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Skunkyhops

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Im sick and tired of this country being ran by a bunch of lying, money hungry, and corrupt politicians. This country was founded by the people for the people if im not mistaken and when did any of "us", the people, have any say in this economic stimulus crap? When are we the people going to stand up and say to the "big bad government" that we are tired of taking it in the ass all the time. I dont know about you all but i think that it is ABSURD that gas prices are as high as they are. We are seeing oil companies like Exxon making the biggest profits ever seen, and yet somehow the price of gas continues to go up??? The people who founded this country stood for something, we broke away from Britain for a reason right? And yet year after year we all sit here watching the government grow bigger and bigger and spend more and more money that we already dont have. Here we are looking to elect another president and all the democrat candidates have some form of a universal healthcare program funded by the GOVERNMENT! The government f'd up medicare/medicade (whatever it is) and social security already and you think they can handle providing healthcare for the entire country? Are these people serious? Do you all not watch the news? Have you not seen how badly this idea has worked in other countries? Im one of the 40 million who dont have healthcare and I DONT WANT IT FOR FREE! They are slowly taking away freedoms that have made America such a great country for so many years, telling us, the people, that its to make/keep us "safer". Like setting up road blocks and stopping every car to do DUI checks, sure they will catch a drunk or two but does this not remind anybody else of Nazi Germany? The S.S. asking to see your papers? When are we going to realize that WE know whats best for US. I dont need the government to provide me with health care, I dont need the state of California to control the temperature in my house! Im paying the bill ill keep it however fckn cold/hot i want it to be thank you very much! Im really sorry about the rant but i dont think im the only person that feels this way about the government and the absurd spending and i wanted to remind everybody that this is the peoples country, and we CAN do something about it.
As Peter from Family Guy would say "That America is what grinds my gears!"
 

BuffaloSabresBrewer

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Skunkyhops said:
when did any of "us", the people, have any say in this economic stimulus crap? When are we the people going to stand up and say to the "big bad government" that we are tired of taking it in the ass all the time.
When you voted.
"I didnt vote for Bush".
Well you voted for Senate and House and theyll have the final say. And your vote has more of an impact for those elections IMO. We may not vote on every issue but we chose who represents us. Voters need to do their own research on candidates and stop relying on the news. Dont like what the politicians are doing? You put them there.
 

brewhead

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does anyone realize that amendment 16 was never fully radified in the us? there fore it is not a law - which makes us all good little sheep
 

z987k

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brewhead said:
does anyone realize that amendment 16 was never fully radified in the us? there fore it is not a law - which makes us all good little sheep
got a reputable source for that? I'd love to read it.

And by ratified, do you mean wasn't ratified by all the states at the time? Because it doesn't have to be. 75% of the states, congress and the president.
 

z987k

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Fish said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_pr...ts#Sixteenth_Amendment_ratification_arguments


"One argument that has been raised several times (and always ruled meritless) suggests that the Sixteenth Amendment was not properly ratified.
ok, spelling mistakes and minor things like that. I mean if you're very strong against income tax, well ok this give you something, but seriously I'm in the boat with the Sec of State at the time. It's ratified.

BTW wikipedia, not the most reputable source.
 
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Skunkyhops

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BuffaloSabresBrewer said:
When you voted.
"I didnt vote for Bush".
Well you voted for Senate and House and theyll have the final say. And your vote has more of an impact for those elections IMO. We may not vote on every issue but we chose who represents us. Voters need to do their own research on candidates and stop relying on the news. Dont like what the politicians are doing? You put them there.
And this is the big problem that i talked about in the first line of my rant the person who you vote to elect changes the second he/she is elected. Thats why I am so fed up with the politicians. They are willing to say anything to our faces to get elected and once in office the "change" they all talk about never happens! It makes me sick watching a "political debate" and the leading candidates can do nothing but throw muddy lies at one another. Just to get elected. I dont know about you but I have seen better high school debates! When are we going to realize that the only way we can solve these "issues" that Americans are worried about is to throw away the parties and the divisions that are set up. If we all work together to solve these problems, maybe we could finally SOLVE some problems. Im tired of Democrats being afraid of saying that a Republican had a good idea and im tired of Republicans doing the same to Democrats. The fighting and arguing gets us as a nation no where. Look at the HBT boards as an example of all these people working together, giving input and advice and how well the board runs. If I have a problem with my beer I post a thread and within an hour I have 5 or 10 replies and a solution to the problem. When we work together we are able to accomplish much more. Im tired of so many people being so closed minded when it comes to hearing an opinion from the opposing party. Just because it comes from the other party its automatically shot down and dismissd as being wrong. Like I said earlier this is OUR country and we can do something about all the B.S. Oh yea the thing that really grinds my gears most is all the people that talk bad about Bush 43 or any politician for that matter and didnt VOTE! IF YOU DIDNT VOTE I DONT WANNA HEAR CHIT!
 

