NE style juicy IPA concept

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Brewster2256

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Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) 80.9 %
Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) 7.4 %
Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) 7.4 %
Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) 4.4 %

Apollo [17.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 6 25.6 IBUs

Centennial [10.00 %] - Whirlpool 30.0 min 10.5 IBUs
Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Whirlpool 30.0 min 8.6 IBUs
Chinook [13.00 %] - Whirlpool 30.0 min 6.8 IBUs
(Total whirlpool hops 1lb/bbl)
- 2 parts Cent/ 2 parts Mosaic/ 1 part Chinook

Mosaic (dry hop 3 days into fermentation)
Idaho 7 (dry hop 3 days into fermentation)
Centennial (dry hop 3 days into fermentation)
(Total Dry hopping 2lb/bbl)
- (8 parts Cent/7 parts Mosaic/5 parts Idaho 7)

Sacch 'Bruxellensis' Trois (White Labs #WLP644)

O.G: 1.059
FG: 1.008
6.4% ABV, 63 IBUs

Fermented @ 70 F (low end)
Water (after added CaCl)
211.82 Sulfate
184.95 Chloride
114.65 Calcium
22.5 Magnesium
98.05 Sodium
117.98 Tot Alkalinity
72 HC03
253.43 CaCO3

Using Acid malt to bring down pH at mash, and adding phosphoric acid to sparge. Water here is alkaline (pH 8-8.4)

Idea here is a juicy IPA.

Mid-fermentation dry hopping supposedly disrupts flocculation and with an already low-flocc yeast it should be plenty cloudy. Oats, wheat and CaCl aid in the mouthfeel and the yeast should compliment the tropical citrus hops with similar characteristics of it's own.

Planning on putting on a PRV on the blow-off by the time the gravity drops to 1.015 in the hope of retaining as much aroma as possible.

What do you guys think? Any extra techniques used in juicy ipa brewing?
(inspired heavily by madfermentationist)
 

Johow

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I see your in California as am I, I am very intrigued by the name "Juicy IPA". I have not seen any of these beers available locally so I wonder, what is a "Juicy IPA" exactly.... I'll be following along on your thread to learn much I hope.....
 

specharka

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Your mineral levels are waaaay too high to achieve the effect you're looking for. Assuming you're not adding gypsum or epsom to your brewing water, I would strongly suggest cutting it 50/50 with distilled or RO water, which should cut your magnesium and sulfate level in half. For a really juicy IPA, I would shoot for ~80 ppm SO4, ~120 ppm Cl and a mash pH of 5.3. Sulfate enhances the perception of dryness in the beer and will accentuate hop bitterness, so it's critical to moderate your mineral levels to achieve the same effect.
 
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Brewster2256

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These juicy IPAs have been popping up lately, locally by Monkish and Modern Times but also by Tree House, Trillium and Tired Hands. They appear really cloudy, intentionally so, with the idea that the yeast wont pull hop flavor and aroma out of the beer through flocculation. It's the new IPA fad, but they taste killer. Some breweries have admitted to using flour in the boil to achieve the same effect, because of its popularity.
 

chickypad

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I see your in California as am I, I am very intrigued by the name "Juicy IPA". I have not seen any of these beers available locally so I wonder, what is a "Juicy IPA" exactly.... I'll be following along on your thread to learn much I hope.....
Fieldwork is making some if you get those around Auburn. Just had their Pulp on tap yesterday - yummy!

Fieldwork Pulp
 
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Brewster2256

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specharka, you're right of course. I'm not adding anything besides acid malt in the mash, phosphoric acid in the sparge water, and CaCl to balance out the gypsum to chloride ratio. My pH ends up being fine, in the 4.2-4.6 range for most of my final product beer. At my scale, buying RO water is not a viable option. I'll probably end up getting a RO system installed to dilute my mineral content.
 

lilbova3

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Grain bill looks good. After doing this recipe, try experimenting with higher flaked adjuncts. I'm in the 20-30% range and feel that is the sweet spot.

Personally, Chinook is a little harsh to me. At least your using it in a lower ratio than Centennial and Mosaic so that's good.

