NC officially bans smoking in bars / restaurants

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Evan! said:
I love it when people roll up into the debate subforum and tell people to stop debating. If you don't like debate, then you can respectfully GTFO of the debate forum. As I said, I have expressed my feelings to my state reps over VA's ban that's set to go into effect in December. Doesn't mean I can't debate it here too.

And in case you haven't noticed, the sky is falling.
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I didn't realize this was the debate forum? And, personal attacks are acceptable.

Evan, you clearly have strong views on this subject. However, your attitude is disrespectful (GTFO out, etc.) and just might consider expanding your mind a bit to consider other stances on the subject. There is more than "you" in this country and, no, we're not all trying to take away your guns....Or what ever grand scheme you've concocted in your head.

You live in a democracy...The sky is not falling...You're more than free to debate, but please keep it respectful. :)
 
flyangler18 said:
I normally stay the hell out of these conversations, but I need to make an observation based on some bars here in PA. The vast majority of eateries/public houses in this state are smoke-free, though there are a small percentage that, through some provision under the ban, permit smoking. I'll have to research the specifics.
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Philadelphia establishments are exempt from the smoking ban if a bar's food sales account for less than 10% of total sales and alcohol is more than 90% of all sales.
 
I didn't even notice that this wasn't in the debate section. With a topic like this, I just assumed that it was.
 
lamarguy said:
I didn't realize this was the debate forum? And, personal attacks are acceptable.
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I didn't attack anyone. I just said that, if you don't like debate, then don't hang out in the middle of them. But yeah, olllllo put it here...which I still don't understand :D

Evan, you clearly have strong views on this subject. However, your attitude is disrespectful (GTFO out, etc.) and just might consider expanding your mind a bit to consider other stances on the subject. There is more than "you" in this country and, no, we're not all trying to take away your guns....Or what ever grand scheme you've concocted in your head.

You live in a democracy...The sky is not falling...You're more than free to debate, but please keep it respectful. :)
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Lighten up, dude. You take me wayyyyy too seriously.

I haven't concocted any grand scheme, either...this is not in my head...this is all too real. Every year, more and more states and cities are passing this legislation, and similar legislation dealing with other personal responsibility issues. Just because we're not yet a full-on communist dictatorship doesn't mean that we aren't headed down a terrible path as the political class grows stronger and governs over more of our lives.

Just saying "you live in a democracy" does not comfort me at all. In a democracy, the majority can ostensibly force the minority to do whatever they want via popular vote. I fear pure majority rule almost as much as I fear monarchy or dictatorship.

I'm sorry, but it's precisely the people who sit back and say "oh, no, everything's fine" that lead to the status quo being continued from election to election...everyone fights over which republocrat we should elect, while the political class sits back and uses blatant fearmongering to con us into giving up more of our treasure and liberty. It's a classic example of the frog in the slowly-boiling pot of water. Little by little, our republic is chipped away at, and nobody says much about it, because, after all, it's just little things. As the pot slowly warms up, the frog doesn't notice it, because it's so gradual. Come on, right, it's just a little smoking ban. It's just a little drug ban. It's just a little homebrewing ban. Ugh.
 
UncleDave said:
Let's see here... you used an ad hominem, non sequitur, hasty generalization, and personal attack in two sentences. And I did not engage anyone here for debate, merely voiced my support of this legislation. This was an interesting topic that has turned into a chest-thumping competition to see who can crow the loudest. Much of this coming from people who don't live here, have no say in electing the state representatives who pass laws, and will not be affected. Go figure.:rolleyes:
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I probably did all that grammatical stuff. I wouldn't have realised it though, because I know jack about grammar. Personal attack? no. I didn't make one of those.
 
lamarguy said:
...you ...just might consider expanding your mind a bit to consider other stances on the subject. There is more than "you" in this country and, no, we're not all trying to take away your guns....Or what ever grand scheme you've concocted in your head.

You live in a democracy...The sky is not falling...You're more than free to debate, but please keep it respectful. :)
Click to expand...

I will consider your side of the argument when any of it makes logical sense. Adding more over reaching laws because we already have some is not a logical reason. Because I want them too isn't either.

We don't live in a democracy.

I already think the sky has fallen in the US.
 
It seems to me that if you went to a clambake and oyster bar and happen to be allergic to shellfish, that using the same logic, you could demand that the owner prepare a non-shellfish entree for you...right?

It's odd that cigerette smoke is such a horrible thing, and yet people are just fine walking and standing a few feet away from running cars every day. I have to believe that the amount of carcinogens I inhale walking around downtown every day far outweighs what smokers do to my health, and yet no one seems to mind those hazards.
 
Ego Archive said:
It seems to me that if you went to a clambake and oyster bar and happen to be allergic to shellfish, that using the same logic, you could demand that the owner prepare a non-shellfish entree for you...right?
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Poor analogy. We're not talking about 5% of the population that happens to be allergic to shellfish. We're talking about 60+ percent that has voted to ban smoking in enclosed places (restaurants, bars, etc.).

