!!! My Hydrolock Is Not Bubblin Is My Beer Ruined What To Do Help Me ASAP !!!

[Protos]

LOL
Even when I was a n00b I never asked this proverbial question Well, on the 258th batch it's time to ask it finally. Cause it's my first time when fermentation doesn't start at all.

An Old Slug Porter clone, inoculated with dry-sprinkled MJ M42 Strong Ale. No bubbles, no gravity fall in 72 hours. No visible infection either. Added the same amount of the same dry yeast, this time rehydrated in wort. The next day, still nothing happens. Well, the yeast is dead.

What do you think, is it a wise decision to open a fresh sachet and re-inoculate the wort the 3rd time?

I'm a bit concerned that a wort standing still for 4 days and getting three times the normal dosage of dry yeast might produce a beer with some nasty off flavours. In your experience, is it OK to repitch yeast as many times as it takes for the fermentation to start? Or is the batch a dumper already?

 

[AlexKay]

It's never a dumper until it's done, carbonated, and conditioned. I vote to re-inoculate as many times as necessary.

 

[AlexKay]

On further reflection, I dumped a tannin-overloaded dunkelweizen before carbonation, and an ill-conceived Kartoffelbier before fermenting. But it's almost never a dumper.

 

[Protos]

Kartoffelbier

My Rosenbier met the same fate at the same pre-bottling stage for the same reason: an ill-conceived brew. There was no way to expect anything good from a beer laden with 20% of Rose-Petal-infused Wodka

Old Slug Porter is a great beer though. It would be a shame to dump it even before it's fermented

 

[AlexKay]

Rosenbier

I'm actually planning a lavender saison for next week's brewing. This gives me pause.

 

[Home_alone1]

Lavender is for soap

 

[Barakn]

There's no word whether the second sachet was purchased from the same source, had the same or different expiration date, or how it was stored after purchase. If it was the same bad batch from the manufacturer, or both sachets were mishandled by the LHBS, or they were stored in the same home fridge that failed for an extended time, it wouldn't be surprising if they both failed. I would have rehydrated the second sachet in warm water, not wort.

I don't think the two duds would contribute "nasty off flavours." Just think of them as if they're the yeast hulls you'd ordinarily add after a stuck fermentation anyways. Definitely consider a third pitch, but of a different, aggressive yeast.

 

[passedpawn]

More yeast. Raise the temperature.

Maybe proof the yeast first. Do a google search, just involves a bit of sugar water and 15 minutes and observation for bubbles.

 

[hottpeper13]

Might not be a bad idea to put back in BK and bring to 180* for 10 min then chill and pitch. Will give you time to put that dry yeast on some 1.030 wort to make sure.

 

[Protos]

Really great idea, @hottpeper13!
The wort still doesn't look or smell infected but it would be nice to exclude any chances for bugs thay may have settled in there.
Really pity it comes too late. Just 4 hours ago (96 hours after the 1st pitch) I pitched the 3rd time from the brand new sachet of the same M42 yeast rehydrated in water and this time I'm finally seeing the signs of life on the dark planet.
What a shame I didn't give a thought to shortly boiling up or pasteurizing the wort, just for the peace of mind.

It's a mystery of nature, however, why the yeast in the first sachet turned out dead. Well it's a year past its BBF date, it's been resealed once, but it's my usual practice through the years to split sachets between my small batches (2.5 g per each 6 L batch - or 3.33 g if the yeast if past-BBF) and to reseal them in the most cafreful and sterile way. The last time I took some yeast from this sachet was in May, a gorgeous problem-free Porter came out of that endeavour. No temp fluctuations, no power outages in the fridge since that. I just wonder what could have killed it. I used to have my yeasts infected, like twice per 2 hundred batches, but I've never seen a complete dieout like that

 

[hotbeer]

Have you checked the SG? I wouldn't go by a lack of seeing bubbles as a decision on whether it's fermenting or not.

 

[Protos]

Sure, that's the first thing I do when in doubt regarding how fermentations proceed. I've seen a "silent" fermentation with no bubbles or Kräusen whatsoever but with a normal gravity fall. That was with a Belgian yeast.

