Need feedback on Belgian dubbel recipe

[Jayjay1976]

I've been playing with the recipe calculator at brewer's friend and would appreciate some feedback.
I'm hoping for something substantial with lots of belgiany esters, and malty with some dried fruit character. Am I trying to do too much with one recipe? My first belgian was a saison that came out good, but a bit too dry and bitter. Hoping this one will be a bit fuller in flavor with some residual sugars for a sweeter finish. I'm not into roast flavors and this is intended to be a reddish amber.

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Belgian Dubbel
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.063
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.073
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 7.11%
IBU (tinseth): 16.2
SRM (morey): 16.36

FERMENTABLES:
11.25 lb - German - Pilsner (74.5%)
0.75 lb - Belgian - Aromatic (5%)
1 lb - German - Melanoidin (6.6%)
0.3 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (2%)
0.3 lb - Belgian - Special B (2%)
1.5 lb - Belgian Candi Sugar - Amber/Brown (60L) (9.9%) @15

HOPS:
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 2.8, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 14.41
0.5 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 2.8, Use: Aroma for 15 min, IBU: 1.79

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 157 F, Time: 60 min

YEAST:
Wyeast - Belgian Ardennes 3522
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 74%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 85 F
Fermentation Temp: 75 F

Planning to ferment at 75-80 F for 14 days, then crash to 39 F for 3 days then bottle.
The melanoidin and aromatic are to add mouthfeel, maltiness and aid head retention. The color is a bit dark for the style, but I'm hoping for some raisiny notes from the special B.

 

[thehaze]

Candi Syrup Inc. have some very good Belgian recipes you can draw inspiration from: http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

For a Dubbel, I think you need a pretty simple recipe: Pilsner and Special B and some Candi Syrup: D-180 or a combo between D-45 and D-90. Maybe add a touch of Chocolate malt, if that is your thing, but the Special B and candi syrups will take care of the colour.

Mash temp. should be around 153-154, as you do not want it to be as heavy as a Belgian Dark Strong, but still be drinkable. For me, a good Dubbel ( Westmalle, Achel, etc. ) is something you can drink many of without becoming too much. But you can definitely mash high and use a bit of sugar to dry it out.

I would recommend using syrups and not simple sugars, as they will improve the aroma and taste of the beer.

Regarding the yeast: it says it produces bright beers, which is always a good thing. But maybe other strains would be better - here I am thinking of the esters and phenols levels, which are pretty high in a dubbel.

 

[dmtaylor]

Melanoidin and Aromatic malts are both powerful stuff. I would cut both of those in half.

Meanwhile, if you want dark dried fruit flavors, you will love the character of the Special B, and I think you should double that.

I'd start the fermentation cooler, about 66 F, and keep it there for the first 4 or 5 days. If you want to let it rise to 75-80 F after that it should turn out good.

I'm also skeptical of your assumed 75% efficiency. For a big beer like this, you might want to consider whether your efficiency will be a little smaller around 70%, such that you should use maybe an extra pound of base malt to get the gravity up where you expect.

I agree with @thehaze that in theory, mash temp should probably be down closer to like 153-154 F for improved fermentability, but also not certain if it matters so much in real life, especially with all the candi sugar in there.

My opinions. Consider which points make the most sense and roll with it. You cannot make a bad beer with that recipe though, it should turn out great any way you take it.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Okay I made some adjustments and changed my efficiency to 70%, the 75% eff. was calculated using the averaged results from my last 4 batches starting with my heaviest to date, a saison that turned out at 78%. I BIAB with full volume, recirc throughout the mash stirring regularly, then squeeze the crap out of the bag. I also did step mashes on all of those, and I suspect the lower start at 135 produced lots of fermentable leaving little for mouthfeel. Going forward I'm going to do single temp mashes for 60 minutes and just need that magic number as my go-to.

I'll program my ferm chamber to hold at 66 for 4 days then ramp up to 80, is that later part of fermentation when esters are produced? How long should I hold it at 80 and should there be a colder period after that before bottling?

Also, does my hop choice/schedule look okay? I wanted to stick with noble hops but I also have some 5.9% Opal in pellet form.