Fish

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z987k said:
take 1/10th the money they're spending on the war and spend it improving (roads bridges, infrastructure, etc.)and creating jobs in this country now that would stimulate the economy.

Quoted for agreement.
 

brewhead

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without thumping my soapbox any more than necessary in a beer related forum - i would say even if you are mildly intrigued - enlighten yourselves. the information is there. also rent, buy or view "freedom to fascism" ...worth the 2 hours of your life
 
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Skunkyhops

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Ive never really looked into that much I just found the givemeliberty.org site really interesting when it comes to the 16th. If its so obvious that it was illegally ratified i dont understand why this isnt brought up even more? I would like to see some stats as well I know that a lot of people lose that battle with the IRS like Willie Nelson
 

shafferpilot

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I for one, have always voted. I sometimes miss the smaller local vote days, but always hit the presidential ones. However, I've never voted for president. I go, I vote on the local issues, I vote for local politicians that actually do represent my feelings on issues. BUT, I have yet to see any presidential candidate that even came remotely close to representing me. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that my "non-vote" doesn't actually count. In a perfect world, enough non-votes would prevent anyone from being elected. That would be ideal IMHO.

The best thing for our country would be the dissolving of the federal government in its entirety. They've never done anything for me, and I don't see any point in them. Security? I can handle myself if free market existed in the firearms industry. Social Security? I intend on taking care of myself as far as money is concerned, and if my gramma or parents run out of money, it's my spiritual, moral obligation to take care of them. Federal subsidies? If more than a quarter of my income wasn't being stolen by the feds, I could handle significantly higher LOCAL taxes to pay for neighborhood improvements, road construction, etc. Foreign policy? What the Hill are we doing messing around with other country's business? I don't care if the middle eastern countries want to blow each other up! Let them!! They don't hate us because we have different beliefs!! They hate us because we keep sticking our noses into their business! The FCC? I think we all know that they are full of it from one end to the other! Federal Grants? All too often millions are spent on rediculously crazy ideas. The research that has merit is funded privately, and would be privately funded more regularly if the government wasn't taking SO much of the money already. Etc, etc, etc, etc.

I know this will never happen, I'm just speaking what I think. Call me a traitor if you want to. Shoot an email off to the FBI for taking my first amendment rights seriously. But don't just sit back and let stuff happen.

Perhaps enough non-votes might get those idiots in washington to at least start asking why the non-votes exist in the first place.
 

McKBrew

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I really can't understand why some of you are so damn anti-government. America not perfect by a long shot, but I'd really like someone to point out which government in this world is better.

People in some European countries get the shxt taxed out them, some places have terrorist attacks on a frequent basis, some people are getting exterminated because of their race or religion.

If America is so screwed up, if our rights don't exist anymore then why in the hell are people willing to walk across deserts, swim rivers, climb fences or hop on homemade rafts to get here?

While not perfect our federal goverment has provided us with all kinds of services, (roads, parks, schools, and well trained military to protect us when we bitch about how screwed up everything is), and if anyone really thinks life would be better without a government you might be guilty of smoking something that the government is intruding on your right to use.

Edit: Hope I didn't go too far on this response.....
 