Luckily, the batch in question is happily bubbling now. If it's good or bad after a 4-day lagtime, I'll know much later. Thanks all for your suggestions!

 

[passedpawn]

Have you checked the SG? I wouldn't go by a lack of seeing bubbles as a decision on whether it's fermenting or not.

no gravity fall in 72 hours.

Sounds like yes. Given he's got about 250 brews under his belt, I'd guess he also knows how to measure gravity.

 

[balrog]

I am really surprised. I've never seen a dry yeast do nothing. Do something late, slowly, rolling it's teenager "whatever" "I can't even" eyes at me for days before taking off. But never nothing. Very odd.

 

[hotbeer]

Sounds like yes. Given he's got about 250 brews under his belt, I'd guess he also knows how to measure gravity.

If it wasn't stated in the OP, then I don't assume. Or at least I try not to.

The OP's answer to my question was satisfactory though to relieve my concern.

Of course I'm only assuming the OP was answering my question!

 

[An Ankoù]

It's a mystery of nature, however, why the yeast in the first sachet turned out dead. Well it's a year past its BBF date, it's been resealed once, but it's my usual practice through the years to split sachets between my small batches (2.5 g per each 6 L batch - or 3.33 g if the yeast if past-BBF) and to reseal them in the most cafreful and sterile way. The last time I took some yeast from this sachet was in May, a gorgeous problem-free Porter came out of that endeavour. No temp fluctuations, no power outages in the fridge since that. I just wonder what could have killed it. I used to have my yeasts infected, like twice per 2 hundred batches, but I've never seen a complete dieout like that

I reckon that's where the problem lies. I've used unopened sachets of yeast many years after their sell by date, but once opened, no matter how well sealed, it can quickly deteriorate.
Dried yeast isn't expensive and it would be better to pitch the entire sachet and then either refuse the sediment from an earlier batch or rebuilt the yeast from a bottle of beer.

 

[Protos]

I gave that a thought too, but no, I don't think that's the reason. I've been doing that for years, and have kept sachets opened and sanitarily resealed for 1.5 years max and nothing like that happened. Infection, yes, very rarely. Dying out the entire population, never. I doubt all the cells in a sachet could just naturally die since May, when the same sachet was last time registered as perfectly alive and no temp emergencies have happened in the fridge since then.
Dry yeasts aren't very cheap to order where I'm currently living. So it's better not to discard what I have, that's why I'm trying to find out the reason, to prevent further losses.

 

[passedpawn]

If it wasn't stated in the OP, then I don't assume. Or at least I try not to.

The OP's answer to my question was satisfactory though to relieve my concern.

Of course I'm only assuming the OP was answering my question!

But it was stated in the OP. He is measuring gravity. I posted his quote, but here it is again.

no gravity fall in 72 hours.

 

[Protos]

Yep, I did measure gravity, I faithfully testify that I really did. I measured it with a refractometer, knowing the original gravity and making all necessary corrections and calculations.
The gravity fall was zero at the 3rd and 4th day after the first inoculation.
Now it's going down, I assume. It's bubbling and forming a Kräusen.

 

[passedpawn]

Yep, I did measure gravity, I faithfully testify that I really did. I measured it with a refractometer, knowing the original gravity and making all necessary corrections and calculations.
The gravity fall was zero at the 3rd and 4th day after the first inoculation.
Now it's going down, I assume. It's bubbling and forming a Kräusen.

How do you explain the new activity?

 

[Protos]

I repitched for the 3rd time from a different unopened sachet which had the same expiration date (Jul 2021) and same batch code as the one which died out. I rehydrated the yeast in warmish water beforehand. Fermentation started in 4 hours.

I don't know what to think about all that. I still can't imagine any reason behind dry yeast, although resealed, dropping dead in 4 months with no obvious causes. A detective story, indeed.

 

[Miraculix]

I repitched for the 3rd time from a different unopened sachet which had the same expiration date (Jul 2021) and same batch code as the one which died out. I rehydrated the yeast in warmish water beforehand. Fermentation started in 4 hours.

I don't know what to think about all that. I still can't imagine any reason behind dry yeast, although resealed, dropping dead in 4 months with no obvious causes. A detective story, indeed.