Try bumping down the IBUs. These types of beers have a round, soft mouthfeel with low bitterness. The round and softness will come from water chemistry, more on this in a second, and high protein grain additions (flaked adjuncts, white wheat). You can give it a go with the higher IBUs first go around but try scaling back next time. My most recent NE hoppy beer I added all my hops in at WP only, no bittering addition.

Water chemistry plays a big part in these beers. Lower sulfate and higher calcium chloride additions. I've found a sweet spot for my beers to be around Ca: 70, Cl: 130 and SO4: 40. I do use distilled water when I brew so it's easy to get to those numbers. I think your mineral content is a little too high.

I love the amount that your dry hopping! That will help the beer be so baller! If possible, think about splitting up the DH. Half at day 4 or 5 of fermentation and then the other half a couple of days before you bottle/keg.

These beers are tend to be on the higher FG side - 1.015+. The residual sugars left over don't make it malty but give it a sweetness that helps make the beer juicy like. I would consider mashing high. For mine I'll mash in at 156*.

Best of luck. Keep us posted. Here's a pic of how some of mine have turned out.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1476623673.725435.jpg
 
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Brewster2256

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lilboya- Thank you, looks like solid advice. I'll definitely kick the bittering hops, mash higher, double dry hop, and probably change out the Chinook for something else maybe Mandarina Bavaria or Simcoe. I'll keep you guys updated.
 

Ruckusz28

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Grain bill looks good. After doing this recipe, try experimenting with higher flaked adjuncts. I'm in the 20-30% range and feel that is the sweet spot.

Personally, Chinook is a little harsh to me. At least your using it in a lower ratio than Centennial and Mosaic so that's good.

Try bumping down the IBUs. These types of beers have a round, soft mouthfeel with low bitterness. The round and softness will come from water chemistry, more on this in a second, and high protein grain additions (flaked adjuncts, white wheat). You can give it a go with the higher IBUs first go around but try scaling back next time. My most recent NE hoppy beer I added all my hops in at WP only, no bittering addition.

Water chemistry plays a big part in these beers. Lower sulfate and higher calcium chloride additions. I've found a sweet spot for my beers to be around Ca: 70, Cl: 130 and SO4: 40. I do use distilled water when I brew so it's easy to get to those numbers. I think your mineral content is a little too high.

I love the amount that your dry hopping! That will help the beer be so baller! If possible, think about splitting up the DH. Half at day 4 or 5 of fermentation and then the other half a couple of days before you bottle/keg.

These beers are tend to be on the higher FG side - 1.015+. The residual sugars left over don't make it malty but give it a sweetness that helps make the beer juicy like. I would consider mashing high. For mine I'll mash in at 156*.
What he said. Nailed it. I too brew with RO water (at least for the mash) and add 2:1 ratios of chloride:sulfate. I use about 20-30% flaked adjuncts and shoot for a FG of 1.016 give or take. I mash at 156 if I'm using Conan or 152 if I'm using Wy1056. I prefer Conan to Wy1056, however both will yield a hazy for days beer.

Typically i'll add about a .25oz/gallon bittering charge of Columbus, a 5 minute addition, and heavy whirlpool additions after the wort has cooled to 180F. Let the hops steep for at least 40 minutes here if you can.

Here's one of mine using Wy1056 and all falconers flight.

 

cegan09

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These juicy IPAs have been popping up lately, locally by Monkish and Modern Times but also by Tree House, Trillium and Tired Hands. They appear really cloudy, intentionally so, with the idea that the yeast wont pull hop flavor and aroma out of the beer through flocculation. It's the new IPA fad, but they taste killer. Some breweries have admitted to using flour in the boil to achieve the same effect, because of its popularity.
Let's dispel some incorrect info shall we? The haze does not come from yeast. It is massive amounts of hop oils and proteins suspended in the beer. The harvested batch of Conan I have and use drops out crystal clear with no fining agents in plenty of other styles of beer, yet my NE IPAs are hazy. The haze is from the massive whirlpool and dry hop additions. (if you use conan, start it around 66/67, let it rise to 68/69 over a couple days, then rise to 71/72 as fermentation is finishing, hold there, then come down to 68 again. Peach for days)

No respectable brewery has admitted to using flour, though plenty of home brewers have before they figured out the right way to do it. Don't use flour.


