My corny spunding valve build

[CS223]

ETA:
The discussion started by WortMonger regarding using the spunding valve. My main interest is in using it to carbonate in the keg during fermentation. According to the Wiki pressure fermenting apparently reduces fusel alcohols and esters and hastens the fermentation and reduces the krausen height which is a plus when fermenting 5 gal. in a corny. It's also supposed to give a clearer beer and allow you to ferment at higher temperatures which is a plus for me in FL since at the moment I don't have secondary refrigeration. I'll have to (counter pressure) bottle from the corny. Quite a bit of information to wrap my head around in the thread, I'm still an amateur & new to brewing.


Based on muse435's build using the following parts:

Ball lock Gas Disconnect Item #5120 $5.99

1/4"FFL to 1/4"MPT fitting Item #S6078 $6.99

Norgren Pressure relief Valve $22.44

Norgren Spec Sheet

The Ashcroft gauge came from Ebay $7.87 delivered.

The Norgren valve has 1/4" NPT female inlet & outlets and it has two 1/8" NPT female gauge ports which can also be used for attaching additional kegs to the same spunding valve with the addition of check valves. Two socket head plugs are included with the valve to plug the gauge ports if they aren't used. The valve disassembles without tools for cleaning. The adjustment knob is like that on the current Tap-Rite regulators, pull out to adjust, push in to lock.

 

[brieuxster]

Outstanding !

 

[lud]

Is this for applying a little pressure during primary?

 

[badbrew]

That's a pretty heavy duty valve, hopefully not too heavy duty. It says it maxes out at 125 cu ft/ min and operates at between 5 and 125 psi. I made one too. I used about 5 feet of 5/16" tubing though. I don't want to use a blow off setup if I can avoid it. I used a 1-100 psi relief valve. The only thing that concerns me is how much relief it gives each time. When I was testing it on a primed keg, one keg pressure dropped to 0 while I was fooling around. I guess I won't know until I put it to the real test.

OP, what pressure do you plan to set it at?

 

[FirstStateBrewer]

Is this for applying a little pressure during primary?

I had to look it up, myself. It's to adjust/release pressure during a pressurized secondary fermentation. See this link: http://www.byo.com/stories/projects...ur-own-spunding-valve-to-carbonate-in-the-keg

 

[wolfman_48442]

They're also fantastic for transferring between kegs under counter-pressure.

 

[cfonnes]

Thanks for posting, I am very interested to see how it works for you.

 

[CS223]

That's a pretty heavy duty valve, hopefully not too heavy duty. It says it maxes out at 125 cu ft/ min and operates at between 5 and 125 psi. I made one too. I used about 5 feet of 5/16" tubing though. I don't want to use a blow off setup if I can avoid it. I used a 1-100 psi relief valve. The only thing that concerns me is how much relief it gives each time. When I was testing it on a primed keg, one keg pressure dropped to 0 while I was fooling around. I guess I won't know until I put it to the real test.

OP, what pressure do you plan to set it at?

I added the spec sheet link for the valve. Folks are using another lower cost valve with success, the Norgren is middle of the road cost wise with the valve from McMaster-Carr being the most expensive used for the application.

I plan to start at 5psi then bump it up after the vigorous fermentation is over and after checking the attenuation. How high will depend on on the temperature I'm able to maintain with a swamp cooler & the amount of CO2 required to carbonate. I might stick a hose barb & hose on the outlet and stick it in a bottle of sanitizer to gauge the amount of CO2 coming out. Debating on using a secondary keg. I've had the valve apart, nothing special about it, easy enough to clean if it gets gunked up. I'm thinking of tilting the corny during initial fermentation to possibly help with keeping the krasen out of the valve and also to let the bulk of the trub settle away from the dip tube. Don't know if either will work, like I said I'm still an amateur. If krausen becomes a problem then I might do the two corny thing.

 

[badbrew]

I have that valve in your link. As for krausen, use ferm cap as I plan to if you are doing 5 gal batches. I plan to start with 5 drops. As for pressure, I'm thinking whatever the lowest setting I can get to start with and then after 24 hours adjust if hissing along. I think I might try 20 psi and then ramp it to 30 at the last 0.01 left in gravity.

 

[JuanMoore]

They're also fantastic for transferring between kegs under counter-pressure.

Yes they are.

As for pressure, I'm thinking whatever the lowest setting I can get to start with and then after 24 hours adjust if hissing along. I think I might try 20 psi and then ramp it to 30 at the last 0.01 left in gravity.

