Need 240V PID wiring diagram

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Adrian Gresores

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I am building a simple eBIAB system. Does anybody have a wiring diagram for a 240V control panel that includes a PID, 40A SSR, 5500W element, 240V pump, and receptacles for the element and pump? I would also like to have a switch and LED for both the element and pump. This will all be plugged into a dedicated 30 amp L6-30R wall receptacle, connected to a 240V 30A GFCI breaker. I would greatly appreciate any advice.
 

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doug293cz

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That design does not meet OP's requirements, as it requires 4-wire power input, and uses a 120V pump.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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I actually haven't bought the pump yet. And, I believe I do have a neutral wire between that breaker and the outlet. So, it should just mean attaching the neutral to the breaker and switching out to a 4-wire outlet. Doug, we've already been chatting in another post, so I think everything is covered.
 

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I actually haven't bought the pump yet. And, I believe I do have a neutral wire between that breaker and the outlet. So, it should just mean attaching the neutral to the breaker and switching out to a 4-wire outlet. Doug, we've already been chatting in another post, so I think everything is covered.
Ok. It would be trivial (for me) to convert either of the designs in this post to 3-wire, 240V only, designs.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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Well, as long as you're offering, I wouldn't mind seeing the 3-wire, 240V only, design with the "Safe Start" interlocks.
 

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Ok, here's the 240V with neutral schematic:

DSPR300 1-Pump 1-Element 240V rev-2.PNG


And, here's the 240V without neutral schematic:

DSPR300 1-Pump 1-Element 240V only.PNG


I didn't look into the proper plug/receptacle combo for 240V 10A application. Also, more fuses are required as either of the hot lines can source current in the event of a short, whereas a neutral cannot source any current, so does not need to be fused.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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It looks like the pump switch in the schematic without neutral has 3 blocks, 2 NO and 1 NC. Which part number is that? SW11, 15, and 16 look like only 2 blocks each to me. Or, do you just splice the connections for the NO "blocks" onto the one actual NO block?

Adrian
 

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Have you seen the BrewCommander? I was going to build a similar controller for 5500W single vessel brewing but ditched it when I saw this come out. I haven't purchased yet, but it seems to have good reviews.

 
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Adrian Gresores

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That does look like a well-engineered piece of hardware, and not a bad price. I'm going to have to think some more about this. Thanks.
 
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Adrian Gresores

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Ok. It would be trivial (for me) to convert either of the designs in this post to 3-wire, 240V only, designs.

Brew on :mug:
I know it's been a while, but would you mind showing me a 3-wire, 240V only design for the non-Safe-Start design above? Thank you, Adrian.
 

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Beautiful diagrams!
On the 3 wire diagram it looks like you have both red and black (hots) connected to the 120v pump through a switch. Wouldn't 120+120 give you 240? I'm not an electrician and am wiring my first PID so any help is appreciated.
 

doug293cz

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Beautiful diagrams!
On the 3 wire diagram it looks like you have both red and black (hots) connected to the 120v pump through a switch. Wouldn't 120+120 give you 240? I'm not an electrician and am wiring my first PID so any help is appreciated.
Yes. This is for a 240V pump motor.

Brew on :mug:
 

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Yes. This is for a 240V pump motor.

Brew on :mug:
Well, that makes more sense then. :)
Do you have a diagram for the same setup that powers a 120v outlet (or is it possible)? My dryer outlet has a 10-30 connection on it, and I don't know if the third prong is ground or neutral or both. I'll have to take a look.
 

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Well, that makes more sense then. :)
Do you have a diagram for the same setup that powers a 120v outlet (or is it possible)? My dryer outlet has a 10-30 connection on it, and I don't know if the third prong is ground or neutral or both. I'll have to take a look.
120V pump version is the first drawing in this post. Note that it requires a 4-wire power input, so a 10-30 outlet will not work. 4-wires are needed to get both 120V and 240V from the same outlet.

Brew on :mug:
 

WNKbrew

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Ok, here's the 240V with neutral schematic:

View attachment 679523

And, here's the 240V without neutral schematic:

View attachment 679524

I didn't look into the proper plug/receptacle combo for 240V 10A application. Also, more fuses are required as either of the hot lines can source current in the event of a short, whereas a neutral cannot source any current, so does not need to be fused.