Maybe some packs lay in the sun for too long and got pasteurised or the carton they must have been packed in stood directly next to a heater. Dry yeast is sturdy but sometimes people do stupid things by accident. You never know what happened before they fell into your hands.

 

[VikeMan]

@Protos I'm late to the party, but any moisture that got into the re-'sealed' pack could have caused them to fail. I wouldn't count on the fact that you've done this before without issues to guarantee that it would always work. Unless you vacuum bag them, you can't really get a perfect seal.

 

[Protos]

That's the most realistic explanation, @VikeMan. Moisture. That's very probable, indeed. Thanks.

I think from now I need to change my resealing technique. On plastic sachets (Ferments) I probably will use soldering (cutting with a hot knife or whichever tool would work better), and with metallic sachets (MJ, Lalbrew), no other option than moving the yeast powder to sterilised, tightly-capped vials.

 

[Zambezi Special]

How about metallic packs inside a vacuum sealed plastic bag?

 

[Protos]

I have no vacuum sealer, unfortunately.
Vials will be cheaper in the long run.

 

[Miraculix]

That's the most realistic explanation, @VikeMan. Moisture. That's very probable, indeed. Thanks.

I think from now I need to change my resealing technique. On plastic sachets (Ferments) I probably will use soldering (cutting with a hot knife or whichever tool would work better), and with metallic sachets (MJ, Lalbrew), no other option than moving the yeast powder to sterilised, tightly-capped vials.

Didn't we talk about this topic somewhere else? Just tape the opening with regular gafa or whatever tape and throw them immidiately into the freezer. That solves all issues you might have otherwise. A tigth seal is not important anymore once below 0C.

 

[hottpeper13]

Back to the beer! You might have the best brew ever ,never to be duplicated. If it's off but tasty,put a crushed camden tab in the keg and it should stay that way until kicked.

 

[VikeMan]

Didn't we talk about this topic somewhere else? Just tape the opening with regular gafa or whatever tape and throw them immidiately into the freezer. That solves all issues you might have otherwise. A tigth seal is not important anymore once below 0C.

Are you saying that yeast below 0C can't be damaged by moisture (from humidity)? If so, are you certain of that, and how?

 

[Protos]

Didn't we talk about this topic somewhere else? Just tape the opening with regular gafa or whatever tape and throw them immidiately into the freezer

Yes, we have talked about that. You suggested freezer storage and I replied that I had thought about that but didn't dare to because of my concern that cycles of thawing would condensate moisture and when it freezes back ice would damage the yeast cells.
Now I've learned the microscopic amounts of moisture don't even need to be frozen to damage the yeast.

I remember you told you got no problems with your freezer method. Well, neither had I, keeping taped sachets in the fridge at 4C.
Until now.

 

[Miraculix]

Are you saying that yeast below 0C can't be damaged by moisture (from humidity)? If so, are you certain of that, and how?

Because water is solid and bacterial growth won't happen. It also won't get into the cell. It's literally frozen.

 

[Miraculix]

Yes, we have talked about that. You suggested freezer storage and I replied that I had thought about that but didn't dare to because of my concern that cycles of thawing would condensate moisture and when it freezes back ice would damage the yeast cells.
Now I've learned the microscopic amounts of moisture don't even need to be frozen to damage the yeast.

I remember you told you got no problems with your freezer method. Well, neither had I, keeping taped sachets in the fridge at 4C.
Until now.

The water doesn't damage the cell at 4 degrees. It wakes the cell up and then it dies because there is no food. The dead cell will be good food for bacteria and so on....

Once it's frozen, this stuff doesn't happen.

 

[Protos]

The case is not about infection, not at all.
It's about the uninfected yeast that unexpectedly died out in 4 months.
Moisture is the only feasible explanation I can think of, although the dead yeast didn't look moist or clumped when I pitched it into the wort. It had an unusual smell however.

 

[passedpawn]

Didn't we talk about this topic somewhere else? Just tape the opening with regular gafa or whatever tape and throw them immidiately into the freezer. That solves all issues you might have otherwise. A tigth seal is not important anymore once below 0C.