It's supposedly best to keep the pressure under 15psi until after the majority of fermentation has occurred. Yeast are believed to start doing strange things at higher pressures. It's near impossible to set the pressure on my spunding valve accurately until there's pressure present, but using a CO2 tank to give it an initial blast of pressure a little higher than my desired fermentation pressure allows me to dial it down to right where I want it. This also helps make sure the lid is fully seated when using a corny keg.

 

[badbrew]

Yes they are.



It's supposedly best to keep the pressure under 15psi until after the majority of fermentation has occurred. Yeast are believed to start doing strange things at higher pressures. It's near impossible to set the pressure on my spunding valve accurately until there's pressure present, but using a CO2 tank to give it an initial blast of pressure a little higher than my desired fermentation pressure allows me to dial it down to right where I want it. This also helps make sure the lid is fully seated when using a corny keg.

The only thing keeping me from going too low is paranoia of a blow out. I would hate to ruin my brand new gauge and valve. This batch I'm brewing tonight involves a few new toys, one being the spunding and the others a new wort chiller and a kettle valve with a filter. So as long as it can be drank, I'll live with a little funkyness from this experimental batch.:cross:

 

[CS223]

Seems to be doing the job quite well. It appears that one click on the knob equates to 1 psi increase or reduction.

 

[duckdogs]

This looks like it would be neat to try, to have carbonated beer when its finished fermenting is a nice bonus. :rockin:

I suppose if you were going to go strait from the cooler into the keg, it would be possible to use oxygen to oxygenate the wart, set the initial pressure to seal the keg and your starting pressure for the spudding valve. Multitasking

 

[duckdogs]

My version of the "spudding valve" Grainger had all the parts in stock...except for the keg attachment.

 

[CS223]

My version of the "spudding valve" Grainger had all the parts in stock...except for the keg attachment.

At what point (attenuation?) do you start cranking the pressure up for carbonation? I'm stuck with a swamp cooler on this batch but I did pick up a 5cu/ft freezer today for a keezer build. If I recall from the thread, you really have to cool it in the 40's to get volume of CO2 with a reasonable pressure. I think I printed out the chart from that thread and have it somewhere.

 

[chuckjaxfl]

Hahaha...didn't take long.

What did you throw out to make room?

 

[badbrew]

My version of the "spudding valve" Grainger had all the parts in stock...except for the keg attachment.

I got mine at grainger as well, and except for the tee and the hose length, it's basically the same as yours. Funny gauge on the side of the valve though
:cross:. At 30 on the valve it reads about 7 on my real pressure gauge. I also found that the valve gauge was not constant either. Yesterday I had no hissing at all after 2 days and thought that fermentation stopped early, so I unplugged the device for an hour and plugged it back in, and sure enough the pressure went up so I guess I'm good.:rockin:

 

[duckdogs]

:cross:. At 30 on the valve it reads about 7 on my real pressure gauger. I also found that the valve gauger was not constant either. Yesterday I had no hissing at all after 2 days and thought that fermentation stopped early, so I unplugged the device for an hour and plugged it back in, and sure enough the pressure went up so I guess I'm good.:rockin:

Noticed the same thing I hooked up my co. bottle to test it initially on an empty keg think it's going to take some messing with to get set up accurately.

 

[helibrewer]

Here's a link to an article describing how to build and use a closed fermentation system. It includes directions on using 2 corny's to pressure transfer after fermentation....basically your beer never sees O2 or the light of day after being pitched...until of course, you drink it!!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7125050/beer/Closed-Pressurized-Fermenatation.pdf

 

[onthedot]

Those of you fermenting under pressure in a corny: what size batches are you doing?

 

[JuanMoore]

Those of you fermenting under pressure in a corny: what size batches are you doing?

With fermcap you can ferment 5 gal in a corny, with a net just shy of 5 gal after losses. Pressure helps reduce krausen also, but not at well as fermcap. I don't use fermcap though, and usually brew 12 gal batches and either split it between three 5 gal kegs (either corny or sankey) or between two 1/4 bbl kegs (7.5 gal). I use the same volumes regardless of whether I'm fermenting under pressure or not.

 

[onthekeg]

Pressurized fermentation isn't documented other than through homebrewers. Does anyone know of a published "trial"?

 

[JuanMoore]

Pressurized fermentation isn't documented other than through homebrewers. Does anyone know of a published "trial"?