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Skunkyhops

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+ 1 on everything shafferpilot

and Mckbrew im not saying i want zero government im not for anarchy and i dont think anybody else here is either, im frustrated with my government and the media guilting people like you into believing that you need the government and they are looking out for your best interests. I dont know about you but 3+ dollars a gallon isnt really in my best interest.

oh and the schools, parks, roads im pretty sure are paid for with tax money that WE all pay
 

McKBrew

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I don't like gas prices either. I don't know how much blame I want to place on the federal government for that one. Oil companies are raking in the profits here. I also think think the consumer (including myself) is partly at fault for gas prices being where they are. Obviously it hasn't had as big an effect on driving habits, vehicle choices, prices for consumer goods, etc... as everyone thought. Many of us haven't changed anything in order to compensate for the higher prices.

The oil companies have found that even though we are dis-satisfied with prices we still are buying record amounts of fuel at ridiculous prices.
 

brewhead

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MUST RESIST..........damnit i just can't.

I really can't understand why some of you are so damn anti-government. America not perfect by a long shot, but I'd really like someone to point out which government in this world is better.
when you hear people like myself or shafferpilot talking and we sound anti-government....don't be so quick to dismiss us as kooks, crazies, or unpatriotic. what i am advocating and what shafferpilot seems to be advocating and what a lot of ppl around this land of ours are advocating is WAY WAY WAY WAY less govt. president x isn't the answer. from a guy who didn't grow up here in america and traveled most of his teens, there are good and bad to every country. however, to say that this one seems to be the best doesn't make it the best or that it could be better.

People in some European countries get the shxt taxed out them, some places have terrorist attacks on a frequent basis, some people are getting exterminated because of their race or religion.
that is not a valid point to use when discussing what can be done to fix our broken system. because there is a threat of a worse condition by no means indicates we should settle for something less.

If America is so screwed up, if our rights don't exist anymore then why in the hell are people willing to walk across deserts, swim rivers, climb fences or hop on homemade rafts to get here?
for $$ most of it being tax free

While not perfect our federal goverment has provided us with all kinds of services, (roads, parks, schools, and well trained military to protect us when we bitch about how screwed up everything is), and if anyone really thinks life would be better without a government you might be guilty of smoking something that the government is intruding on your right to use.
comunist countries provide parks, roads, shcools and train their military as well.

life would be better with about half of what we have now. somewhere along the line we decided as a nation that it was too messy, too hard, too problematic to take care of ourselves on a personal, comunal, local, or state level and decided it would be much easier if someone else handled all these things....who could we empower with such responsibility? ahh let's get big daddy govt to do these things for us. and so we have built a machine that is so big - it will not turn.

voting? your american duty? pfft voting is not your american duty. your duty as an american is to make sure govt is kept in it's place and to make sure this country is being run BY the people and FOR the people. anything shy of that is unacceptable. you parrot this "if you don't vote then don't complain" because that was pounded into your head from previous generations perhaps when voting actually counted for something. well i say i have every reason if not more to voice my angst, my disgust, to complain as you say, because you guys are voting these asshats into power. there are no reps there are no dems there are only liars and thieves. and that people are easily swayed by their spin is inconceivable to me.

so when you hear contention amongst the ranks. don't dismiss us. it is contention amongst the ranks that got this country started in the first place. and i will tell you my honest feeling is that your children and children's children will witness another revolution in this country. we can't continue this path much longer without inwardly colapsing.

i appreciate your flag waiving. i have one on my fromt porch as well. and yes the govt is infringing on my right ot smoke pot

nd yes this post is related to beer, for while our forfathers were swilling beers at the local pub they were also planning revolution
 

McKBrew

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I knew it was coming....

Okay, you don't like things the way they are, got it. But it seems like they only way to change things to satisfy your vision of the USA is outright revolution. I'm sorry, but I don't think it's that bad yet.

I'm not saying that you guys are totally off-base, but if you aren't actually advocating a second revolution then what are your solutions and how are you trying to implement them?

Just saying, "I want the federal government to go away" isn't going to cut it. It's totally unrealistic to even think that it's a possibility. And to say that the federal government has done absolutely nothing for you is a load of bull.