That might work, no idea.

10+ years ago, there was period of time where Lallemand's Nottingham yeast was producing many bad batches for people everywhere. During that time, I had a bad batch that I blamed on Notty and never used that yeast again. Eventually, Lallemand determined that "microholes" where being punched into the sachet by the machine that stamped the expiration date on there. Those holes led to awful performance of the affected yeast do to prolonged oxidation. For that reason, I have never attempted to save a partial sachet of dry yeast.

I can't find record of this, maybe somebody with better google-fu can.

 

[Protos]

It wakes the cell up and then it dies because there is no food. The dead cell will be good food for bacteria and so on....

I agree with this.
But anyway, thawing cycles are unavoidable. Even during the brief moment I weight out a dose from the frozen sachet. It condenses moisture from the air, juices inside the cell thaw as well, and then I freeze the thawed cell again. I don't think such a cell has much chances of waking up at the next thaw cycle.

 

[Protos]

I can't find record of this, maybe somebody with better google-fu can

I read about that. I wasn't a homebrewer back then, though.
The yeast in question was a good one, nothing to blame on Lallemand. I made an excellent Porter with this same sachet 4 months before this strange thing happened.

 

[VikeMan]

Because water is solid and bacterial growth won't happen. It also won't get into the cell. It's literally frozen.

Water is solid. Water vapor is not.

The water doesn't damage the cell at 4 degrees. It wakes the cell up and then it dies because there is no food. The dead cell will be good food for bacteria and so on....

Once it's frozen, this stuff doesn't happen.

Please provide evidence that water vapor can't penetrate a "frozen" dried yeast cell. I asked how you know that yeast below 0C can't be damaged by moisture (from humidity). "Because it's literally frozen" doesn't convince me. And a simple statement that "water doesn't damage the cell at 4 degrees" (or any specific temp) doesn't convince me.

Here's what the late Dr. Clayton Cone (of Lallemand) once wrote (emphasis mine):
"Active Dry Yeast, at <5% moisture, is originally packaged in an oxygen free atmosphere either via nitrogen flush or vacuum. Under these conditions they will lose about 20% activity / year when stored at 20C (68F) and about 5% activity / year when stored at 4C (40F). It is the presence of Oxygen and the pick up of small amounts of moisture that causes the yeast to deteriorate at a faster rate, once the package has been opened. If you can vacuum pack (kitchen vacuum package equipment)or store in an air tight container and refrigerate you may retain a substantial amount of the activity. It would be wise to increase the inoculum 50% to be on the safe side. It is always a gamble, depending on how much moisture the cells have picked up each time you open and close the package and return to the refrigerator."

No mention of bacteria being the principal probem, or even any mention at all. He talked about deterioration, i.e. damage.

Again, I'm not saying you are wrong when you say that "frozen" dry yeast can't be damaged by moisture, but I've seen nothing authoritative to convince me of that.

 

[Miraculix]

Do you ever saw dry stuff get wet while being frozen (including everything surrounding it and the way itself)?

 

[Protos]

I feel the question a bit tough on Miraculix. Few of us can prove our homebrewing practices and conceptions with links or authorities. Nobody writes manuals for frugal homebrewers on how to split a dried yeast sachet between 4 small batches, brewed in a course of a year
Me, f. ex., I can't scientifically ground my practice of resealing yeast sachets, I just do that and it works in most cases. Statistically, with this method I encountered a 1% bacterial issues and 0.5% moisture issues failure rate to date, which is an acceptable risk.
As far as I know from our conversation, Miraculix freezes his yeasts successfully and his failure rate is probably even lower than mine.

 

[VikeMan]

I feel the question a bit tough on Miraculix. Few of us can prove our homebrewing practices and conceptions with links or authorities.

I have no problem at all with people relating their experiences and saying "I do "X" and I've never had an issue." But sweeping absolute statements that are not supported (if they turn out to be incorrect or incomplete) can cause problems for people who see them and rely on them. If something is not generally accepted common knowledge, it pays to apply Carl Sagan's standard of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Otherwise, it's just anecdotes, and shouldn't be presented as fact. <climbing down from soapbox>