Ego Archive said:
It's odd that cigerette smoke is such a horrible thing, and yet people are just fine walking and standing a few feet away from running cars every day.
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In case you haven't noticed, many states and counties have passed car emissions laws mandating the cars run "clean". So, yes, we've voted to protect the environment from car emissions too.
 
Braid said:
Can't wait until we all get to stand in line at the grocery store to get whatever food the state deems we deserve that day!
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Evan! said:
And in case you haven't noticed, the sky is falling.

honestly, with all the nanny-state do-goodery these days, and the complete and utter lack of self-determination and responsibility amongst our lazy, apathetic, wussified populace, I'm surprised that smoking hasn't been banned altogether.

I haven't concocted any grand scheme, either...this is not in my head...this is all too real.
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Boerderij_Kabouter said:
We don't live in a democracy.

I already think the sky has fallen in the US.

The US is more regulated than the EU in my opinion. At least for most of the activities I engage in regularly. The land of the free is a misnomer.
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Would anyone else like to sign the "sky is falling" petition? :D

SkyIsFalling.jpg
 
lamarguy said:
In case you haven't noticed, many states and counties have passed car emissions laws mandating the cars run "clean"..
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Is this the planet Earth we are talking about here? Do you mean clean as in no cars anywhere, or do yo mean just slightly less pollutant cars?
 
The we don't live in a democracy comment was a fact. We live in a representative republic.

Current cars with their "clean" emissions are way worse than cigarette smoke. Also, the US' "clean" emissions standards are a joke and many counties don't even have any standards or requirements.

Still waiting for a single logical rebuttal.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
Still waiting for a single logical rebuttal.
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Ha...You just might be a politician yourself. You answer questions with more questions (e.g., I'm not going to address your response. Still waiting on your rebuttel.) and claim to understand all of our country's ills.

What is your proposed solution(s)? That we deregulate smoking, drinking, driving, stock market, etc.? Regulation exists to protect people, sometimes from themselves if necessary. If society votes to protect itself, then that is the will of the people.

And, I think it's hilarious that you say "The US is more regulated than the EU in my opinion." but seem to overlook the fact that most of Europe banned smoking in bars and restaurants a couple of years ago. ;)
 
lamarguy said:
Ha...You just might be a politician yourself. You answer questions with more questions (e.g., I'm not going to address your response. Still waiting on your rebuttel.) and claim to understand all of our country's ills.

What is your proposed solution(s)? That we deregulate smoking, drinking, driving, stock market, etc.? Regulation exists to protect people, sometimes from themselves if necessary. If society votes to protect itself, then that is the will of the people.

And, I think it's hilarious that you say "The US is more regulated than the EU in my opinion." but seem to overlook the fact that most of Europe banned smoking in bars and restaurants a couple of years ago. ;)
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Er, I don't think he needs a rebuttal. He already pretty much said we should leave it the hell alone and let the market decide. Have you been reading this thread?
 
Here we are again debating public smoking bans.

Smoking bans were initiated based on the foundation of worker safety, not public exposure. Yet, no limits were set on exposure by OSHA, ACGIH, or NIOSH like they are for all other hazardous substances. So, for example, a worker can be exposed to 100 ppm of trichloroethylene (carcinogen), but NO tobacco smoke.

These bans based on worker safety were obviously a back-door approach to banning smoking in public. The public in general did not raise a stink about it because most people did not want to deal with cigarette smoke in restaurants, etc. anymore anyway. This is proof that the average person is not capable of setting aside personal agendas when it comes to deciding public policy, at the expense of reduced freedoms and increased government control.
 
menschmaschine said:
This is proof that the average person is not capable of setting aside personal agendas when it comes to deciding public policy, at the expense of reduced freedoms and increased government control.
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Exactly! When the vote went through in Ohio, it seemed pretty much regarded as a poll on whether you smoked or not, rather than a vote on civil liberty.
 
Correct My Gnomey friend. I believe smoking should be left alone. Don't solve problems that don't exist. If the demand for non-smoking establishments actually exists, then private owners will fill that need (like in my area).

I don't know all of our country's ills, but I am more informed and care more than about 99% of the population.

I am for the lowering of taxes on everything. We are way over-taxed IMO and believe we would be bringing in more tax revenue by lowering rates.

Drinking and driving pose a REAL threat to public safety. Smoking and especially second hand smoke MAY cause a threat and is easily avoidable if you are afraid for your health.

Try living in Europe sometime, then tell me we are the land of the free. Europeans (and those from the Isles) will laugh when you tell them about getting sued or the things we can't do here. Sure they can't have a personal arsenal, but when you live in the concentrated communities that they do (and have a long history of wars), public safety concerns change.

Also, I still don't agree with their ban on smoking. I fail to see how justification of bad ideas makes a bad idea a good idea.