Here is the tweaked recipe:

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Belgian Dubbel
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.064
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.075
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 7.55%
IBU (tinseth): 16
SRM (morey): 17.23

FERMENTABLES:
13 lb - German - Pilsner (79.3%)
1.5 lb - Belgian Candi Sugar - Amber/Brown (60L) (9.1%)
0.5 lb - German - Melanoidin (3%)
0.5 lb - Belgian - Aromatic (3%)
0.6 lb - Belgian - Special B (3.7%)
0.3 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (1.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 2.8, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 14.23
0.5 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 2.8, Use: Aroma for 15 min, IBU: 1.77

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 154 F, Time: 60 min

YEAST:
Wyeast - Belgian Ardennes 3522
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 74%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 85 F
Fermentation Temp: 66 F

 

[secondbase]

If you're aiming for a FG of 1.017 I would recommend trying to get your IBU to at least 25 to achieve a nice balance. 16ibu would be okay if your beer ended at 1.010 or lower. Hop varieties and timing looks fine.


I used Ardennes in a dubbel and it was my least favorite strain I've tried for the style. It looks like you have access to Wyeast, so I would recommend 3787 or 1214 as these yeasts have produced beautiful dubbels for me before.

 

[dmtaylor]

Ooh, I think the Opal hops will probably be nice in this beer.

I'm not exactly sure where the esters will be more prominent, cool vs. warm. You might need to experiment over a couple of batches to learn more about how this yeast strain behaves. In any case, in general, I do still think it is best to pitch cool and only raise temperature after 3 or 4 days of activity. This will give you the best of all worlds, phenols and esters, and prevent the beer from tasting too "hot" with higher alcohols.

Hope you enjoy.

P.S. I kind of agree with @secondbase 's recommendation too. Just a tad higher IBU level might help keep things in better balance. I confirm also that 3787 is a good yeast. I have never used 3522.

 

[ericbw]

I use base plus D-90 or D-45, a little special B and/or crystal.

I have found stronger esters with higher ferm temps. But you have to watch that it's not too boozy, like others said.

I tend to think simpler is better on the grains and sugars.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Thanks for the feedback!
I've made some adjustments to the hops, swapping out the late addition Hersbrucker in favor of Opal, and adding a bit of Opal to the first addition to bump the IBUs to 24.5. I landed there trying to keep the total usage to even ounce increments since all my hops are vac packed in 1oz. portions.

About the Ardennes yeast, I had originally purchased 1762 but changed my mind since that was a cleaner strain for Belgian dark ales. A quick browse on the wyeast website suggested Ardennes was a good choice for a dubbel. Further searching suggested it for cloning some of my favorite strong ales, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Delirium Tremens, La Fin du Monde, Chimay Blanche. We'll see what happens I guess, not too many devotees of 3522 on HBT.

On a side note, if making a starter from the smack pack would improve the outcome I do have a flask and stirplate on hand. My first thought was that underpitching just the smack pack would boost esters. Thoughts?

Edited recipe:
Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Belgian Dubbel
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.064
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.075
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 7.55%
IBU (tinseth): 24.49
SRM (morey): 17.23

FERMENTABLES:
13 lb - German - Pilsner (79.3%)
1.5 lb - Belgian Candi Sugar - Amber/Brown (60L) (9.1%)
0.5 lb - German - Melanoidin (3%)
0.5 lb - Belgian - Aromatic (3%)
0.6 lb - Belgian - Special B (3.7%)
0.3 lb - German - Acidulated Malt (1.8%)

HOPS:
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 2.8, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 14.23
0.25 oz - Opal, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.9, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 4.12
0.75 oz - Opal, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.9, Use: Aroma for 15 min, IBU: 6.14

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 154 F, Time: 60 min

YEAST:
Wyeast - Belgian Ardennes 3522
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 74%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 85 F
Fermentation Temp: 66 F

 

[dmtaylor]

I am an avid advocate of underpitching Belgians, but I do think you should make a small starter in this instance 1.5 liters would probably suffice.

 

[secondbase]

About the Ardennes yeast, I had originally purchased 1762 but changed my mind since that was a cleaner strain for Belgian dark ales. A quick browse on the wyeast website suggested Ardennes was a good choice for a dubbel. Further searching suggested it for cloning some of my favorite strong ales, so I thought I'd give it a shot. Delirium Tremens, La Fin du Monde, Chimay Blanche. We'll see what happens I guess, not too many devotees of 3522 on HBT.

I think 3522 is beautiful in a blonde or pale ale. I just didn't care for it in a dubbel. I hope you find different results.

