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My first NEIPA - yeast info needed

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adam88

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Dear All!

I will make my first neipa in a week. i've already bought the ingredients, i have 4-5 days until brew-day. Until that i'd like to get some info about neipa brewing.
I have a question about yeast. I've bought wyeast http://www.wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/london-ale-iii 1318 liquid yeast. I'd like to ferment 20L of beer. (I will brew with biab method). So my question is should i create a yeast starter or not? I have a magnetic stirrer for this and DME. But i've read on several sites that for example for a neipa a lower amount of yeast (no starter) can be good because of the esters. Other site says (and i've learned that too) that starter is necessary because of the higher OG.
So what can you recommend for me? Shall i create a starter from my 1318 whyeast or not for a neipa? (aroma hops i'll use: galaxy, citra, amarillo)

Thanks in advance!
 

PianoMan

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I have yet to have any success with 1318. I end up with a diaceatyl butter bombs. Did one with Safale05 with out issues. My next try is using Connan with half a packet of 05 for cleaning up. In a nut shell, interested in peoples response also.

Also make sure you have a zero oxygen transfer setup. Air ruins this style.

Best wishes and hope it turns out!
 

TobyG32

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I'd say go ahead and make a starter. I've used that yeast a few times in NEIPA (fermented around 65f) and still get light fruity esters with a healthy pitch rate. Water profile is huge with this style too, so maybe look into that as well before brew day. Hop combo sounds great. Good luck!
 

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Have found 1318 to do a great job. Can be a few pitfalls however.

Timing of dry-hop can affect the outcome regarding diacetyl. Apparently hop enzymes can convert non-fermentable dextrines into fermentables to a certain degree (ref hop creep). The more hops, the more enzymes and more conversion. This leaves you with a low level fermentation followed by yeast going immediately dormant as there is nothing left to chew on - giving you unprocessed diacetyl. So doing dry hop additions before hitting FG can help. Probably about 4 or 5 points before terminal will do you well. Doing a simultaneous d-rest at this time can help out as well.
 

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I used Gigayeast Vermont ipa . I did a starter as well because it's a high abv beer.
 

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Assuming an OG of 1.07 and 20 litres of wort then Mr Malty says you would need 3.2 packs of yeast assuming that the yeast is four weeks old. You will be pitching 1/3rd of the amount of yeast that Mr Malty recommends. Make of that what you will.
 

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I have had great success with 1318. I always make a starter and ph has to be right along with timing the dry hops. Calcium to Sulphate ratio has to be right also, I use higher Chloride and lower Sulphate with mine and it works great for me. I put the first round of dry hops in at high krausen after 24 hours in fermenter. Ferment at 68 degrees until 5-6 points away from final gravity. Then raise temp to 70 to 72 degrees to finish and you will get rid of diaceatyl. Should finish fermenting in about 7-8 days. Then I dump the yeast (or you could rack to a secondary if you don't have a conical fermenter) and I add the second round of dry hops and after three days you can keg, or bottle. Purge the air in the keg with C02 or whatever method you choose that works for you, as air will ruin this style of beer. Hope this helps, good luck!

John
 

Steve-Ooo

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I just pitched 1318 for the first time in a neipa with a huge starter (OG 1.082 for 6.5 gallons). It'll be a couple weeks before I see how it turns out. FWIW I always make a starter when using liquid yeast.
 
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adam88

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Dear All,

Thanks for all your replies.
I'm going to make a starter.
But I'd like to ask you about the mentioned water profile. I've made a mistake. I dont have the opportunity to get "Chemicals"\ ingredients to adjust water profile in my country\ City. I Can get distilled water, RO water, mineral Water, and some basic stuff like kitchen salt etc.
Edit: i could try to buy epsom salt and/or calciumchloride in an apotheke/bioshop :S But what can i do with the tapwater if i couldnt? Whats your recommendation?
This is the profile of the tap water:
Ca:83 mg/ L
K:1 mg\L
Chloride 10 mg\L
Mg:47.1 mg\ L
Na: 7 mg\L
Sulfate: 12 mg\L
Nk:22
Ph:7,5
What can I try? :s
 
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hottpeper13

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I'm not familiar with the Nk term. Is that alkalinity? The water looks real good,your Ca,Mg is awesome,those are more important then the Cl2 or SO4 and those are basically 1:1. You might want to adjust the pH with phosphoric acid to ~5.5 or use ~6oz of acidulated malt to get to ~5.2. And as stated "0" oxygen during transfer. And that hop creep is real,I clean up the diaceatyl with a 64-65 beginning and after 24 hrs of dry hop I raise to 68* when the hops are pulled I raise to 70*-72* for 7 days , and because it's a NEIPA no cold crash.
 

