need help on a recipe (from American Sour Beers)

[dawn_kiebawls]

I'm getting ready to start on a couple recipes from American Sour Beers and I think I'm going to start with the Floral Honey Wheat. The recipe is as follows (moderators, I have zero intention of 'stealing' this recipe. If it is felt that I'm in violation please delete this post!):

48% German Pils
26% Wheat malt
4% 10L crystal malt
2% CaraPils
2% Honey malt
21% Orange-blossom Honey, added to primary after primary is finished
16 IBUs Amarillo (50 minutes)
.004oz/gal dried chamomile (0 minutes)
Wyeast 1056
Your choice of Brett and bacteria

Boil: 80 minutes
OG: 1.056
FG: 1.008
ABV: 6.3
IBU: 16

Mash at 156F


My questions are:

I recently just bought some ECY BugFarm, BugCountry and BugFarm2 and would like to primary with them. Is the WY1056 really necessary? My concern is that 16 IBUs is going to hinder (kill) the lacto and I'm hoping for more sour than funk.

Would It make sense to drop the IBUs to 2 or 3? I would also like to split this batch and dry hop a portion of it with Calypso or another highly tropical/floral variety.

I would also like to age some or all of this batch on some plums. At what point should I add them in? Should I ferment the entire time with the plums or add them with ~6 months left? I dont want to completely lose the honey aroma/flavor.


Thanks for all your help and insight! I'll likely jump into this feet first as soon as the bugs come in the mail and keep posting updates but I would really appreciate some insight before I mash in and get ready for the next year of staring at a carboy..cheers!

 

[brownni5]

Sacch is included in a couple of those blends, so you could potentially skip the additional yeast assuming the cultures are fresh.

If you want it really sour, skip the hops. If you're a homebrewer, there's really no reason to add only a couple IBU. I've heard good things about ECY cultures, but haven't tried them myself, so I don't know about their hop tolerance.

The Milk The Funk website suggests 2-3 lbs/gallon for plums, but anywhere from a couple weeks to 3 months in the fermenter. Wide range there - do what you think is best.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Bug farm and bug country both have pedio, which will sour slowly at the ibus listed, and still allow funk to develop. If you go with no hops, souring is very fast from lacto, but very little funk will develop. With low bitterness, it's a bit of a roll of the dice and will depend a lot on the strain of lactobacillus. One option is to do a batch with no hops, and a batch with hops, and blend to taste.

 

[brownni5]

Bug farm and bug country both have pedio, which will sour slowly at the ibus listed, and still allow funk to develop. If you go with no hops, souring is very fast from lacto, but very little funk will develop. With low bitterness, it's a bit of a roll of the dice and will depend a lot on the strain of lactobacillus. One option is to do a batch with no hops, and a batch with hops, and blend to taste.

While I don't doubt you're right, there are some strains of pedio that are hop sensitive and undesirable byproducts, such as diacetyl, may increase in the presence of hops. I haven't noticed it, perhaps because the Brett cleans it up, but it has been reported.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus
All that said, I always add hops to my mixed ferm beers, usually to try to temper the acid a bit, but then I always use dregs from commercial beers, too.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

Bug farm and bug country both have pedio, which will sour slowly at the ibus listed, and still allow funk to develop. If you go with no hops, souring is very fast from lacto, but very little funk will develop. With low bitterness, it's a bit of a roll of the dice and will depend a lot on the strain of lactobacillus. One option is to do a batch with no hops, and a batch with hops, and blend to taste.

Blending is an interesting thought. I kinda always thought that was too advanced for me but I will have several batches finishing roughly at the same time and I know how to siphon so..I think i'll give it a try!

While I don't doubt you're right, there are some strains of pedio that are hop sensitive and undesirable byproducts, such as diacetyl, may increase in the presence of hops. I haven't noticed it, perhaps because the Brett cleans it up, but it has been reported.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus
All that said, I always add hops to my mixed ferm beers, usually to try to temper the acid a bit, but then I always use dregs from commercial beers, too.

I'll do some reading from the link you provided once I get some extra time. I should have also mentioned I will also be pitching dregs randomly throughout the fermentation. I have access to a few sours from Boulevard, a limited selection of Jester King and the occasional Jolly Pumpkin find. Thanks for your help!

 

[brownni5]

In that case, you don't need to skip the hops at all. Jolly Pumpkin will sour anything, and I suspect Jester King would too.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's important to tailor the level of hops to the bacterial culture. The goal with this sort of semi-traditional method is to delay souring (using hops) until the Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces contribute flavor because acidity generally mutes flavor. If you don't add hops, there won't be much flavor. Brett metabolizes any off flavors from Pedio, so that's not a concern.

If you're just pitching a commercial mixed culture, I'd suggest around 0.3-0.5oz low AA hops per 5 gallons. If using dregs, I'd suggest between 0.75-1.5oz per 5 gal. Jolly Pumpkin in particular has very hop-tolerant bacteria, but the Brett does still produce significant flavor even at low pH -- very prominent barnyard. It takes time of course; expect it to sit for at least 6-12 months.

Cheers

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

It's important to tailor the level of hops to the bacterial culture. The goal with this sort of semi-traditional method is to delay souring (using hops) until the Saccharomyces and Brettanomyces contribute flavor because acidity generally mutes flavor. If you don't add hops, there won't be much flavor. Brett metabolizes any off flavors from Pedio, so that's not a concern.

If you're just pitching a commercial mixed culture, I'd suggest around 0.3-0.5oz low AA hops per 5 gallons. If using dregs, I'd suggest between 0.75-1.5oz per 5 gal. Jolly Pumpkin in particular has very hop-tolerant bacteria, but the Brett does still produce significant flavor even at low pH -- very prominent barnyard. It takes time of course; expect it to sit for at least 6-12 months.

Cheers

Thanks for the help! I'll probably stick to .75oz for 5 gallons since in my area it is never guaranteed I will be able to find Jolly Pumpkin, but I will have plenty of other dregs to pitch in and hope they are more hop tolerant than the commercial pitch.

I fully expected this to sit for a year so that isn't an issue. I'm not a very patient person (staring at airlocks, trying to watch flowers grow by the minute, etc) but I somehow have enough self control to keep my hands off and just let things do what they do. I just wanted to make sure i wasnt going to completely mute the sourness. Thanks again!