Seriously how do you fix it, short of removing it?

Edit: Guess I should have read everything, you are really talking about a second revolution. Give me a heads up before it happens so I can stay out of the way.
 

DeathBrewer

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is it really too much to ask for a president that is at least somewhat honest? hell, i'd settle for a candidate...instead it's just a big game. the issues discussed are not important, it's fueled by knocking the other guy down. it's not who debates the issues the best or who you support the most, its who has the most money or who you hate the least.

even candidates that seem somewhat forthright don't do well in the polls and get knocked down by the big guys.

and we seem to have no control over it. what are we supposed to do? things are just going to get worse.

i'd like to be able to vote someone into office that will actually have a positive impact. instead even when they are in office they are just fighting to get re-elected, with no plan or hope in mind for the future. it's frustrating and there's no end in sight.

i don't necessarily want a revolution, but i think it's inevitable. it could even be healthy to let some of those fat cats know we actually care and are willing to do something to protect our country and our freedom.

anyway, this tax refund is a BAD MOVE. spend the money on something useful...don't influence people to spend money on junk just to drive our economy, that's retarded. we're not getting anything special with this...it just puts money in peoples pockets and makes them forget how horrible things are for a little while until the blow it all.

yes we have certain freedoms in the country, that doesn't mean we can't make things better. that doesn't mean somethings don't NEED to be improved. that doesn't mean we're not slowly heading down the crapper. i'd like to see ONE good decision...c'mon, show me something.

/rant
 

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It sounds wrong on the surface, I know, to complain about exhorbitant taxes and then complain about a rebate in the same sentence. But allow me to explain better:

We're still going to pay exhorbitant taxes rebate or not. The huge spending going on hasn't been changed at all.

The rebate is NOT free money and there are definitely some dangerous strings attached. It's money that is being charged on credit by businesses and people (mostly overseas) that will be repaid with tax money. At the rate we are going now, we will have to pay back thousands and thousands of dollars in a few years, so that we can have $600 today...

Will this money stimulate the economy? Sure.... today. Maybe for the next couple months so that the republican party doesn't have to answer to the recession when election time rolls around. But does it help at all in the medium run? I have my doubts. Certainly not in the long run!

I must say, that the very last thing in the world that I want to see, is America in a revolution. That would ruin my life for sure. But we are teetering on financial collapse, and our current federal government is not doing anything to stop it, or even slow it down. Someone has to do some prioritizing, and they need to do it fast.

What can I do about it? I don't know. The best I can do is try to push people into questioning the status quo. And show up to vote, but refuse to accept the lessor of two evils.
 

brewhead

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but refuse to accept the lessor of two evils.
and there in lies the rub.

mccain isn't the answer and neither is hillary or obama or any of the other candidates. so if you are voting, what other option do you really have besides the lesser of two evils? which just so happens to be evil, none the less.
 

Surly

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Sounds to me like there are a lot of people here that are ripe for actually running for public office.

Try city, county or state office. Hell, school boards and library boards are in need of your ideas.

Go out there and actually learn and work for change.
 

EdWort

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BuffaloSabresBrewer said:
Ill thank the government for the co2 tank and regulator regardless of whose money it was originally.
You could thank the HBT'ers who actually will pay for it. I'm sure there are plenty who will not get a dime, while there are people who pay no tax who will get hundreds of dollars anyway.

It's basically Robin Hood income redistribution.
 

shafferpilot

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Gammon N Beer said:
Sounds to me like there are a lot of people here that are ripe for actually running for public office.

Try city, county or state office. Hell, school boards and library boards are in need of your ideas.

Go out there and actually learn and work for change.
I hate the sound of that 'cause I'm a selfish American that wants to persue my own interests, but I have absolutely NO argument against it.
 

Surly

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shafferpilot said:
I hate the sound of that 'cause I'm a selfish American that wants to persue my own interests, but I have absolutely NO argument against it.
At least you are honest about it.

Ya know, somebody has to step up and actually do the hard work that needs to be done.