The keys to this style are low sulfate, high chloride. ~20% flaked grains. Aim for 35IBU of boil hop additions, then everything else is whirlpool, and dry hops. I throw the first dry hop in as fermentation is slowing down, and the second in a few days later. Others do the second addition in a dry hop keg. You'll end up with a smooth, crazy aromatic and flavorful IPA.
 

grassfeeder

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Let's dispel some incorrect info shall we? The haze does not come from yeast. It is massive amounts of hop oils and proteins suspended in the beer. The harvested batch of Conan I have and use drops out crystal clear with no fining agents in plenty of other styles of beer, yet my NE IPAs are hazy. The haze is from the massive whirlpool and dry hop additions. (if you use conan, start it around 66/67, let it rise to 68/69 over a couple days, then rise to 71/72 as fermentation is finishing, hold there, then come down to 68 again. Peach for days)

No respectable brewery has admitted to using flour, though plenty of home brewers have before they figured out the right way to do it. Don't use flour.


The keys to this style are low sulfate, high chloride. ~20% flaked grains. Aim for 35IBU of boil hop additions, then everything else is whirlpool, and dry hops. I throw the first dry hop in as fermentation is slowing down, and the second in a few days later. Others do the second addition in a dry hop keg. You'll end up with a smooth, crazy aromatic and flavorful IPA.
and bingo!
 
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Brewster2256

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Let's dispel some incorrect info shall we? The haze does not come from yeast. It is massive amounts of hop oils and proteins suspended in the beer. The harvested batch of Conan I have and use drops out crystal clear with no fining agents in plenty of other styles of beer, yet my NE IPAs are hazy. The haze is from the massive whirlpool and dry hop additions. (if you use conan, start it around 66/67, let it rise to 68/69 over a couple days, then rise to 71/72 as fermentation is finishing, hold there, then come down to 68 again. Peach for days)

No respectable brewery has admitted to using flour, though plenty of home brewers have before they figured out the right way to do it. Don't use flour.

The keys to this style are low sulfate, high chloride. ~20% flaked grains. Aim for 35IBU of boil hop additions, then everything else is whirlpool, and dry hops. I throw the first dry hop in as fermentation is slowing down, and the second in a few days later. Others do the second addition in a dry hop keg. You'll end up with a smooth, crazy aromatic and flavorful IPA.
I'm not saying the haze is only yeast, but the yeast strains used in a NE IPA, are generally low-medium flocculators. According to Chris White at Whitelabs, low flocculating yeast does not begin dropping out until day 15. In addition, fining agents are not generally used in this style. Also, there are reports of heavy dry hopping during fermentation disrupting flocculation.

(http://inboundsbrewing.com/crafting-a-new-england-ipa-recipe-part-1-why-so-hazy/)
http://www.whitelabs.com/sites/default/files/Flocculation_help.pdf

At least in the case of Tired Hands, they have confirmed using flour in a few of their beers of this style.

http://beergraphs.com/bg/973-two-brewers-admit-their-methods-for-haze/

Is anyone aware of a study analyzing the makeup of NE IPA haze? According to the link above, they do contain a lot of yeast.

"... we've begun looking at some of the beers under the miscrocope and it turns out that some of them are yeast bombs."

To make myself clear, I'm not claiming these beers should be left cloudy by intentionally leaving yeast in suspension, or that any brewer should use flour in the boil to induce haze. I do think that the general process does not favor yeast flocculation.
 

henchman24

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I know a head brewer at a well respected brewery in Colorado that makes a good NE style IPA that uses flour. He won't put it out publicly because of the backlash on the very idea of it. It is very controversial not only in home brewing, but in the industry itself. Though flour has been used for a long, long time for head retention in other styles. In the mash it leads to some issues, but those have workarounds.

It is possible to make a hazy beer without flour, but I don't think that means that flour should disregarded completely. Using a couple tablespoons in a 100% GP wort allows a different backbone to bounce the hops off of and it makes a pretty damn good NE IPA (I've done it myself a few times). I mostly prefer to use flaked wheat and oats, but that is more a flavor preference than anything else.

