Need help dialing in IPA recipe!

[Bramstoker17]

Sorry for another one of these threads, but I'm trying to dial in my IPA recipe and I'm looking for suggestions. I've brewed several variations on this recipe, and all have been really good, just not perfect yet. About my setup: I do BIAB with normal mash volumes, but with a batch/dunk sparge. I use a combo of Lake Michigan and distilled water with minerals added. I'm going for a IPA with a citrus/dank hop profile with maybe a bit of pine. I realized I'm not a fan of overly floral notes in my IPA. I'm going for a bright orange color, and a crackery/ light biscuity malt background.

Here's the current recipe, I'm open to ideas. I haven't brewed this yet,
I'm doing a double dry hop, the first will be in for 4 days in bags, I'll take those out, then throw the rest in commando for 3 or 4 days then bottle. For the whirlpool, I'm dropping the temp to 180 then steeping for 20 min.

Batch size: 5.75 gal
OG: 1.065
FG: 1.011
IBU: 70
SRM: 5
ABV: 7.1


Fermentable
Golden Promise 7.0 lb 51%

2 Row 6.0 lb 44%

Carapil 0.25 lb 2%

Acidulated Malt 0.25 lb 2%

Caramel/Crystal 20L (US) 0.25 lb 2%

Hops Boil time: 60 min

Hop Amount Time
Apollo (US) 0.75 oz 60 min
Simcoe (US) 1.0 oz 15 min
Centennial (US) 1.0 oz 15 min

Columbus (US) 1.0 oz Whirlpool
Simcoe (US) 1.0 oz Whirlpool Centennial (US) 1.0 oz Whirlpool

Dry hop 1
Simcoe (US) 1.0 oz
Centennial (US) 0.5 oz
Columbus (US) 0.5 oz

Dry hop 2
Columbus (US) 0.5 oz
Centennial (US) 0.5 oz
Apollo (US) 0.25oz
Amarillo (US) 1.0 oz
Simcoe (US) 1.0 oz


I'm deciding between S05 and WLP 007 yeast

OK, so here's what I may do. I may also sub Zythos for Amarillo, as I heard the 2013 crop has some bad grassy notes. Any other ideas or recommendations? Thanks!


Note: Edited to reflect some suggestions in this thread.

 

[Bramstoker17]

The other thing I was wondering is if those two 15 minute additions would be better served somewhere else in the boil, or are they good where they are at? The last IPA I did had additions at 30 min, then a bunch at flame out, but I thought the flavor was just a bit lacking, hence the move to 15.

 

[JustLooking]

In my opinion 1% of anything in the grain bill will get lost and is a waste of time. (Except for the acid malt if you're using it as a pH adjustment and maybe carafa for color.)

The hop schedule makes me dizzy, but if you have the patience, go for it.

 

[Bramstoker17]

I've used Victory and crystal in small amounts before, and I thought the combo gave just a subtle crackery/biscuit sort of flavor. Who knows, maybe it was my imagination, but I liked the combo. Its also for color adjustment. That being said, with all those hops maybe it won't matter in the end, but I'm trying to have a pleasant malt backbone that compliments the hops.

 

[RonPopeil]

Citra in for cascade wouldn't be bad. Citra can be sickeningly sweet in large doses so be careful. you have a lot going on here so it may not be an issue. I've never used Zythos.

 

[Bramstoker17]

Citra in for cascade wouldn't be bad. Citra can be sickeningly sweet in large doses so be careful. you have a lot going on here so it may not be an issue. I've never used Zythos.

I enjoy Citra, but yea it can overpower for sure. I'm thinking a half ounce in the hopstand, then maybe a quarter in each dry hop. I've used Zythos once, but it was with other hops in an APA with Cascade, Centennial, Simcoe, and Columbus. It was good, but hard to tell what flavor the Zythos itself contributed.

 

[jmich24]

Invest in a Kegging setup.
Assuming you already have temperature controls, good sanitation and take care your yeast, kegging will make a dramatic difference in hop aroma/flavor. Kegging gives you the ability to purge out Oxygen(your enemy) with C02. I also find split my dryhop half in primary and half in the keg(bright tank) improves aroma.

While the initial invest is a lot. The time saved and improvement in hoppy beers are priceless.

Cheers!

 

[Bramstoker17]

Invest in a Kegging setup.
Assuming you already have temperature controls, good sanitation and take care your yeast, kegging will make a dramatic difference in hop aroma/flavor. Kegging gives you the ability to purge out Oxygen(your enemy) with C02. I also find split my dryhop half in primary and half in the keg(bright tank) improves aroma.

While the initial invest is a lot. The time saved and improvement in hoppy beers are priceless.

Cheers!

Trust me I'd love to get a keg system, It's not possible at the moment. The Mrs and I are in the process of buying a house, so new equipment funds are pretty slim right now. One day hopefully!

