Need a substitute for London Ale III aka Boddinton's yeast

[duncan_disorderly]

I am not sure what happened. Sickly sweet tasting. I keg carbonated 3 gallons with about 1/5th cup white cane sugar. It carbonated but it's not drinkable.

I'll put it back at 70F or so just in case fermentation stopped for some reason before fermenting out but not very hopeful.

Ah, shame. Boddies was very dry of course, and bitter. But didn't it finish at 1004? Wouldn't explain sweetness.

I'm currently drinking a version of the 1980 recipe from Ron's blog, but I used some carawheat as well as pale malt and some DME. Bram X and Goldings. Split batch, M44 and S-33 in half, M44 and Verdant in the other. It's come out very well this one.

What is this high performance yeast of which you speak? Why mash high? Sweeter, no?

 

[kmarkstevens]

My first try finished at 1004. This was my second try so I mashed a bit higher but didn't actually record the FG. My bad. I'm hoping that bringing up the temperature to 70F or so will restart fermentation and eat up any of the sugar causing the sweetness. Since I have about 10# of DME in stock, and should start priming the keg with that instead of white sugar.

I mash high for mouth feel as I typically do 1040 OG or lower brews.

There is a new Nottingham High Performance yeast. I assume this is a Notty mutation that ferments a few points higher than the "regular" Nottybut otherwise has the same profile.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

My first try finished at 1004. This was my second try so I mashed a bit higher but didn't actually record the FG. My bad. I'm hoping that bringing up the temperature to 70F or so will restart fermentation and eat up any of the sugar causing the sweetness. Since I have about 10# of DME in stock, and should start priming the keg with that instead of white sugar.

I mash high for mouth feel as I typically do 1040 OG or lower brews.

There is a new Nottingham High Performance yeast. I assume this is a Notty mutation that ferments a few points higher than the "regular" Nottybut otherwise has the same profile.

Ok thanks. Bodds, of course, defies the rules a bit by having high attenuation with a low OG.

Are we sure the high performance Nottingham is different? I assumed it was just a branding thing, and the yeast hasn't changed?

 

[user 246304]

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I'd use either Notty or 1469.

Resurrecting as I'm doing a Lee's 1952 Mild per Ron Pattinson, he calls for 1318, and I'm looking for a Lallemand sub as I'd like to try working with direct pitching dry yeasts (my only other experience, other than when I first began in the 90's, was to finish out a Festbier a few months ago).

Curious on the use of either Notty or 1469, @Northern_Brewer. I've always loved 1469, though I've been using Cullercoats almost exclusively now for quite awhile. I wouldn't have thought Notty and 1469 would be in a similar sub class. Isn't Notty being known for a very clean, neutral and forgiving fermentation profile, with 1469 sort of a classic "Yorkshire" profile, with malt, stone-fruit esters and so forth? If 1469 works well, I'd suspect Cullercoats is also a great choice - concur?

 

[dmtaylor]

Resurrecting as I'm doing a Lee's 1952 Mild per Ron Pattinson, he calls for 1318, and I'm looking for a Lallemand sub as I'd like to try working with direct pitching dry yeasts (my only other experience, other than when I first began in the 90's, was to finish out a Festbier a few months ago).

Curious on the use of either Notty or 1469, @Northern_Brewer. I've always loved 1469, though I've been using Cullercoats almost exclusively now for quite awhile. I wouldn't have thought Notty and 1469 would be in a similar sub class. Isn't Notty being known for a very clean, neutral and forgiving fermentation profile, with 1469 sort of a classic "Yorkshire" profile, with malt, stone-fruit esters and so forth? If 1469 works well, I'd suspect Cullercoats is also a great choice - concur?

Verdant is not exactly the same at 1318... but it's very close. I can confirm, Verdant definitely makes great beer.

A lot of folks swear by 1469. I myself have not used it... not YET.

Notty is something else entirely. It's fairly clean, not a whole lot different from S-04 or US-05, etc, but perhaps slightly more characterful than either one.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wouldn't have thought Notty and 1469 would be in a similar sub class.

Since you don't have the original yeast, anything you do will be an approximation. Without that original 1952 multistrain (and the 1952 fermenter geometry, 1952 malting practices etc), you will never make a perfect clone of one of these historical beers. So there are no "right" or "100%" answers, only various 80% approximations to it, and that means making choices.

With Notty, you're emphasising attenuation over flavour, 1469 vice versa, with Cullercoats you're choosing a different balance of tradeoffs.

So forget the idea of creating a clone and embrace the spirit of British brewing which means not sweating over yeast because you have a house yeast and use it for everything regardless.

 

[Witherby]

Verdant is not exactly the same at 1318... but it's very close. I can confirm, Verdant definitely makes great beer.

A lot of folks swear by 1469. I myself have not used it... not YET.