IMO it is a combination of proteins, yeast, hop oils, chlorides, and soft bitterness that give the NE IPA its distinctive flavors. The haze is just a byproduct of that, not necessarily what should be desired (though for this style it needs to have some). There are plenty of ways to get similar results.

As for this recipe, I'd up the hops personally, but I can get rather extreme on these beers. I'd also find a way to cut the sulfates, even 50% RO water would help.
 

jready

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Love this thread I have been doing a very similar base recipe switching out two row for pilsner or marris otter (I think I've now settled on mo). Hops are usually a 30 min charge then the rest at 10 and whirlpool then copious dry hops.

Curious if anyone uses a small percentage of honey malt. I have seen mention of it in several clone attempts on NE style IPAs.

Personally I don't add flour. I usually make a ten gallon batch, first keg is cloudy second keg is usually clear. I'm using a Conan strain.
 

Johow

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Love this thread...
Personally I don't add flour. I usually make a ten gallon batch, first keg is cloudy second keg is usually clear. I'm using a Conan strain.
How does the second keg compare taste wise? Does the clear beer suffer for being clear?

I'll be brewing a near version of Braufessor's recipe in the next day or so. I'm using London Ale III.
 

jready

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How does the second keg compare taste wise? Does the clear beer suffer for being clear?

I'll be brewing a near version of Braufessor's recipe in the next day or so. I'm using London Ale III.

Tastes the same maybe slightly faded hop character. I will say in two batches I had to pull the dip tube on the second keg and trim off a 1/4 inch due to hop sludge clogging it. Even blowing it out by switching the gas with liquid didn't help.

I have never gone through IPAs as fast as these go. Even my friends who aren't hop heads can't get enough.
 

TheHairyHop

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Grain bill looks good. After doing this recipe, try experimenting with higher flaked adjuncts. I'm in the 20-30% range and feel that is the sweet spot.

Personally, Chinook is a little harsh to me. At least your using it in a lower ratio than Centennial and Mosaic so that's good.

Try bumping down the IBUs. These types of beers have a round, soft mouthfeel with low bitterness. The round and softness will come from water chemistry, more on this in a second, and high protein grain additions (flaked adjuncts, white wheat). You can give it a go with the higher IBUs first go around but try scaling back next time. My most recent NE hoppy beer I added all my hops in at WP only, no bittering addition.

Water chemistry plays a big part in these beers. Lower sulfate and higher calcium chloride additions. I've found a sweet spot for my beers to be around Ca: 70, Cl: 130 and SO4: 40. I do use distilled water when I brew so it's easy to get to those numbers. I think your mineral content is a little too high.

I love the amount that your dry hopping! That will help the beer be so baller! If possible, think about splitting up the DH. Half at day 4 or 5 of fermentation and then the other half a couple of days before you bottle/keg.

These beers are tend to be on the higher FG side - 1.015+. The residual sugars left over don't make it malty but give it a sweetness that helps make the beer juicy like. I would consider mashing high. For mine I'll mash in at 156*.

Best of luck. Keep us posted. Here's a pic of how some of mine have turned out.

View attachment 373682
Fwiw, Treehouse does an all Chinook ipa called Sap and it isn't harsh at all. That's a great looking beer btw!
 

day_trippr

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Does it strike anyone else as massively stupid to use flour to create an effect in a beer?
Years ago I read of folks using raw flour in their hefes.
Even then my first thought was always "Wtf is the point of "phony cloudy" beer?"

Cheers! (I might be getting too old for this hobby...:drunk:)
 

Johow

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I've only had a couple pints of this style beer and they were just from a local brewery here in my little corner of Northern California so I guess not really the real thing but they were very tasty none the less. If I could brew something as nice, I don't care if it's clear or cloudy, I just loved the way it tasted.
 

TheHairyHop

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Does it strike anyone else as massively stupid to use flour to create an effect in a beer?
Years ago I read of folks using raw flour in their hefes.
Even then my first thought was always "Wtf is the point of "phony cloudy" beer?"