Pressurized fermentation is probably more common among microbreweries than it is among homebrewers. Many of them use it to at least partially carbonate their beer. I seem to recall reading somewhere about rogue using pressurized fermentation as a tool to get the clean maibock flavors with a top fermenting yeast and ale temps for their dead guy ale. A German brewing scientist by the name of Dr Wellhoener did quite a bit of research in the 50's, and several others have also done studies since then. Many of the changes in levels of fermentation byproducts seem to be strain dependent, which has caused conflicting reports as to the exact effects of pressurized fermentation.

 

[lud]

5 in a 10.

 

[High_Noonan]

My valve arrived last night, now I am making a list (and checking it twice) of the other pieces to get this project finished up.
I'd like to source my gauge locally from one of the big boxes or even my Mom & Pop Hardware.
Is there anything special I should ask for in this gauge?
Just a 30psi pressure gauge?

 

[Face Eater]

Subscribed. I think I may just have to try this out!

 

[lud]

I wouldn't consider that using a spunding valve to be considered "rough duty".... a simple/inexpensive gauge should suffice. Yes...0-30psi.

 

[Dgonza9]

I think I prefer fermenting in a sanke. The cornies are just too small, my opinion. With trub loss, etc, it's less than a full keg. There's nothing at all wrong with doing it this way, mind you. Beats the crap out of siphoning. Lot's of pluses. But I think the sanke is the way to go. You can build a similar spud valve and use a keg tapper.

Very nice valves, though guys. I'll be curious to see if you don't move on to a sanke.

Cheers.

 

[High_Noonan]

I'll be curious to see if you don't move on to a sanke.

I JUST sent an email to my LHBS asking if if he could locate a quarter barrel or a larger Corny for me! I absolutely agree with you that the size is severely limiting. My last batch lost a bunch out the blow-off (still building the spud) tube. I boil with Fermcap-S, but I haven't added any post-boil. Now it seems that its use at all may be suspect, so I am questioning if I should continue to use it.
I am not going back to fermenting in glass, though, unless it is for a wicked special brew/reason. The benefits of fermenting in the keg just far out-weigh fermenting in glass, IMHO. Until you shatter one of those puppies, you really will not know what I am talking about. Potentially lethal.

 

[High_Noonan]

The Norgren valve has 1/4" NPT female inlet & outlets and it has two 1/8" NPT female gauge ports which can also be used for attaching additional kegs to the same spunding valve with the addition of check valves. Two socket head plugs are included with the valve to plug the gauge ports if they aren't used. The valve disassembles without tools for cleaning. The adjustment knob is like that on the current Tap-Rite regulators, pull out to adjust, push in to lock.

CS223, I finally gathered all my parts and assembled my spunding valve. I then pressurized a corny and attached the valve. I heard and felt CO2 escaping from the socket head plugs. What the heck sized Allen key do you need on these things? I'm fairly certain that my ancient set is standard, not metric, but none of them fit to drive them home. Also, did you bother to tape the threads on these plugs?

 

[lud]

Yep...teflon tape.

 

[High_Noonan]

OK. I just tsped my plugs and it doesn't seem like there are any leaks.

Let me ask you this.
Cranked all the way counter-clockwise gives me shut-off?
So, dialling it clockwise is opening the spund and allowing pressure to escape?
Do I have that right?

Just making sure I have the logic right, as I am going to use it next weekend.

 

[lud]

You could try it on a pressured up corny to see which way is what.

 

[stonebrewer]

I think I prefer fermenting in a sanke. The cornies are just too small, my opinion. With trub loss, etc, it's less than a full keg. There's nothing at all wrong with doing it this way, mind you. Beats the crap out of siphoning. Lot's of pluses. But I think the sanke is the way to go. You can build a similar spud valve and use a keg tapper.

Very nice valves, though guys. I'll be curious to see if you don't move on to a sanke.

Cheers.

Can you point me to a diagram of a spunding valve for a sanke? That does seem the way to go to me as well...

 

[JuanMoore]

Can you point me to a diagram of a spunding valve for a sanke? That does seem the way to go to me as well...

A spunding valve is a spunding valve, so building one is the same either way. I have a couple, and I use them on both corny kegs and sankeys. To use one on a sankey, it's easiest to simply attach a spare sankey coupler, cap the liquid out port, and put the spunding valve on the gas in port. You'll need to take the little ball that acts as a check valve out of the coupler.

 

[stonebrewer]

A spunding valve is a spunding valve, so building one is the same either way. I have a couple, and I use them on both corny kegs and sankeys. To use one on a sankey, it's easiest to simply attach a spare sankey coupler, cap the liquid out port, and put the spunding valve on the gas in port. You'll need to take the little ball that acts as a check valve out of the coupler.

