NB Surly Furious Clone not turning out so well

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cscade

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I brewed NB's furious clone a while back, and I'm very disappointed in how it's turning out. I should note that this was done on not at all my normal process. I'm between brew systems, so this was a 3 gallon partial stovetop boil, extract, topped up to kit volume of 5 gallons.

Here's the actual specs, as I brewed it;

- 3 gallon partial boil, extract with specialty grains
- top off to 5 gallons
- OG 1.064 (target)
- 1.2L starter, Wyeast 1335 British Ale II
- Primary:
- Pitch 68f
- Carboy-shake oxygenation
- Held 68f for 5 days
- Ramp to 70f for 2 days
- Ramp to 72f for 7 days
- Lower to 68f and dry hop for 7 days
- FG 1.010 (recipe did not provide target)
- Force carbonate at refrigeration temps

It has now been on the gas for 3 weeks. I normally start to see acceptable results in 2 weeks, with great beers at 3 weeks. Not this one. This one tastes and smells green, like fresh mown grass. Very vegetal, but not what I would categorize as hop vegetal. This is more flaw-vegetal if that makes sense. The flaw is present to a degree that's unpleasant.

NB turns over a lot of orders, so I don't think this is old ingredients. I think this is on my end. The thing that is weird to me, is that this flavor/aroma was not present (that I noticed) on the way into the keg. At the point the beer was just young but otherwise tasted fine. This green quality appeared after being put on gas.

Thoughts?
 
That recipe has always scared me. The dry hop is like 8oz right? There is the source of your veggies. Sure is frustrating to make such an expensive beer and not have it turn out.
 
There is a Ton of dry hopping in this recipe, yes. However like I said I really didn't notice this on the way into the keg it only seemed to be present after being on the gas. I'll do more detailed tasting this evening and post some notes.
 
7753-surly-furious-clone.jpg


Tasting notes;

Thick cream-colored head gives way to thin foam on top with good lacing. In the nose there is significant hop aroma, surrounded by the irritating green smell I described above. I can't pin it to a particular vegetable. It's not corn, or really grass either. Perhaps it is just a hop vegetation compound brought out by the carbonation. Bittering is firm on the front of the tongue, running to very firm as you swallow. Seems a little over the top compared to the Furious I have had in cans. Bitterness clears the palette relatively quickly for how much of it there is, leaving another little burst of the green flavor/smell, although at this end it's more reminiscent of young beer.

Perhaps this still just needs more time, but I'm disappointed by that. I thought for a beer this hop-forward, I'd want it to peak sooner than 4+ weeks in kegs.
 
How long was it on the hops? I'm about to do this beer and want to avoid getting the same problem you had. Maybe I'll cut the dry hops in half and add them to flameout.
 
Dry-hopping was 7 days at 68f, which should have been just right I would think. I will sometimes go as long as 10 days, but not with this kind of mass.

I'm still not convinced that it's really the hops.

Are you saying use half the dry hops at flameout and half to dry hop? That may not be a bad idea.

How long was it on the hops? I'm about to do this beer and want to avoid getting the same problem you had. Maybe I'll cut the dry hops in half and add them to flameout.
 
Not sure of others recipes, but that isn't anywhere close to my clone. The Amarillo and Simcoe should be added in about .5oz increments from 20 minutes to flameout. I then have two ounces Simcoe, one ounce Amarillo, and one ounce Ahtanum for dry hopping. My recipe was a modification of the Midwest Supply kit. 8 ounces of dry hops would worry me....That sure seems like a ton of hops!
 
Take this for what it is worth. I dryhopped bottles of PBR with a few hop pellets. 12 different varieties, didn't matter which. Never got over the aroma/flavor, and it may be similar to what you describe. I attributed it to using way too much for the bottle. I though I was adding a gram or two but could have been adding up to 4 grams. 4 grams/bottle is in excess of 7oz per 5 gallons. If you want to use that many hops, this might be a situation where you add/remove them sequentially. Dry Hop #1 for 3 days, remove, dryhop #2 for 3 days, remove, etc.

I haven't tried this method, but it may be worth considering to reduce that unfavorable character?
 
I brewed this kit a while back and had similar results. Very disappointing when spending that much money. I originally attributed the error to it being my second AG batch. However, my first and third batches were fine. Not to mention you seem to be experiencing a similar profile. I am having trouble emptying the the keg because I keep going for my other, better brews first.
 
I'm having this same issue now. Did it ever mellow out?

I dry hopped in muslin bags to avoid massive beer loss, kegged it and it has the same flavor you describe. I guess I'll just let it sit and see if it will mellow out
 
Apologies for being so late to my own party, I had no idea this thread was still active.

In truth, no. It never got better. If anything it was remarkably stable - which in this case is a bad thing :)

I never did figure out what the problem really was, but I certainly wouldn't recommend the kit to anyone. I think perhaps the ingredients are ok, but the process to apply them needs some significant revision from what the instructions provide.
 