Brew on :mug:
Outstanding diagrams. I'm not an electric brewer (yet) and have a question. Is there a reason I don't see any 'emergency' all stop buttons? With 240v would it be deemed 'too late?
 

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Outstanding diagrams. I'm not an electric brewer (yet) and have a question. Is there a reason I don't see any 'emergency' all stop buttons? With 240v would it be deemed 'too late?
The reason there is no e-stop switch is that it would be just another switch that does the same thing (as far as shutting things off) as the main power switch, located approximately the same distance from the brewer. In industrial situations, e-stops are located near where operators usually work, which are most often not anywhere near the control panel. They give the operator a quick way to shut things down that is within easy reach.

If you really want one, it is a trivial add to the design. Just add an NC mushroom top switch in series with (to the left of the main power switch, above where the two main switch contact pairs are connected together) with the main power switch.

Brew on :mug:
 

WNKbrew

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The reason there is no e-stop switch is that it would be just another switch that does the same thing (as far as shutting things off) as the main power switch, located approximately the same distance from the brewer. In industrial situations, e-stops are located near where operators usually work, which are most often not anywhere near the control panel. They give the operator a quick way to shut things down that is within easy reach.

If you really want one, it is a trivial add to the design. Just add an NC mushroom top switch in series with (to the left of the main power switch, above where the two main switch contact pairs are connected together) with the main power switch.

Brew on :mug:
makes sense. would love to get into ebrewing but my house panel is maxed out. 2 food fridges, lagering fridge, 2 kegerators, glycol chiller, and large freezer don't help. ComEd sends me Christmas cards.
 

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Would you put fuses on both hot poles? What amperage?
If your service breaker is 30A, and your wire is 10AWG, then you don't need fuses on any 10AWG wiring. If your service breaker is more than 30A, and your wire is 10AWG, then you need 30A fuses/breakers to protect your 10AWG wires from overcurrent.

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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120V pump version is the first drawing in this post. Note that it requires a 4-wire power input, so a 10-30 outlet will not work. 4-wires are needed to get both 120V and 240V from the same outlet.

Brew on :mug:
I have a 24V (not 240V) pump with a power supply that can plug into 110-240V. The power supply has a standard US 2-prong plug. I do not have a neutral wire in my circuit. Can I use a standard 120V receptacle (NEMA 5-15R) in your 240V schematic without neutral?
 

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I have a 24V (not 240V) pump with a power supply that can plug into 110-240V. The power supply has a standard US 2-prong plug. I do not have a neutral wire in my circuit. Can I use a standard 120V receptacle (NEMA 5-15R) in your 240V schematic without neutral?
Yes, you can do it, but it opens up the opportunity to plug a 120V device into a 240V outlet. Personally, I would not do it. It would be better to change the plug on the power supply to a 240V plug, such as a NEMA 6-15 receptacle and plug

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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Yes as long as your pump doesn't draw more than 120 watts.
I have a Steelhead 2.0 pump which is the same as the Topsflo pump on your website. Do you happen to know how much wattage it draws?

Also, I have seen some concerns online with the food safety of the materials used in this pump. What is your opinion of that?

Thanks.
 
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Bobby_M

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The concerns about the food safety of the pump was brought up by a competing manufacturer for what that's worth. I personally use that pump on my own brewing rig. The most dangerous chemical in all of brewing is the ethanol.

25 watts.
 
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Adrian Gresores

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Yes, you can do it, but it opens up the opportunity to plug a 120V device into a 240V outlet. Personally, I would not do it. It would be better to change the plug on the power supply to a 240V plug, such as a NEMA 6-15 receptacle and plug

Brew on :mug:
So, I was wondering if you would take a look at a schematic I created based on your schematics and suggestions from Bobby. I also tried to use some hardware that I already had on hand. I'm worried that my substitutions just won't work out. I would appreciate your opinion, so I don't blow anyone up. Thank you.
 

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doug293cz

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So, I was wondering if you would take a look at a schematic I created based on your schematics and suggestions from Bobby. I also tried to use some hardware that I already had on hand. I'm worried that my substitutions just won't work out. I would appreciate your opinion, so I don't blow anyone up. Thank you.
The two sets of fuses you have are redundant. You only need the left most pair. You can also use finer wire to the pump power supply. The pump only uses 25W, so even if your pump power supply is only 85% efficient, it will only draw about 1/8 amp at 240V.