 

[stpug]

There's no such thing as a perfect IPA...... (unless you pulled it off my tap )

 

[stpug]

Seriously though, you would have to pull it off my tap (couldn't resist).

Your grainbill is pretty full for an IPA, but if it's where you want it then you're good. While the results would differ, I think you could get close to your same goal with a simplified grainbill consisting of only MO, Victory, and Carapils; mashed around 152F; fermented with a yeast strain that leaves some sweetness behind (007 maybe).

Your hop schedule looks excessively complex to me. You're using six varieties of hops I think. The "kitchen sink" approach works sometimes, but I don't think it's the best approach. I think you can take the hop varieties down to 3 (maybe 4) and get a more defined hop profile. "Citrus/dank with a bit of pine" profile seems like it could be achieved with apollo, simcoe, and centennial or amarillo; you could use a different bittering hop of you wanted but apollo or simcoe would fit the bill equally as well. I'd weigh heavy on centennial or amarillo, mid-light on simcoe, and light on apollo. I personally prefer centennial over amarillo, and you'll get a lot more citrus grapefruit with centennial and less tropics. I also like a late boil addition in my IPAs so keeping a 15, or 10, or 5 minute addition is good in my book. I like to steep/hopstand a lot longer - I've found a 45-60 minutes in the 175-170F range to my liking (I feel like there is a lot left over after the fermentation). I'm not a double dry hopper so I'd break it down to a single dryhop of 2-3 ounces total if I were brewing this.

HTH!

 

[Bramstoker17]

Seriously though, you would have to pull it off my tap (couldn't resist).

Your grainbill is pretty full for an IPA, but if it's where you want it then you're good. While the results would differ, I think you could get close to your same goal with a simplified grainbill consisting of only MO, Victory, and Carapils; mashed around 152F; fermented with a yeast strain that leaves some sweetness behind (007 maybe).

Your hop schedule looks excessively complex to me. You're using six varieties of hops I think. The "kitchen sink" approach works sometimes, but I don't think it's the best approach. I think you can take the hop varieties down to 3 (maybe 4) and get a more defined hop profile. "Citrus/dank with a bit of pine" profile seems like it could be achieved with apollo, simcoe, and centennial or amarillo; you could use a different bittering hop of you wanted but apollo or simcoe would fit the bill equally as well. I'd weigh heavy on centennial or amarillo, mid-light on simcoe, and light on apollo. I personally prefer centennial over amarillo, and you'll get a lot more citrus grapefruit with centennial and less tropics. I also like a late boil addition in my IPAs so keeping a 15, or 10, or 5 minute addition is good in my book. I like to steep/hopstand a lot longer - I've found a 45-60 minutes in the 175-170F range to my liking (I feel like there is a lot left over after the fermentation). I'm not a double dry hopper so I'd break it down to a single dryhop of 2-3 ounces total if I were brewing this.

HTH!

Thanks for the ideas! I am concerned with an overly complex hop bill, but love each of those hop varieties so its hard to cut them out. They each bring something to the table, but I don't want to overdo it. I am leaning on cutting the cascade to simplify things, since I'll get grapefruit from the centennial. I'll probably pass on putting the citra in there. I may try a longer hop steep. I'll start with a half hour I think.

I've found I get really good aroma with a double dry hop, and I've seen more professional breweries doing that. Its thankfully not too much of a hassle.

 

[Bramstoker17]

Ok, so I was doing some thinking about the malt bill. I agree with those of you that said it was overly complex. I'm trying to get some breadiness without it being sweet, hence the Victory/Munich combo. Now I'm thinking a split between two row and Golden promise might get me there without needing all the specialty malts. I'll then bump the crystal 20 up a bit to a quarter of a pound for color. Does this sound a bit more sensible and still get me a nice malt base?

I'll edit the original recipe in the op to reflect this change.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Victory is usually 25 love so that would give you a little more color than c20. Also it would contribute better to the malt character you want.

Golden promise is similar to MO and will really build a strong malt platform. I think it is a good choice given what you are looking for.

If you want dank and piney I would look to Chinook to bitter and simcoe for flavor. Maybe a some ctz early in too. Chinook will give it a nice dankness and a little pine and simcoe will fill in the pine.

I would pitch a big started of 007. It will dry it out and highlight the hops, which is what you really want!

 

[Bramstoker17]

Victory is usually 25 love so that would give you a little more color than c20. Also it would contribute better to the malt character you want.

Golden promise is similar to MO and will really build a strong malt platform. I think it is a good choice given what you are looking for.

If you want dank and piney I would look to Chinook to bitter and simcoe for flavor. Maybe a some ctz early in too. Chinook will give it a nice dankness and a little pine and simcoe will fill in the pine.

I would pitch a big started of 007. It will dry it out and highlight the hops, which is what you really want!