Notty is something else entirely. It's fairly clean, not a whole lot different from S-04 or US-05, etc, but perhaps slightly more characterful than either one.

I’m currently drinking a best bitter fermented with Verdant and I’m quite happy with it. I love 1469 but have to drive 1.5 hours to get some, so I am using mostly dry yeasts these days. And 1469 takes forever to drop, which definitely adds to the turnaround time.

 

[user 246304]

Since you don't have the original yeast, anything you do will be an approximation. Without that original 1952 multistrain (and the 1952 fermenter geometry, 1952 malting practices etc), you will never make a perfect clone of one of these historical beers. So there are no "right" or "100%" answers, only various 80% approximations to it, and that means making choices.

With Notty, you're emphasising attenuation over flavour, 1469 vice versa, with Cullercoats you're choosing a different balance of tradeoffs.

So forget the idea of creating a clone and embrace the spirit of British brewing which means not sweating over yeast because you have a house yeast and use it for everything regardless.

Thanks. I do get that, mostly having learned from you and other British brewers. Just a question, I guess, on broad tendencies more than anything else. "Ceteris paribus," I wondered about these two being paired in a neighborhood of each other. But I think I get it. I love your second paragraph in particular. I will say my heavy bent is to 1469 and its associated characteristics. In fact, much as it displeases me, I am not settled yet on whether I prefer Brewlabs's CC or the rather more "industrial" 1469.

 

[kmarkstevens]

West Yorkie (1469) is a good yeast, and in my top 5 rotation. Notty is my "if you could only have one yeast forever" yeast.

 

[UdonPete]

Verdant is not exactly the same at 1318... but it's very close. I can confirm, Verdant definitely makes great beer.

A lot of folks swear by 1469. I myself have not used it... not YET.

Notty is something else entirely. It's fairly clean, not a whole lot different from S-04 or US-05, etc, but perhaps slightly more characterful than either one.

Agree, Verdant IPA is the closest (only!) dry yeast sub for Boddington 3

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Agree, Verdant IPA is the closest (only!) dry yeast sub for Boddington 3

You mean London Ale III - and the whole point of this thread is that London Ale III appears to have nothing to do with the classic Boddington's "Tadcaster" yeast that was capable of 90+% attenuation.

AEB Fermoale New-E (aka Geterbrewed Juicy) claims to have the same origin as London Ale III and as such may be a closer dry match to LA3 than Verdant, which came from repeatedly repitching an LA3-like yeast and has evolved from it.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Obviously have not updated this for a while. WLP038 Manchester Ale yeast and Tony's Pre-1970 Boddington's clone recipe is pretty dang good!

Northern Brewer and I compared the canned versions of UK and US Boddy's 2-3 years ago in the nitro cans. US version has a bit higher FG, so a little different taste. Both are good. And Tony's recipe + Manchester Ale hit's the spot for me.

 

[Peebee]

Ooo ... a London III / Boddington's thread ... one of my "favourites"! But the thread has been awakened with a sidestep to Lee's.

When living in Manchester I will have drunk plenty of Lee's, but virtually no Boddington's. I past the Boddington's brewery every day going to work. There's no brewery there now! (I was there 30-40 years ago). I believe (from reading Ron's scribblings?) the link with "London III" came about after the brewery closed, and its "beer" (I'm damned if I'd call it that!) was brewed by a London brewery for a while. As @Northern_Brewer pointed out, before then Boddington's was "brewed" in Manchester with a Tadcaster yeast (from John Smith's no doubt ... another purveyor of naff "beer", not to be confused with Sam Smiths of Tadcaster ... Oh aye, I lived near Tadcaster - Bramham cross-roads - for a while too!). Boddington's had lost their yeast after a bomb hit during WWII. It was the second time they'd lost the yeast that century! I've recently heard rumours that the Tadcaster yeast was a "diastaticus" variant, hence the 90%+ attenuation (@Northern_Brewer can put me right if I have that wrong ... though he might not be talking to me 'cos he's suggested Boddington's beer was good ... and I think it was horse-p***).

Anyway! ...

This thread is now discussing Lee's beer. A completely different kettle-of-fish, even though it was made in the same Manchester area. With this I think you would get away with 1469, or any moderately low attenuating yeast. And I believe that solely on the fact that (my clear memory of drinking Lee's has long since vanished) ... I would drink it, and I enjoyed it!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Boddingtons was good before it got dumbed down and before the yeast was replaced by a Whitbread yeast. Whitbread bought the brewery in 1989 iirc. 35 years ago. I have lived in Manchester since nice 1989! But I grew up with Boddies pubs in my home town in Lancashire. If you think it was piss, you missed the good times.

 

[kmarkstevens]

BTW, someone on these boards sent me the Manchester yeast when cleaning out their collection. Embarrassed to admit I don't remember his name now, but still a shout out.