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The water looks real good
Yes it does, if Nk indeed indicates alkalinity, it's very decent brewing water!
However, the ions don't balance out as is, there's a lack of Anions. Hopefully that's not in additional hidden alkalinity, although there's not much else that can fill the bill in drinking water.
those are more important then the Cl2 or SO4
I think you mean Cl (chloride) and SO4 (sulfate) ions.

Cl2 (chlorine) and Chloramines are BAD in brewing water, they form chlorophenols with the malt. Many municipal water companies add one or the other for sanitation. Chlorine and Chloramines can be easily removed with a 1/4 Campden tablet (Sodium Metabisulfite) per 20 liters of (brewing) water. Or use an equivalent (a pinch) of K-Meta (Potassium Metabisulfite).
 
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IslandLizard

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But I'd like to ask you about the mentioned water profile. I've made a mistake. I dont have the opportunity to get "Chemicals"\ ingredients to adjust water profile in my country\ City. I Can get distilled water, RO water, mineral Water, and some basic stuff like kitchen salt etc.
Edit: i could try to buy epsom salt and/or calciumchloride in an apotheke/bioshop
Most useful and often needed brewing "salts" are:
Calcium Sulfate (Gypsum)
Calcium Chloride
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)

Most brewing supply stores carry them, or as you said, drug stores, health food stores, or apothecaries, but the latter can be pricey pharmaceutical grade plus retail markup. I've also seen them on eBay. You could try a brewery too. You use them in fairly small amounts, like teaspoons or fractions thereof per brew. NEIPAs really need high Chloride and some Sulfate, at a ratio between 2:1 to 3:1, 150 ppm Chloride minimum, and as high as 300 ppm.

Kitchen salt (NaCl) is rarely needed or wanted, although a small amount may be added to many beers, and a bit more in a Gose. It's the Sodium ion that you taste, but too much ruins your beer.

Definitely, always make a starter when using liquid yeast. You don't know the whereabouts or condition of the yeast in that pack. The starter proves viability and raises cell count. Save some out each time to make starters from next time, and so on.
After making a starter, how much of it you actually pitch is up to you. You may underpitch a bit if you want to emphasize a certain character, but what you pitch should be in optimal condition (very viable). That also leaves more yeast for a starter for the next batch. :ban:
 

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To control mash pH you can use Phosphoric Acid, Lactic Acid, or use a (small) percentage of Sauergut (Sour Malt).
In small quantities Citric acid can be used, but in larger amounts, its flavor becomes apparent.

Other acids that can be used are Muriatic Acid (HCl) and Sulphuric Acid (H2SO4). Aside from protons (H3O+) they add Cl- or SO4-- ions, that are useful. Mind, though, these are very strong, corrosive acids, so if you use them be very careful. Eye and skin protection is recommended when handling these, especially when in concentrated form.

Use a water tool such as Bru'n Water (the free edition is fine) to calculate (estimate) your mash pH.
 
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adam88

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I will try to get phosphoric acid or lactic acid somewhere after xmas. When we talking about lowering the ph for mashing i have to add the acid to the water and set ph or i have to add it to the water+malt mix during mashing?
 

Jag75

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I will try to get phosphoric acid or lactic acid somewhere after xmas. When we talking about lowering the ph for mashing i have to add the acid to the water and set ph or i have to add it to the water+malt mix during mashing?
Get Bru'n Water . Just like Island Lizard said . It's a good program . You input your water report #'s. Or you use 100% RO or DI water and select your beer type . Then that will show you the water profile your aiming for . I just got it right before my last brew. It helps you calculate how much acids to add to your mash and sparge water . I hit the ph on the money just like the program said.
 