In our area we have elected positions that are going unfilled. These are not necessarily the partisan jobs, but rather the ones that make the schools run, libraries operate and get snow removal budgeted.

It gets real old always hearing how bad we are doing. We get paid little or nothing to do it but we do.
 

DeathBrewer

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Gammon N Beer said:
Ya know, somebody has to step up and actually do the hard work that needs to be done.

....

It gets real old always hearing how bad we are doing. We get paid little or nothing to do it but we do.
and therein lies the problem, especially for a position where you are constantly under the public eye, making difficult decisions on a daily basis, being scrutinized at every turn and for what? a small cut and a hard time.

that's why we have so many megalomaniacs running for office.

i personally wouldn't want the job, but what right-minded individual would?...unless they are willing to go through all that to truly make a difference. unfortunately, they are few and far between.
 

brewhead

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Gammon N Beer said:
At least you are honest about it.

Ya know, somebody has to step up and actually do the hard work that needs to be done.

It gets real old always hearing how bad we are doing. We get paid little or nothing to do it but we do.
it gets real old watching people swallow the bs flowing from the people in power. are you REALLY that complacient? sure they start off good. everyone wants a change. but if you took a drink everytime you heard a dem or rep say change - you'd go into catastrophic liver failure before you'll ever see any change. no one is giving you something new, something fresh - it's a rehash of the last 4 to 8 years depending upon which delusional period of our history you want to take a look at. stay the course? bs!

our govt, our system of govt is broken beyond repair and as with most things irreversibly broken its high time to take out the trash. the candidates are middle of the road candidates. the only way the pendulum swings is from the extremes. i can no longer in good concience vote for ppl who were a part of breaking the system and who profit from it's brokeness. nor would i want to be a part of that corruption. how corrupt is our system that it takes millions of $$ just to run for office? no money - no position.

i really like the way our forefathers did it. they, the common man, ousted the distasteful and disgusting and suplanted their own ideals of govt. it's lasted this long but we cannot continue on this way forever. maybe it's time to wipe the slate clean once again. they voted with their very life's blood. rosa parks voted with silence and defiance against the status quo. both sparked revolution. that's action that i will strive for. that is the results i will target.

and if that means i'm labeled as a kook, or crazy - well then so be it. color me crazy.
 

Surly

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brewhead said:
it gets real old watching people swallow the bs flowing from the people in power. are you REALLY that complacient? sure they start off good. everyone wants a change. but if you took a drink everytime you heard a dem or rep say change - you'd go into catastrophic liver failure before you'll ever see any change. no one is giving you something new, something fresh - it's a rehash of the last 4 to 8 years depending upon which delusional period of our history you want to take a look at. stay the course? bs!

our govt, our system of govt is broken beyond repair and as with most things irreversibly broken its high time to take out the trash. the candidates are middle of the road candidates. the only way the pendulum swings is from the extremes. i can no longer in good concience vote for ppl who were a part of breaking the system and who profit from it's brokeness. nor would i want to be a part of that corruption. how corrupt is our system that it takes millions of $$ just to run for office? no money - no position.

i really like the way our forefathers did it. they, the common man, ousted the distasteful and disgusting and suplanted their own ideals of govt. it's lasted this long but we cannot continue on this way forever. maybe it's time to wipe the slate clean once again. they voted with their very life's blood. rosa parks voted with silence and defiance against the status quo. both sparked revolution. that's action that i will strive for. that is the results i will target.

and if that means i'm labeled as a kook, or crazy - well then so be it. color me crazy.

brewhead....my post had nothing partisan in it. Reread it. Then, YOU step up to the plate, like the forefoather YOU mention and deal with problems at YOUR local level.

My point is simple. It is time for people to step up and run for these nonpartisan local offices. It takes more than a President and a Congress to run this place.
 

brewhead

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in closing i will ask you this:

where woud we be if our forefathers had of tried to change their government from the inside out?
 

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Above there were some that are calling for less government and they are right. It sometimes helps me to think that my taxes go for defense and space travel and not for welfare. The "crazy revolutionaries" in Philadelphia 1776 also believed that if a gov't became too corrupt it is the responsibility for the people to overthrow that gov't and start over. That being said...we are not there right now and not even close.