Thanks JuanMoore. I guess what I really meant to say is can you describe the rest of the parts to mate the valve to the keg...

You just have a new bundle of joy? Congrats if so!

 

[JuanMoore]

Thanks JuanMoore. I guess what I really meant to say is can you describe the rest of the parts to mate the valve to the keg...

You just have a new bundle of joy? Congrats if so!

Ah, gotcha. I used 1/4" flare fittings and swivel nuts like the OP. That way they can be secured to either a ball lock QD or to a 1/4" flare tailpiece for the sankeys. The flare tailpieces are really nice for being able to easily switch between cornies and sankeys. Here's what they look like-
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/SANKE-THREADED-FLARE-FITTING-ADAPTER-P1702C118.aspx

And yes, thank you, we just brought him home from the hospital a couple days ago.

 

[stonebrewer]

Ah, gotcha. I used 1/4" flare fittings and swivel nuts like the OP. That way they can be secured to either a ball lock QD or to a 1/4" flare tailpiece for the sankeys. The flare tailpieces are really nice for being able to easily switch between cornies and sankeys. Here's what they look like-
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/SANKE-THREADED-FLARE-FITTING-ADAPTER-P1702C118.aspx

And yes, thank you, we just brought him home from the hospital a couple days ago.

Congrats and I hope he sleeps through the night for ya soon!! Got 5 kids myself, youngest is 4...

I have that flare fitting for the sanke so looks like I have everything I need to make this work for either my sanke or my corny kegs. I am going to give this a try in the next couple of weeks and see how it goes. Looks like yet another improvement to my process I will be happy with ( just upgraded to a plate chiller last month and am loving it!).

Tony

 

[High_Noonan]

CS223,
I have my first pressurized ferment going (I think), but I am not seeing any pressure reading on the gauge.
I am using a two-keg setup with a quart of boiled water in the bottom of the "blow-off" keg. I removed the poppet from the "in" post on the fermenting keg and the "out" post of the blow-off keg. These are connected via the proper ball-lock QDs and a short length of clear hose.
I do get gas escaping when I hit the pressure relief valve on the blow-off keg, but not from the fermenter. I do not see any evidence of krausen in the hose, but I did use Fermcap-S in the fermenter for the first time ever.

Does it normally take a while to get pressure to read, or do I have a problem? I had tested the setup prior to "going live" with it and had the valve/gauge set to 12.5# from a spare leg off my CO2 regulator.

 

[CS223]

CS223,
I have my first pressurized ferment going (I think), but I am not seeing any pressure reading on the gauge.
I am using a two-keg setup with a quart of boiled water in the bottom of the "blow-off" keg. I removed the poppet from the "in" post on the fermenting keg and the "out" post of the blow-off keg. These are connected via the proper ball-lock QDs and a short length of clear hose.
I do get gas escaping when I hit the pressure relief valve on the blow-off keg, but not from the fermenter. I do not see any evidence of krausen in the hose, but I did use Fermcap-S in the fermenter for the first time ever.

Does it normally take a while to get pressure to read, or do I have a problem? I had tested the setup prior to "going live" with it and had the valve/gauge set to 12.5# from a spare leg off my CO2 regulator.

With that much volume to pressurize, it's probably going to take a while. I set my valve to 5 PSI on an empty corney then put it on the fermenter. I just pitched some Notty on a Centennial Blonde now sitting @ 65F and it hadn't yet hit 5 PSI after 24 hours, the needle moved off the peg though. That's without a blow-off keg. It's going to depend on how fast your fermentation kicks in, and the blow-off keg is quite a volume to pressurize. I wouldn't sweat it.

One thing I might have done differently was to leave the poppet in the fermenter, that way once you were certain after a couple days that there was no krausen leaving the keg, you could move the valve directly to the fermenter. I'd be a little concerned that there would be insufficient pressure to carb with using a blow off keg. Lots of variables though. You want to crank up the pressure when you get to within 4-6 points of FG based on the carb chart. You can leave it set at a lower pressure until you reach that point.

On the same note, you can plumb it it so your fermenter self-racks itself to the secondary. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere in a thread, I don't know how much that would gain in the way of leaving trub behind. I haven't tried it, I just cold crash and counter pressure rack to the serving keg.

Think I'm going to try shaking the keg, tilt it in the keezer so the OUT port is down, cold crash and then rack to the serving keg. I think if I do it this way, I won't have to toss as much beer when I transfer because the cake will be away from the dip tube. I didn't bother to bend my dip tubes.