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I will try to get phosphoric acid or lactic acid somewhere after xmas. When we talking about lowering the ph for mashing i have to add the acid to the water and set ph or i have to add it to the water+malt mix during mashing?
Always add the water minerals ("salts") and acid to the (cold) strike water, before adding the milled grain, and make sure they have dissolved.
Once the grains are added and stir the mash progresses rather quickly, there's really not enough time for making any corrections.

Since you do BIAB, you'll be using your whole water volume (or most, if you do a sparge) in your kettle, as long as your kettle is large enough to fit it all inside, mash water and grain. And leaving enough headroom so you can stir it well. For a 20 liter batch you'd need at least a 45 liter kettle to fit it all in. A bit larger is better, more room, especially for higher gravity beer (uses more grain).

You could reserve some water for sparging (rinsing) the bag with grain after you pull it out and let it drip out as much as possible. A large spare container/bucket should work. A dunk sparge is more efficient than pouring water over, although many BIAB brewers don't sparge at all.

Your grain mix should be milled rather fine for BIAB to get good efficiency. It can be much finer (but not quite into powder) than for traditional mash tuns as the bag is your (fine mesh) filter.
 
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adam88

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Hello All!

Yes I'm going to use a ph meter.
I checked Bru'n water excel sheet. It says i have to add 24.8 ml of 80% lactic acid to 30 litres of water (1:4 ratio for mash, then i have to make more beer for boiling to get 20liters of beer at the end of boiling). It can be good calculation?
I'm asking this because the calculator says my final ph will be wrong :S it will be 5.75 and i have to reduce it. But if i'm recalculating it, it says "only" 24.8ml of lactic acid :S
 

Jag75

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Hello All!

Yes I'm going to use a ph meter.
I checked Bru'n water excel sheet. It says i have to add 24.8 ml of 80% lactic acid to 30 litres of water (1:4 ratio for mash, then i have to make more beer for boiling to get 20liters of beer at the end of boiling). It can be good calculation?
I'm asking this because the calculator says my final ph will be wrong :S it will be 5.75 and i have to reduce it. But if i'm recalculating it, it says "only" 24.8ml of lactic acid :S
It's hard to help because I'm new at this program . I have some questions for ya. Did you input your water info or are you using 100% RO or DI water ? Did you select NEIPA in the drop down arrow ?
 

IslandLizard

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Hello All!

Yes I'm going to use a ph meter.
I checked Bru'n water excel sheet. It says i have to add 24.8 ml of 80% lactic acid to 30 litres of water (1:4 ratio for mash, then i have to make more beer for boiling to get 20liters of beer at the end of boiling). It can be good calculation?
I'm asking this because the calculator says my final ph will be wrong :S it will be 5.75 and i have to reduce it. But if i'm recalculating it, it says "only" 24.8ml of lactic acid :S
Something is off, 25 ml of 80% Lactic is way too much for such a small batch! Do you have your sheet set to calculate in metric (liters), not in gallons? 80% Lactic?

The most 80% 88% Lactic Acid I ever used in a 5 gallon batch mash was 5 ml, and that was too much, as I had made an error. I gather my mash pH was around 4.7-4.8. Beer was still fine, though.

You can always do a test mash with a half pound (or pound) of your accurately measured grist mix, everything scaled precisely, including your mash water and mineral additions (for that, a scale measuring in 1/100 of a gram is needed). Then take a pH reading of a cooled sample (@ room temps) 15-20 minutes into the mash, and again at 40' and 60' and compare with your pH prediction. Then apply the corrections to the main batch. Throw the test batch into the main mash at the end. No wort wasted.

The Brew Science forum is filled with these kind of questions and scenarios and resulting advice to learn from.
then i have to make more beer for boiling to get 20liters of beer at the end of boiling
We boil wort. It becomes beer after we pitch yeast.
Why do you need to boil more wort?
 