Other than that, the drawing looks good (except I doubt the switches you are using are actually rated for 30A - those are rare animals.)

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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The two sets of fuses you have are redundant. You only need the left most pair. You can also use finer wire to the pump power supply. The pump only uses 25W, so even if your pump power supply is only 85% efficient, it will only draw about 1/8 amp at 240V.

Other than that, the drawing looks good (except I doubt the switches you are using are actually rated for 30A - those are rare animals.)

Brew on :mug:
Thanks. I screwed up with labelling the fuses, actually. Taken from your diagram, those should have been 10A fuses to the left of the main switch and 1A fuses to the right. So, are both sets necessary?

These are the Rocker switches. I have one other that isn't illuminated, but still 30A.
 

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I am surprised at the switch current rating, but it is 30A (although the contacts are only rated for 10,000 cycles.)

I use 10A fuses for typical Chugger type pumps which require 1.4 - 1.5A @ 120V (or about 170W.) Your pump power supply will draw a fraction of an amp, so doesn't need 10A fuses, although they will work, and provide protection for 16AWG wire or larger.

Brew on :mug:
 

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Looks good.

Element rocker is fine the way it is. It could also have both hots wired thru it, and that would also be fine.

It's good to have double pole switches "near" the power input so that everything downstream can be completely deenergized. Your main power switch, and element contactor serve this function, so the other switches can be wired either as double pole (2 hots) or single pole (1 hot.)

Brew on :mug:
 
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Adrian Gresores

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Looks good.

Element rocker is fine the way it is. It could also have both hots wired thru it, and that would also be fine.

It's good to have double pole switches "near" the power input so that everything downstream can be completely deenergized. Your main power switch, and element contactor serve this function, so the other switches can be wired either as double pole (2 hots) or single pole (1 hot.)

Brew on :mug:
I put the controller together, but I need some more help. I'm a physician, not an engineer, so I am always limping my way through these things.

The main power and heating element control, through the DSPR120, are working perfectly. The problem is the pump control. When I connected it per my diagram, I got no power to the pump. I checked the power supply terminals with the multimeter. I got about 120V with each of the power cables connected to the PS, as expected. The ground was connected correctly. However, there was no power across the 24V DC terminals. I then noticed that the red wire from the pump switch was not connected to power. However, when I did connect it, the fuses blew. Why did I have 120V at the red wire terminal on the PS when the red switch wire was not connected to power, and why did it blow the fuses when I did connect it? Also, I assume the PS is bad, since there is no 24V power, correct?

As an option, I'm thinking of eliminating the PS, and going back to a 6-15R. However, the original external PS for that pump only has 2 wires going to the plug. Can I convert this to a 6-15p, and how would I wire that?

Thanks for all your help.
 

doug293cz

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I put the controller together, but I need some more help. I'm a physician, not an engineer, so I am always limping my way through these things.

The main power and heating element control, through the DSPR120, are working perfectly. The problem is the pump control. When I connected it per my diagram, I got no power to the pump. I checked the power supply terminals with the multimeter. I got about 120V with each of the power cables connected to the PS, as expected. The ground was connected correctly. However, there was no power across the 24V DC terminals. I then noticed that the red wire from the pump switch was not connected to power. However, when I did connect it, the fuses blew. Why did I have 120V at the red wire terminal on the PS when the red switch wire was not connected to power, and why did it blow the fuses when I did connect it? Also, I assume the PS is bad, since there is no 24V power, correct?

As an option, I'm thinking of eliminating the PS, and going back to a 6-15R. However, the original external PS for that pump only has 2 wires going to the plug. Can I convert this to a 6-15p, and how would I wire that?

Thanks for all your help.
The 120V reading on the "disconnected" voltage converter power feed could be due to leakage current in the circuitry. Semiconductors can have some counter intuitive behavior. For example, if you disconnect the element and turn on the element enable switch/contactor, the element firing light comes on even when the SSR is off. This is due to leakage current thru the SSR, and is normal behavior.

The fuse blowing could be due to "inrush" current when the power supply is powered up. The inrush current can be much higher than the steady state operating current. I would try replacing the fast blow 1A fuses with slow blow 2A fuses. These fuses should not blow due to the inrush current.

Your power supply may not be bad. Try the slow blow fuses before giving up on it.

Brew on :mug:
 
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