Quote from above
"communist countries provide parks, roads, shcools and train their military as well."


Josef Stalin killed 5 million of his own people to maintain control of the population. He also made Moscow into a great city and built the worlds most extensive, expensive and beautiful underground subway system in the world. Many Russian's died building these tunnels, but more were killed for having a different opinion than the USSR. This is an example of what the founding father were saying the populace must watch for and be willing to overthrow.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Winston Churchill

Lastly,
If you were having this conversation from China all of our remarks would have us beaten, tied up, kangaroo courted, and disappeared. Enjoy your freedom, but remember that you are free and you live in the most developed and significant experiment in human history. Its not perfect but it is better than anything else.

As far as the 150 billion $. I'll take my money back...thank you. But how cool would it have been if the government announced that they would give the 150 Billion $ to the first corporation that sells 5 million cars in a year in the US that get 50 MPG and has a 5 star crash rating and uses less than 10 % oil in the fuel. Without the government we would not have the railroads.
 

McKBrew

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olllllo said:
Getting OT people.
Understand Warning! As much as I would like to continue, I'll save my opinions for the next political rant.
 

BuffaloSabresBrewer

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Now I may be going out on a limb here but oh well. Nothing is more American than hating taxes. But I for one wouldnt mind paying out my ass in taxes if things were handled like like are in other countries. Tuition payed for by taxes would lead to many more educated people than can actually contribute to society and our economy. Health care for everyone payed for with taxes. You mean paying $130 for a bottle that cost 4 cents in raw materials to make (yes I know research costs $$$ but still thats a markup). Im not trying to dis capitalism or discourage entrepreneurship with crazy taxes Im just saying some vital services maybe better for all if they werent privatized.
I have always wanted to start my own country.
 

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EdWort said:
You could thank the HBT'ers who actually will pay for it. I'm sure there are plenty who will not get a dime, while there are people who pay no tax who will get hundreds of dollars anyway. It's basically Robin Hood income redistribution.
From Forbes:
The measure would send rebates to some 111 million people, including roughly 35 million families who don't make enough to pay income taxes. Individuals with adjusted gross income of $75,000 and couples making $150,000 would get rebates equal to the taxes they paid, up to $600 for individuals and $1,200 for couples. Those making more than that would see their rebate go down by 5 percent of every dollar of income over the limits.

Taxpayers would get at least $300, even if they paid less than that in taxes - or $600 for couples. That's also the case for those who don't pay income taxes but earn at least $3,000.

All eligible people would get an additional $300 per child.

In the Senate, Baucus' proposal removes the income caps and would send rebates to some 20 million senior citizens not covered by the House plan because they don't have income.

It also extends unemployment payments for 13 weeks for those whose benefits have run out, with 26 more weeks available in states with the highest jobless rates.
 

BuffaloSabresBrewer

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Ya Ed I kind of misunderstood that comment. The only reason Ill be getting a check is because I pay taxes. I said regardless of whose money it was originally because the way I look at it it was my money in the first place.
Taking a higher percentage tax from people with higher incomes and a lower percentage from the poor is more Robin Hoodish but thats not what were talking about.
 

shafferpilot

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Now that I think about it, there's no way that I could ever be elected to anything. Ya see, I've led a checkered life. For me, that means that I have understanding for people in different walks. But in the media/public eye, I'll always be a renegade psycho criminal.
 

shafferpilot

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Yep, cause I didn't screw the little guy out of millions of dollars, or bankrupt companies, or accept bribes from a variety of interest groups. I'm the horrible criminal that smoked pot. And yes, I did inhale.... a lot. That pretty much seals the deal since I don't have any high powered friends to make it all disapear;)
 

Buford

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Gammon N Beer said:
Sounds to me like there are a lot of people here that are ripe for actually running for public office.

Try city, county or state office. Hell, school boards and library boards are in need of your ideas.

Go out there and actually learn and work for change.
Did it twice. Didn't get elected though. Best I did was 27% of the vote for state legislature.
 
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