 

[Pintabone]

I just brewed a Dubbel on Sunday mashing at 150. OG of 1.072 with 14 oz of D-90 using 3787 it finished at 1.010 within 5 days.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Okay! I bought 3787 today, sorry to shift gears but I bottled two batches today and I have empty fermentor fever, so I'm going to brew this recipe as is with 3787 tomorrow, then work up a belgian blonde recipe to brew with the Ardennes yeast on wednesday. I'm totally enamored with belgian ales and complete geeked to have two Belgians fermenting in parallel.

So today I bottled an exquisite velvety kölsch and a curiously peppery amber hefeweizen. The kölsch was so delicious from the gravity sample that I banked two 4oz. jars of slurry for an upcoming rebrew. 110 bottles total.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Started a separate thread on a Tripel to ferment with the 3522, I would really appreciate guidance from you all on the recipe. Thanks for all the comments so far!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/need-feedback-on-belgian-tripel-recipe.642253/

 

[JKaranka]

Not a fan of special B in trappist styles. It's too heavy. The sugars and a touch of aromatic should do.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Not a fan of special B in trappist styles. It's too heavy. The sugars and a touch of aromatic should do.

I added it in the quest for raisiny, dried fruit character. Will the aromatic lend any of that?

 

[dmtaylor]

I added it in the quest for raisiny, dried fruit character. Will the aromatic lend any of that?

Aromatic has sort of a cherry flavor. Not raisin.

 

[jtp137]

Keep it simple. 15% D-90 and the rest good quality Belgian pilsner malt with wlp530 and mash low

 

[Jayjay1976]

Grain is crushed, hops are weighed and sorted, heating strike water now!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Mashed in 8 gallons for 60 minutes @153, mashed out for 10 minutes @170, dunk sparged in 1 gallon cool water for 10 minutes then squeezed bag well. Then I brought it up to a boil and added the candi sugar, yielding 8.5 gallons @ 1.056 pre-boil. I need to end up with 6.5 gallons so need to boil for 90-120 minutes.

Is it better to boil down to my target volume? Or stop boiling at target gravity 1.070 and save what's left for kraeusening instead of priming sugar? I need to figure this out before adding my 60 minute hops. This batch is a handful!

Edit: approaching 60 minutes of boiling and volume is at 7.6 gallons. I'm going to add the 60 minute hops now and start the timer.

 

[redllama]

Planning to ferment at 75-80 F for 14 days, then crash to 39 F for 3 days then bottle.

I would be careful fermenting this high initially as it can lead to some "bubblegum" flavors. You are better off to start off at 68-70 for the first couple days and then ramp up to the higher temperatures after about day 5

 

[Jayjay1976]

I would be careful fermenting this high initially as it can lead to some "bubblegum" flavors. You are better off to start off at 68-70 for the first couple days and then ramp up to the higher temperatures after about day 5

Sorry, I updated the recipe from the original post, I'll be fermenting at 66 for four days then ramping up to 75 over the following days to finish it out. This will be the first time I've used the programmable profile feature on my ferm chamber with an actual batch of beer, can't wait to see how it turns out!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Finished up at 1.072 with my target volume of 6.5G. Chilling it down as far as my tap water will take it (60) to hopefully leave some break material in the kettle, check out my DIY counterflow chiller in action!

 

[Jayjay1976]

It's been fermenting for a week now, I'm still working out the kinks in my temp controlled ferm chamber and even though it was set to 66 the temperature oscillated from 62 to 65 for the first 5 days, so I corrected the probe calibration and reduced the differential from 3 degrees to 1 and set it to 72.

Due to the arctic weather the garage is at only 35 and the 18W seedling mat wasn't enough to maintain temps so I put a second identical heat mat in the chamber and plugged it directly into the outlet. I hope this will raise the ambient chamber temp allowing the thermostat to kick on and off to hold more steadily.

Despite the lower than intended temps it blew off quite a bit of krausen and has been bubbling every few seconds the entire time. Once it slows to once a minute I'll bring it indoors for a week to settle and finish out, then crash it in the garage for a couple days before bottling. I need to reset the chamber for a batch I'm brewing today!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Bubbling stopped abruptly on 12/28 so the next morning I brought the temp up to 76 over a couple of days to finish out. The gravity sample today was at 1.014, just below the predicted 1.015 for a final ABV of 7.6%. Sample tasted great, a little sweet and the alcohol was noticeable but smooth, so I think I'm going to let it condition for another week and then bottle.

 

[jtp137]

Looks light for a dubbel?

 

[thehaze]

It looks light, but SRM should be around 17, according to the recipe.

But Dubbels can be lighter in colour. ( official style places them between 10 and 17 SRM )

 

[Jayjay1976]

Looks light for a dubbel?