Not that I have done this, but this recipe might be better off with split additions of dry hops and for shorter contact time. 8oz dry hop is a lot for 5 gallons. When I made this beer I did not purchase the kit (out of stock) and I used 2 oz for a dryhop, total. I understood that this wouldn't be "the same beer".

If you want to use the full 8oz, you might consider taking half and adding it to the primary when fermentation has died down (when exactly is up to you), wait 3-4 days, rack off hops to secondary vessel (carboy or keg) and dry hop with remaining hops for another 3-4 days. Rack to package (bottle or keg) and serve. I've read this may help reduce the amount of green and actually might increase the aromas you'd get from just a single 8oz addition. A short extraction time is all that is needed (in fact this time frame is when I smell the most from any dryhop I've done) and it is possible that longer times may extract more unfavorable hop material, YMMV. Doing as the instructions suggest (vague) and I would expect to extract more of the unfavorables, which I think you may be getting. Maybe some slight oxidation is also playing a role? But overall, I would agree with cscade...I love that NB provides the recipe on their instructions but it could use some revision for helpful hints.
 
I think Im going to make Furious-as Ive never been able to have it before , but Im going to splitt the dryhopp in primary then rack to keg with the other half of hops and naturally carbonate it,or maybe just keg it with the hops right away on gas. Thing is if I go to my lhbs for 2.5 gal batch worth of ingredience which I may have to subb a few things, its going to cost me the same for a 2.5 gallon batch as would a NB furious 5 gallon kit, so now I just gotta wait till they are not sold out of kits anymore at NB which Ive never seen them instock since Ive ever looked,ever. Midwests version is different and I dont want to do that one although its a little cheaper. If I can get the kit it would be nice to split the kit making seperate 2.5 gal batches and bottle one half and keg the other half.
 
I also did the extract kit and had similar, disappointing results. My brew tasted nothing like the real thing, and had an annoying ester and perfume-like taste in the finish. I used a 1.2 liter starter of Wyeast 1335 in a 5 gallon batch and aerated with pure O2. I also used this yeast in another kit from NB, the Dawson's Multigrain Red, and got the same annoying off flavors in the finish, though to a much lesser degree, so I can't attribute it to the Furious dry hop blend. Both brews were fermented at a controlled temperature of 66 degrees F, and were brewed with 100% distilled water. I've forced my way through most of the Furious, but the rest is getting dumped because I need the bottles. The red is at least drinkable. I guess the Beer Gods intended for me to buy Furious rather than make it. Luckily it's readily available to me...
 
I brewed a red IPA which had what one taster described as a "celery" flavor--I think the ferment started out too warm. It was Wyeast 1056. Dry-hopped with Amarillo. Not what I would describe as phenolic, but maybe esters?

I've been more careful about cooling the wort down to 65-70F before siphoning to fermenter.
 
I did the NB Surly Furious all grain last year and it came out great. I followed the instructions and dry hopped just as they said to and it was really good. I'm not going to say it was indistinguishable from Furious but everyone who tried it said it tasted very much like Furious, even if I didn't tell them it was a clone.

I'm not trying to sell anybody on it, and I don't know if it was an all grain vs extract issue (though I don't know how it could be) but I can at least say that I was happy with this kit.
 
One question though to those who thought it was too vegetal. Are you very familiar with Furious? I've always thought it was somewhat vegetal itself so it's possible that the problem is that the clone is a little too accurate.
 
I also did the extract kit and had similar, disappointing results. My brew tasted nothing like the real thing, and had an annoying ester and perfume-like taste in the finish. I used a 1.2 liter starter of Wyeast 1335 in a 5 gallon batch and aerated with pure O2. I also used this yeast in another kit from NB, the Dawson's Multigrain Red, and got the same annoying off flavors in the finish, though to a much lesser degree, so I can't attribute it to the Furious dry hop blend. Both brews were fermented at a controlled temperature of 66 degrees F, and were brewed with 100% distilled water. I've forced my way through most of the Furious, but the rest is getting dumped because I need the bottles. The red is at least drinkable. I guess the Beer Gods intended for me to buy Furious rather than make it. Luckily it's readily available to me...

I have an update. I was just about to dump the remaining twelve bottles of Furious, when I fortuitously decided to give it one last try. What a transformation! Not quite Jesus turning water into wine, but up there. Not only is the sickening off-flavor gone, it actually now tastes like Furious! So note to self: The next time I make Furious (and there now will be a next time, though it will be the all-grain version,) leave it undisturbed in the bottle for two months before even trying it. I also sampled the Chocolate Milk stout again, and can no longer detect the off flavor. The Red and the SS Minnow still have hints of it, but they seem to be getting better with time...
 
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