Interesting idea, I hadn't considered just subbing the Victory in for the crystal 20, but you're right, they are pretty close in color. Is that going to overdo the malt profile combined with the Golden Promise? I wan't some subtle bready notes, but the hops still need to be the star of the show. I'll have to think about this.

I thought about Chinook, but I've found it has a bit sharper bitterness then I want. I've been wanting to try Apollo hops for a while. They're supposed to be a great bittering hop, and have a somewhat dank/citrusy aroma and flavor.

Thanks for the ideas!

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Are you going east coast or west coast on this?

I'm not a huge crystal fan in IPA. I put about 3% in mine. About 5% carapils and the rest 2-row. I like Chinook so I go heavy on Chinook up front and then finish with simcoe.

I have a pound of summit I want to try though.

My local brewery uses zythos in their IPA along with summit and I think warrior. It is very very good.

 

[Bramstoker17]

I'm leaning west coast for sure. So if I add crystal it'll be a quarter pound tops, just 2% of the bill. I've got a bunch of zythos, I like it. I was considering subbing it for the Amarillo just because I have it on hand.

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[sandyeggoxj]

You should do it! I'm not a big Amarillo or citra fan though. They are overplayed.

 

[stpug]

I'm going for a IPA with a citrus/dank hop profile with maybe a bit of pine. I realized I'm not a fan of overly floral notes in my IPA. I'm going for a bright orange color, and a crackery/ light biscuity malt background.

Here's an idea that attempts to meet your desires mentioned above:

Recipe: Example West Coast Style IPA
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.75 gal   
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 7.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 65.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          %/IBU         
12.00 g               Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins Water Agent   -             
12 lbs                Pale Malt, Golden Promise                              90.6 %        
12.0 oz               Victory Malt (28.0 SRM)                  Grain         5.7 %         
8.0 oz                Carapils (1.5 SRM)                       Grain         3.8 %         
0.750 oz              Apollo [17.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min   Hop           42.0 IBUs     
1.000 oz              Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min     Hop           10.9 IBUs     
1.000 oz              Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           7.8 IBUs      
1.500 oz              Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool   Hop           2.1 IBUs      
0.750 oz              Apollo [17.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  45.0 Hop           1.8 IBUs      
0.750 oz              Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  45.0 Hop           1.3 IBUs      
1.0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)  Yeast         -             
1.000 oz              Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days  Hop           0.0 IBUs      
0.750 oz              Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           0.0 IBUs      
0.500 oz              Apollo [17.00 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days      Hop           0.0 IBUs      

Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 4.0 oz
----------------------------
Name               Description                          Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In            Add 16.70 qt of water at 164.0 F     150.0 F       75 min        

Sparge: Batch sparge with 175.0 F water to reach preboil volume

The grainbill should produce a nice light orange beer according to SRM. Golden promise has an orange hue to it from what I've experienced, and the victory will add to the depth of color. Golden promise should give a mild-moderate malt background with some sweetness and victory will give a very crackery-toast aspect without being too dry. The carapils is added to enhance the body and foam stability, while helping to promote a light sweetness to the crystal-less grist.

The hop schedule is aimed to get a lot of citrus-grapefruit with some piney dankness, but you will get some floral from the centennial as well. Apollo can be a big heavy hitter late in the process, coupled with Simcoe can lead to excessive resiny forest character which is why I would choose to keep them reserved. The dry hop is simply meant to enhance the hop characters already imparted during the boil/steep, and give the "nose" that might come up short otherwise.

Granted, it's pretty hard to foul up an IPA as long as you're putting in sufficient late hops, dryhopping after fermentation, and not overdoing your crystal addition then you're likely to get a good IPA. If you seek "perfection" then the only way to get there is to based your next batch off of your previous batch and make small adjustments until "perfection" has been obtained

 

[Bramstoker17]

Stpug, that's a great looking recipe! I might drop the crystal altogether then and use Victory to get some color. That's a nice looking hop schedule too, I might just add some Zythos in there to add a bit more stone fruit taste.


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[stpug]

I've never used Zythos but I have read a couple experiences people have had using Zythos and getting some garlic/onion from it. Basically you end up with a "savory" IPA . That would be my only caution on using it. The good part is that you can almost always pick up on the garlic/onion just from smelling the pellets.

Honestly, I did up that example and it makes me want to brew it . I've got the grain, hops, and harvested yeast on hand so it should be easy to put together. (Un)Fortunately, I've already got a rye ipa set for brewing in a week but this might have to be my follow-up after that! I DO love me some Centennial!!

 

[Bramstoker17]

I've used zythos with Simcoe, Centennial, and Columbus in an APA. I couldn't pick up its specific flavor, but it played well with those hops. I've got a SMaSH beer going with it, it should be ready by the time I brew this so I'll have a better idea if I like it. Otherwise I might toss a bit of Amarillo in there

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