Yeah I was aiming for the lighter end of the range, next time I'll go to the other end of the spectrum with some dark munich. It's only my 6th batch ever and I'm still trying to find out what I like.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've had this fermenting another week now in the high 70's, and for the last couple of days at 82, but it's still producing a bubble every 30 seconds or so. I'm going to take a sample today to find out where it's at but I'm afraid to bottle it if it's not finished.

 

[thehaze]

Just give it as much time as it needs, but taking gravity samples days apart from each other is the best way to be sure if and when ready to bottle/keg.

 

[Jayjay1976]

It's at 1.012 now, the sample tasted pretty good and it should be at 8.3% ABV. I'm thinking of adding a half pound of homemade 290° Belgian candi syrup to restart fermentation, darken it a bit, add a few points of alcohol and maybe a touch more fruity esters. It's fermenting at 84 right now, if I add the dark syrup should I bring that down to prevent fusels? Is it a bad idea to add fermentables 17 days into fermentation?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Okay I just took a gamble and added a pound of the dark syrup. I'll lower the temp to 80 unless anyone thinks I should do otherwise. Do I need to put a blowoff tube on it again? It has a 3-piece airlock on it right now. I'm going now to my LHBS with samples of three batches for them to taste and critique; two hefeweizens and a kölsch.

 

[ericbw]

I probably wouldn’t add sugar at that point, esp if it’s done. It’s ok though!

 

[Jayjay1976]

I probably wouldn’t add sugar at that point, esp if it’s done. It’s ok though!

It wasn't done yet, even thought it was approaching FG it was still bubbling slowly. Once I added the Belgian syrup, within no more than 15 minutes it was bubbling nonstop and it's just now starting to slow again. Once bubbling stops I'll give it another week of conditioning before I bottle. The color darkened a bit but not as much as I anticipated; is it possible some of the syrup is sitting on the bottom unfermented? I assumed the hungry yeast would chew through it and the bubbling would thoroughly mix in the dark color. I also wanted to save some yeast but I worry the high alcohol will have stressed it too much.

 

[redllama]

I personally have never been able to extract as much color from belgian candi syrup, whether it was store bought or homemade. I wonder if there is some secret those monks aren't telling us

 

[jtp137]

D-90 or D-180 provides plenty of color

 

[Jayjay1976]

was I supposed to stir the wort as I added the Belgian syrup to keep it from lumping up on the bottom of the fermenter? I assumed the action of the yeast create enough agitation to mix it. I guess it will get a stir anyway at bottling time to distribute the priming sugar.

 

[jtp137]

Did fermentation kick back off? Not sure if it will this late in the game

 

[Jayjay1976]

Did fermentation kick back off? Not sure if it will this late in the game

Yeah it sure did, bubbling had slowed to twice a minute. But once I added the candi syrup, within 15 minutes it was bubbling nonstop again and the next day had raised 1/4" of krausen.

 

[ericbw]

was I supposed to stir the wort as I added the Belgian syrup to keep it from lumping up on the bottom of the fermenter? I assumed the action of the yeast create enough agitation to mix it. I guess it will get a stir anyway at bottling time to distribute the priming sugar.

You don't want to introduce oxygen at this point in the process, so don't stir. You'd also stir up a cloud of sediment from the bottom, making it take longer to clear. It's obvious that waiting is not your strong suit, so you don't want to do that Leave it alone.

When you bottle - make a solution of the priming sugar and a little water, boil it (microwave) and let it cool. Put it in the bottling bucket. Then add your beer to the bucket with a hose that reaches the bottom of the bucket. Avoid splashing. This will swirl the sugar and beer together. Don't stir. Oxygen in beer is bad. Don't stir.

I'd still save the yeast. I save my Belgian yeast no matter the beer I make with it.

 

[Jayjay1976]

You don't want to introduce oxygen at this point in the process, so don't stir. You'd also stir up a cloud of sediment from the bottom, making it take longer to clear. It's obvious that waiting is not your strong suit, so you don't want to do that Leave it alone.

When you bottle - make a solution of the priming sugar and a little water, boil it (microwave) and let it cool. Put it in the bottling bucket. Then add your beer to the bucket with a hose that reaches the bottom of the bucket. Avoid splashing. This will swirl the sugar and beer together. Don't stir. Oxygen in beer is bad. Don't stir.

I'd still save the yeast. I save my Belgian yeast no matter the beer I make with it.

Thanks!