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adam88

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-Yes, i meant wort (i used the wrong word), sorry.
-Unfortunately, lactic acid i can buy in my country only 80%.
-My input was my tap water profile.
-I can not find any dropdown list for neipa. I've downloaded Bru'n water v1.24
-I missed the calculated lactic acid amount from tab "Water adjusment", i filled with the amount from tab "sparge acidification", now it says my ph will be 5.3
-Yes, i filled total water and total batch volume
-I calculated the water the following way: my machine max is 27L. I thought i will follow the 1:4 ratio for mashing (malt:water). It means 24L in my case. After mashing, i guess only ~20L will remain. Then i have to sparge because i have to get ~28L of wort for boiling and after boiling ~20L will remain (which is my goal, to ferment 20L)

The calculator still says 24.8ml of lactic acid :S:S:S
 

Jag75

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-Yes, i meant wort (i used the wrong word), sorry.
-Unfortunately, lactic acid i can buy in my country only 80%.
-My input was my tap water profile.
-I can not find any dropdown list for neipa. I've downloaded Bru'n water v1.24
-I missed the calculated lactic acid amount from tab "Water adjusment", i filled with the amount from tab "sparge acidification", now it says my ph will be 5.3
-Yes, i filled total water and total batch volume
-I calculated the water the following way: my machine max is 27L. I thought i will follow the 1:4 ratio for mashing (malt:water). It means 24L in my case. After mashing, i guess only ~20L will remain. Then i have to sparge because i have to get ~28L of wort for boiling and after boiling ~20L will remain (which is my goal, to ferment 20L)

The calculator still says 24.8ml of lactic acid :S:S:S
Did you download the free one ? If so this may be why you cant find the drop down arrow and select NEIPA. The one I have I think was like 10$ and may have more stuff on it , not sure. I'm still very unsure of how your getting that amount of Lactic acid . It seems way too much. Take a couple screen shots and post maybe you will get the answers your looking for .
 

Jag75

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I'm not sure about this but it looks like you have commas instead of decimal points in the #'s. I have no idea if that makes a difference but when I see it I read it like your mash is 24 thousand( 24,) liters of water instead of 24. Maybe that's why the large amount of salts and acids are being shown. On your water adjustment page where it says "yellow dry" , you had to of selected that type. NEIPA should be down a bit towards custom beers. Unless you have the free version and it doesnt offer you the same amount of types.
 

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Excellent points by @Jag75! ^
Not sure about the commas, that could be your Excel preference, and may be A-OK, but generally, at least in science, decimals are entered as a dot, AFAIK!

What stands out is your bicarbonate at 476,6 or 476.6, it looks really high. How did you arrive at that from your Nk of 22?
 

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I am seeing a crazy-high bicarbonate levels. That will affect acid requirements. Still, that much lactic will show up in the flavor for sure. I am wondering if diluting the ground water by 50% or more with distilled would be a better option.
 
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adam88

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I changed the ',' to '.'. I think it necessary because some fields turned into orange in case of data where the comment said "enter zero if this value is not known". But i also have problem, because e.g. when i have to enter ph, it not accept 7.5 (it convert this into some kind of decimal number like: 43278,0 and i can not change the field format).

The bicarbonate: The Bru'n water says: 1 degree of german hardness equals to 17.85 CaCO3 in the introductions tab (i've found the similar info on the internet when i looked for calculators). So 22 degree of german hardness = 392CaCO3, i wrote this value into the reported alkalinity as CaCO3 field which counted me the bicarbonate i wrote into that field.

After changing ',' to '.':
 

Jag75

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You might want to start a thread in science section . Post your water test results there. There are some very knowledgable people in there that can break it down to you. I'm a rookie at this water profile stuff . Good luck. Keep us informed
 

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I changed the ',' to '.'. I think it necessary because some fields turned into orange in case of data where the comment said "enter zero if this value is not known". But i also have problem, because e.g. when i have to enter ph, it not accept 7.5 (it convert this into some kind of decimal number like: 43278,0 and i can not change the field format).

The bicarbonate: The Bru'n water says: 1 degree of german hardness equals to 17.85 CaCO3 in the introductions tab (i've found the similar info on the internet when i looked for calculators). So 22 degree of german hardness = 392CaCO3, i wrote this value into the reported alkalinity as CaCO3 field which counted me the bicarbonate i wrote into that field.

After changing ',' to '.':...
I've seen "errors" like that in Bru'n Water when a value is missing or wonky. It's usually caused by "solver" formulas that got out of hand, they need to get reset. Please fill in the correct values, using the decimal dot, on a fresh copy of the program. That should give us a more useful overview.

