when cooled sufficiently(remove heat energy). All yeast are awakened when warmed sufficiently(heat energy added). When you add energy to yeast (by pitching into aa slightly warmer wort) you see increased rates of yeast activity, i.e. 4 hr lag phase instead of 12hr for example.

Yes, you are obviously correct that you need to maintain watch and not let ferment start to run off while you are away drinking/working/sleeping,etc. but assuming you have correctly scheduled things it shouldn't be a problem. . It's just a matter of good planning. No difference between lagers or ales there. Or wine or cider,etc.

You are also correct about avoiding under pitching. Which goes to my point of erring on side of over pitch when you're unsure.

But that doesn't mean a cool yeast/warm wort pitch is related, caused or necessitated by under pitch. It's just a technique in and of itself. Its a damn good one in our experience. Now, whether you have an under, over, or perfect pitch ready to go, the laws of thermodynamics still apply. Wort temp differential either slows or speeds things.

the final key is the yeast strain. Some are notorious for esters and sulfur, some produce almost none. Some produce them and then clean up quickly, others take forever to clean up. Some need D rest, some don't. I think picking right yeast strain is more crucial in lagers than ales, in general, for these reasons. Not unfortunately for folks who,don't do a ton of lager brewing, only experience can tell you which strain works best for you and your brewing technique, ferment program, style, and tastes. a few 1 gallon glass jugs with air locks are great ways to split a bigger brew up and turn it into an experiment with different yeast strains, ferment temps and aging times on the same base wort. If you're interested in that. if not just pick a strains ne stick with it until you get familiar.

 

[02fx4dude]

I find pitching at (or slightly below) ferment temperatures for lagers is simple and gets good results. Yes, lag time is slightly longer, by about 12 hrs for me. Pitch, set temperature, walk away for 5 days then warm up for d-rest.

Pitching warm then waiting for the right time to lower temperature seems to add more involvement, as well as making the correct call on when to drop temperature and how fast.