Cheers! (I might be getting too old for this hobby...:drunk:)
Flour is just finely milled raw wheat, no? Raw wheat berries are something you can buy at a lhbs, mill and then mash. I see no problem adding flour to try to duplicate some sort of missed process at the homebrew level
 

JONNYROTTEN

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Not understanding the cloudiness from the yeast not dropping out concept. Yeast bite is flat out mouth puckering nasty. How does it not negatively affect flavor???
 

Oceanbear1

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I know a head brewer at a well respected brewery in Colorado that makes a good NE style IPA that uses flour. He won't put it out publicly because of the backlash on the very idea of it. It is very controversial not only in home brewing, but in the industry itself. Though flour has been used for a long, long time for head retention in other styles. In the mash it leads to some issues, but those have workarounds.

It is possible to make a hazy beer without flour, but I don't think that means that flour should disregarded completely. Using a couple tablespoons in a 100% GP wort allows a different backbone to bounce the hops off of and it makes a pretty damn good NE IPA (I've done it myself a few times). I mostly prefer to use flaked wheat and oats, but that is more a flavor preference than anything else.

IMO it is a combination of proteins, yeast, hop oils, chlorides, and soft bitterness that give the NE IPA its distinctive flavors. The haze is just a byproduct of that, not necessarily what should be desired (though for this style it needs to have some). There are plenty of ways to get similar results.

As for this recipe, I'd up the hops personally, but I can get rather extreme on these beers. I'd also find a way to cut the sulfates, even 50% RO water would help.
See now I find your first part interesting, as there are not too many breweries in Colorado doing this style. I don't think its cerebral or weldwerks as They seems to have been pretty open with their process, so who does that leave? odd13? fiction brewing? I know you won't say because you want to respect your friends privacy, but man am I intrigued to know who uses flour in Colorado
 

drunami

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Just drank the last 22 of my first NEIPA the other day. My main twist on the style was to use a traditional PNW hop bill, just adding at NEIPA times. Went something-like equal parts Centennial, Cascade, and Willamette, ~30 IBUs in the boil, big flameout/whirlpool addition, and then dry hopped after 3 days with an fton of cascade. Bottled after 10 days. Fermented with Conan.

Let me tell you, it's not only these gross new hop varieties that take well to this method!
 
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Brewster2256

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I wonder if anyone has tried using Spelt Malt in the grist. I have a source showing it at ~17% protein vs. most wheat varieties at 14%.
 

gifty74

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Interesting at the repeated comments of 2:1'ish Cl to SO4 ratio. Most of the other NE IPA threads I started reading, including the clone for Heady Topper, say opposite. I even got an email from John Kimmich advising to harden with CaSO4 (gypsum) because that's what he does and to get the sulfate way up high, over 250ppm. Hmm....
 
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Brewster2256

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Thanks man. His Galaxy Funktown Spelt uses Funktown Pale Ale Yeast, which contains White Labs 644 and a Vermont Ale yeast, definitely stealing that. Seems like a great beer. Changing my malt bill to:

80% 2-row (maybe a lighter heirloom variety?)
4.5% Weyermann Acid Malt
7.75% Chateau Spelt Malt
7.75% Chateau Oat

Funktown yeast

Lb Hops/bbl

.1 lbs Apollo [17.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min
.5 lbs Mandarina Bavaria [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
.4 lbs Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
.2 lbs Chinook [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
.2 lbs Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min

.4 lbs Mosaic (dry hop 3 days into fermentation)
.4 lbs Mosaic (dry hop 7 days into fermentation)
.3 lbs Idaho 7 (dry hop 7 days into fermentation)
.2 lbs Idaho 7 (dry hop 3 days into fermentation)
.5 lbs Centennial (dry hop 7 days into fermentation)
.3 lbs Centennial (dry hop 3 days into fermentation)

Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Final Gravity: 1.015 SG (Mashing at 156)
5.8% ABV and ~50 IBUs
 
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Brewster2256

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Put the Haze IPA on tap on 12/2/16. It took almost 2 weeks to ferment from 1.062 to 1.012 @ 70F. We under-pitched somewhat, so it's understandable. It also dried out more than we thought, which made me wonder whether the Sacch. B Trois strain had enzymes like Brett, to break up otherwise unfermentable sugars/starches, especially considering that up until recently, it was thought to be a Brett strain.