By the way, I found a source for the meaning of the "Nk" value, for those who were wondering:

Water hardness
The pleasure value of potable water and efficiency of the water used for washing are determined in part by the hardness of water, that is, its CaO (calcium oxide) mg/litre ratio. Water hardness figures indicate that in the region of the capital the water is mostly of medium hardness. It is important to know that the harder the water, the more pleasant flavourit has, but the lesser it is suitable for washing, and our washing machine does not like hard water. In most of the cases – e.g. on the labels of the detergents – water hardness is indicated in terms of the German standard of hardness (nk)*.

  • Very soft water: under 40 CaO mg/litre (4 nk)
  • Soft water: between 40-80 CaO mg/litre (4-8 nk)
  • Medium-hard water: between 80-180 CaO mg/litre (8-18 nk)
  • Hard water: between 180-300 CaO mg/litre (18-30 nk)
  • Very hard water: above 300 CaO mg/litre (30 nk)
In the service area of our Company, the average hardness of potable water is 141 CaO mg/l.

*The German standard for hardness (nk) is one tenth of the CaO mg/litre, so for 141 CaO mg/litre, for example, this value is 14.1 nk (2016).

Pass this information on to the Brew Science forum when posting your question there, together with screenshots of the new Bru'n Water calculations.

The originators/builders of Bru'n Water are on the Brew Science forum, they can help you with any questions on the matter.

Remember, I mentioned the missing Anions from your water report? Well we found those, and they are indeed in the alkalinity. You have fairly hard water which may not be all that suitable for brewing, as is, so some tweaking is definitely needed.
 

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I'ved used 1318 well over 10x, and it's been amazing every time. Like other have stated, make a starter. There is never a reason not too. Start with healthy yeast always. Ferment anywhere from 62-72, and you'll be fine. Usually I'm right around 65-68. I've never had any diacetyl present.
 
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adam88

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Dear All!
Brewing is done. If i have questions other than this thread shall i delete this thread somehow? Or just open a new one?
 

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just post again right here. I would love to see how it turns out. by posting here, everyone that has participated will get a little flag popping up that there has been an update
 

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Dear All!
Brewing is done. If i have questions other than this thread shall i delete this thread somehow? Or just open a new one?
We don't delete threads, at least not routinely. All information remains for posterity and may help others.

If you have updates or more questions on this topic or anything else that has been discussed here, please add them to this thread.
We ARE curious how well your beer is faring and how it turns out in the end.

If you have a new, unrelated topic, by all means start a new thread for it.
 
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adam88

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Okay, then i will post here, and if its judged as unrelated, i will move :)

So i delayed the brewing to get water treatment equipment. I tried to follow this recipe: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/295897/neipa-hoppy-juicy-braumeister-20l. I also made a starter (from whyeast 1318 with magnetic stirrer). The method was the mentioned biab method. I disinfected everything regulary with starsan. (even my hand too if i touched something undisinfected.) Really everything.
Mash ph was 5.47, which should result in 5.2 at step boiling. I've started boiling 25L of wort at gravity 1.066. At the end i received 20L of wort at gravity 1.070. Which is higher than expected. (the recipes says 1.060). So now, i'm stressed if my yeast could ferment it the proper way :S:S
I'm also worrying about my wort: it seems dark for me. (I used pale ale malt). And cloudy. Cloudy as hell :S (Maybe i made a mistake with hotbreak? :S) I've tried to filter it with a coffe filter- of course used starsan on it - (not the paper type but the plastic, it could filter some of the things but i'm not sure. It not appeared to hop-parts :().
The yeast working (much of bubbles in my "clucking"), fermentation going at 21c temp.
I've prepared co2 for dry hopping.
Should i worry? :S
 

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Should i worry? :S
No, RDWHAHB! :D

Congrats on your first NEIPA!
Everything will sink to the bottom of the fermenter when the fermentation is over. Your beer will get clearer (less cloudy) during that process. Since it's a NEIPA, it may never become crystal clear, though, it's a signature of the style.

How long has it been actively fermenting (bubbling)?

What do you mean with "I've prepared co2 for dry hopping."
 
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adam88

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Tonight is the first 24hours.
Prepared co2: I mean (i've read and was told to me) that during dry hopping, i have to add co2 to the bucket to supersede the entering oxygen. And when i'll bottling the beer (unfortunately i dont have keg yet) i have to flush the bottle with co2 to suersede oxygen.
 

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