BTW, still waiting for a logical rebuttal.
 
olllllo said:
Where can smoking be restricted then? Hospitals? Planes? Busses? Prisons? Arenas? Malls? Movie Theaters? Concert Halls
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I am a smoker. I support non smoking areas such as hospitals, where the sense of smell is an important diagnostic tool. I support it in aeroplanes, where there is a captive audience. also cinemas, concert halls etc......Bars are a different matter. There are plenty of them and we get to make our choice as to which one to visit.
 
There exists a fallacy where the no smoking brigade paints smokers as being ignorant, stupid, and inconsiderate to the rights of others. Well, we are just the same people as the non smokers, except that we smoke.......Ah what the hell, I just can't be bothered.
 
I would like to state that I am fine with the government regulating what goes on in government owned or financed buildings. I just don't think it is right for them to enter the private domain.
 
We just came up with an idea in my office....

To be considered a cigar bar or smoke shop here you have to have X% of your profit be from smoking related purchases or sales. So the bars should just sell cigarettes and offer a free beer with every purchase. $4 per cig, but it comes with a free beer :D
 
I think we should ban people from talking loudly in restaurants. It depresses me and harms my mental health.........And kids! Get them off my fookin' lawn!
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
We just came up with an idea in my office....

To be considered a cigar bar or smoke shop here you have to have X% of your profit be from smoking related purchases or sales. So the bars should just sell cigarettes and offer a free beer with every purchase. $4 per cig, but it comes with a free beer :D
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that is whats in the NY law . If you have a walk in humidor and I believe 20% of your sales in tobacco then you are considered a cigar bar and the smoking ban does not apply
 
I don't see what's wrong with banning smoking tobacco in bars.

I expect to go outside the bar, when I want to smoke.;)
 
Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:
I am a smoker. I support non smoking areas such as hospitals, where the sense of smell is an important diagnostic tool. I support it in aeroplanes, where there is a captive audience. also cinemas, concert halls etc......Bars are a different matter. There are plenty of them and we get to make our choice as to which one to visit.
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Would you oppose it if someone started a special airline called "Smokes In the Sky", and made all their flights smoking flights, and it was advertised as such?

I don't think the quantity or breadth of choice is the matter. It's whether or not the consumer is made aware of the "hazard" beforehand. Perhaps, as a compromise with the anti-smoking crowd, we could forgo the bans and just make everyone put a "smoking allowed here" sign on the doors...for those especially stupid people who don't realize that it's a smoking establishment when they walk in the door and are met with a wall o' smoke.
 
Perhaps, as a compromise with the anti-smoking crowd, we could forgo the bans and just make everyone put a "smoking allowed here" sign on the doors...for those especially stupid people who don't realize that it's a smoking establishment when they walk in the door and are met with a wall o' smoke.
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That is exactly the way bars that permit smoking market themselves here in PA (the ones around me, anyhow.) And as most of the places that I frequent are also restaurants, most all of them are smoke-free to begin with, save one or two venues.
 
lamarguy said:
Would anyone else like to sign the "sky is falling" petition? :D

SkyIsFalling.jpg
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It's interesting that your only response is to say "we live in a democracy, so we don't have to worry!" and mock people who are concerned about property rights with cartoons...and not actually address the substance of the issue. :rolleyes:
 
Evan! said:
Would you oppose it if someone started a special airline called "Smokes In the Sky", and made all their flights smoking flights, and it was advertised as such?
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Of course not. But I do realise that there are financial considerations in such an enterprise that wold make such an airline very unlikely. I'm trying to live in the real world here just for once in my lifetime. ;)
 
lamarguy said:
Poor analogy. We're not talking about 5% of the population that happens to be allergic to shellfish. We're talking about 60+ percent that has voted to ban smoking in enclosed places (restaurants, bars, etc.).
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So your not really concern with public heath, your saying this is an issue of Majority rule, right? So, if next year the Majority of people ruled that your religion (Or not being affilated to a religion) was illegal, and offenders would be deported or imprisoned, you would be fine with it? If it's a matter of how much of the population is affected, then what amount of the population makes a difference for you to enact a law...assuming 5% isn't enough? :D


lamarguy said:
In case you haven't noticed, many states and counties have passed car emissions laws mandating the cars run "clean". So, yes, we've voted to protect the environment from car emissions too.
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So you would be fine with smoking in bars and resurants, assuming they had proper ventilation, or they had filtration means to keep the tobacco emissions down to something akin to say car emissions right?
 
olllllo said:
Logical rebuttal to what?
BTW that is not to say your premise had logic and the onus is on anyone.
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I am just waiting for a reason to pass a smoking ban that is based on something other than "you are killing me with that stinky smoke."

.....................

Wow. Great job Lamarguy, you are the coolest :rolleyes:

BTW, still waiting....
 
olllllo said:
Logical rebuttal to what?
BTW that is not to say your premise had logic and the onus is on anyone.
Click to expand...

I am just waiting for a reason to pass a smoking ban that is based on something other than "you are killing me with that stinky smoke."

.....................

Wow. Great job Lamarguy, you are the coolest :rolleyes:

BTW, still waiting....
 

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