The beer smells and tastes like a grapefruit juice mixed with pineapple juice. It also has a mild sage like herbal flavor, which I attribute to Idaho 7. Even now, after being on tap for a week, it is still utterly cloudy and still very hoppy and fresh tasting. I'm planning on using the same base malt and yeast while changing out the hops to experiment with different varieties.

Sorry for the terrible office beer picture

IMG_0725.JPG
 

daygobrewer

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I'm planning on using the same base malt and yeast while changing out the hops to experiment with different varieties.
This is what I've been doing intermittently since June with this yeast.

70% 2- Row
20% White Wheat
10% Flaked Oats

1 oz per gallon hopstand
1 oz per gallon dry hop

So far I've used Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, Columbus, Calypso, and Vic Secret.

It's been a tasty 6 months.
 

WeirdBrew

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This is what I've been doing intermittently since June with this yeast.

70% 2- Row
20% White Wheat
10% Flaked Oats

1 oz per gallon hopstand
1 oz per gallon dry hop

So far I've used Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, Columbus, Calypso, and Vic Secret.

It's been a tasty 6 months.
Just curious, were these brews you did single hop or did you mix them up? Specifically I'm wondering what your thoughts, as well as others, were regarding calypso? I'm about to bottle up an IPA that I used calypso in for the first time and I'm definitely getting a strong earthy flavor. I see that earthy is in the description of calypso so I'm assuming it came from there but I was just surprised at how predominate the earthiness came through.
 

daygobrewer

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Just curious, were these brews you did single hop or did you mix them up? Specifically I'm wondering what your thoughts, as well as others, were regarding calypso? I'm about to bottle up an IPA that I used calypso in for the first time and I'm definitely getting a strong earthy flavor. I see that earthy is in the description of calypso so I'm assuming it came from there but I was just surprised at how predominate the earthiness came through.
These were all single hop.

The batch with Calypso definitely had an earthy note to it. I would it describe more as an earthy-tea, like a Pu-erh.

It also had that apple/pear/malic thing going on.
 

Mallchamber

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Grain bill looks good. After doing this recipe, try experimenting with higher flaked adjuncts. I'm in the 20-30% range and feel that is the sweet spot.

Personally, Chinook is a little harsh to me. At least your using it in a lower ratio than Centennial and Mosaic so that's good.

Try bumping down the IBUs. These types of beers have a round, soft mouthfeel with low bitterness. The round and softness will come from water chemistry, more on this in a second, and high protein grain additions (flaked adjuncts, white wheat). You can give it a go with the higher IBUs first go around but try scaling back next time. My most recent NE hoppy beer I added all my hops in at WP only, no bittering addition.

Water chemistry plays a big part in these beers. Lower sulfate and higher calcium chloride additions. I've found a sweet spot for my beers to be around Ca: 70, Cl: 130 and SO4: 40. I do use distilled water when I brew so it's easy to get to those numbers. I think your mineral content is a little too high.

I love the amount that your dry hopping! That will help the beer be so baller! If possible, think about splitting up the DH. Half at day 4 or 5 of fermentation and then the other half a couple of days before you bottle/keg.

These beers are tend to be on the higher FG side - 1.015+. The residual sugars left over don't make it malty but give it a sweetness that helps make the beer juicy like. I would consider mashing high. For mine I'll mash in at 156*.

Best of luck. Keep us posted. Here's a pic of how some of mine have turned out.

View attachment 373682

Do you have a recipe for the beer pictured? That looks fantastic!
 

Hwk-I-St8

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I use around 10% flaked (6% oats, 4% wheat).
1318 yeast
Very light or no bittering charge (I use .5 oz or less at FWH)
A lot of WP hops
first dry hop about 36 hours or so into ferm (when ferm just slows)
a second dry hop about 3-4 days before cold crash
total hops for 5 gallons around 10-12 oz
All hops added loose...those WP hops in with the ferm is good.
keg 48 hours after cold crash
about 150 ppm chloride, 70 ppm sulfate
Mash pH of 5.3 (usually around 2 oz of acidulated malt for my grain bill)

For those that say it's yeast in suspension, 1318 is a pretty flocculant yeast.

It tastes juicy and looks like this:

DingoJuice.jpeg
 
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