murky cider

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warboss100

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i have been producing cider for about a year now, and was always using dextrose in the initial fermentation, i have made a batch only 8 litres using dark brown sugar instead of dextrose at the beggining.
it has been a while and still isn't clearing up, i have used finings to try and clear it but it isn't working.

any suggestions?
 

Yooper

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Did you use any pectic enzyme? I'm wondering if it's a pectin haze. What kind of finings did you try, and what temperature is the cider been fermenting at?
 
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warboss100

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i did not use any pectic enzyme,
i used Youngz wine finings,
it was fermenting at roughly 50-55c roughly.

im guessing its to do with the dark brown sugar, but i didnt think at the time whether it would haze my brew
 
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warboss100

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sorry to change my current train of thought but my current 8L of cider is 13% ABV could i mix in another 4-8L of apple juice to my cider to increase my yield, and obviously lower the alcohol level or would it go weird?

as im not sure if it would work or not. "im not trying to lower my 13% ABV but i feel it would be better for me to get more cider at a lower %"
 

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Well, the additional apple juice would ferment, so that would add some alcohol to it, but certainly not 13%, maybe 5% or so. So, you could add some juice, and consider it sort of diluting it.

I never heard of brown sugar causing haze- I still think you may have a pectin haze and some pectic enzyme should fix that. I never heard of Young's wine finings, but have used sparkelloid and isinglass to fine wines and ciders with good effect.

Did you actually mean it fermented at 50C? I think you mean 50F, but just checking. Sometimes sticking a hazy cider or wine into the fridge will have it drop clear- but only do that when it's done fermenting.
 
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warboss100

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oh okay well i shall add a couple of litres of apple juice then :)

i have a shop just round the corner so i shall pick up some pectin enzyme, how much would i need to add to each of my demijohns as they each contain 4L of cider.

yes, silly me i did mean to put 50F not C woops :) was just trying to help as most people here are american but obviously didnt do anything lol

thanks alot mate, i shall add pectin enzyme tomorrow once i find out how much and if nothings good ill put it in the fridge :D:ban:
 

Blackhawkbrew

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To get back to your original question, I've have had my cider in secondary for two months with no sign of clearing. I went to my LHBS to get some pectin enzyme and the guy told me that it probably wouldn't work since the cider had already fermented. I should have stood my ground and said "well Yooper said that it would work!" but I caved. He sold me something called Super Kleer and was talking about positive and negative ions :confused: I also got some capden tablets and potassium sorbate to kill of the yeast and stabalize the cider. I have a little less than 3 gallons and had only had a 6 gallon carboy to secondary - this left a lot of head space and the guy at the LHBS was saying something about too much CO2. I did get a 3 gallon carboy for re-racking. He also suggested a wine conditioner for back sweetening.

My question is - did I get hosed, or does this sound legit? I felt very vulnerable in the store, since I'm new to this. I really trust the posts in this thread and value the opinions I've recieved.
 

Nurmey

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I have not used Super Kleer but I have used Sparkloid and it works great. I'm pretty sure it's the same sort of thing (possitive negative ion whatever). I think you will have clear cider in a few days (fingers crossed).
 
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warboss100

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well blackhawk i also went and bought some pectin enzyme too add to my cider as i got advice on here, its been 1day so far and no signs of clearing so we'll see..
and my cider has only been in secondary for about 6weeks
 

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Hopefully it'll work- supercleer and sparkelloid will help, usually, but you said you already used finings so that's why I didn't suggest them to the original question.

The positive/negative thing is true- so that's why it's good to try to figure out where your haze is coming from.

Let us know if it's not clear in a week- we'll try to figure out something! (Try to get it really cold if you can- that helps the most often)
 

Blackhawkbrew

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So I just checked my cider and nothing! It's still as cloudy as it was before I pitched the Super Kleer :mad: Hopefully I'm just not being patient enough with it. If it's not clear in a week should I try transferring it again since I put the potasium sorbate and the campden tablets in?

I just need to learn to be more patient :D
 

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Well, give it at least a week. Usually, I see some clearing in a couple of days, but give it a week anyway.

You sorbated and sulfited, while it was still cloudy? Or did the stabilization cause the cloudiness?
 
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warboss100

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its been 4days but ill wait a week, its still just as murky and i have used pectin enzyme "4days ago" both that and the finnings didnt do anything so far.

but i shall try and get it cold.:)
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Yes Yooper, I sorbated and sulfited while it was still cloudy. It was never anywhere near clear. It looks like things are falling to the bottom, so I'll just keep my fingers crossed and keep checking it every day (hour). You had also mentioned getting it really cold, how cold, like refridgerator cold?

Warboss, it looks like we're in a race to see who's clears first :fro:
 
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warboss100

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haha i see your right, well im happy the topic i started is doing good not just for me but also you :)
jope everything turns out clear:)
 

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Yes Yooper, I sorbated and sulfited while it was still cloudy. It was never anywhere near clear. It looks like things are falling to the bottom, so I'll just keep my fingers crossed and keep checking it every day (hour). You had also mentioned getting it really cold, how cold, like refridgerator cold?

Warboss, it looks like we're in a race to see who's clears first :fro:
Yep, refrigerator cold would be perfect. Even a bit colder- like 34 degrees- would help. The cold can cause the yeast to flocculate out, and my understanding is that proteins will also fall out after a length of time at a cold temperature. I've done that with some wines that just wouldn't clear on their own.
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Well Yooper, I wasn't able to fit my 3-gallon carboy in my fridge so I put it in my cold room in the basement. It stays in the low 60's to high 50's in there. I'll leave it in there for the rest of the week and see what happens.

I hope it clears soon, I want to do a hard lemonade in the 3-gallon carboy. I've read some recipes here using DME and some without. Any suggestions?
 

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I've only done it without- and it was good that way. I know Pumbaa was doing hard lemonade with DME, but he hasn't been around much in the last year or so. I don't know what kind of results he had.
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Do you have a recipe for a 3-gallon batch? I know I'll have to do a starter because of the acid in the lemonade. Would yeast nutrients help as well?
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Warboss, any luck with the clearing of your cider yet? I still have cloudy cider :mad: I'll give a a couple more days in my cold room (not really all that cold, low 60's high 50's maybe).

Yooper, any more suggestions? Is it bad to bottle cider while it's cloudy? This is real frustrating!
 

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Blackhawkbrew,
I used Sparkaloid on my cider and kept it around mid 50s and mine took a long, long time to clear.
I'd estimate it took about 4 weeks minimum to clear up.

Side note: The temp was in the 50s during the day. Some nights it would snow and the cider was in the garage so I'm sure the temps got even lower.
 

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Warboss, any luck with the clearing of your cider yet? I still have cloudy cider :mad: I'll give a a couple more days in my cold room (not really all that cold, low 60's high 50's maybe).

Yooper, any more suggestions? Is it bad to bottle cider while it's cloudy? This is real frustrating!
Well, 60's isn't really cold- I was thinking 30s or 40s if you could do it.

Let's see- you've added Superkleer already? Pectic enzyme?

I think you could try sparkeloid- that works for me in the dandelion wine that won't ever clear. But I think a month or so at cold temperatures would be preferable.
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Thanks Smogre. I guess it's that darn patience thing I have to get over! I know RDWHAHB.

Yooper, thanks for the reply. I thought maybe you would still be out celebrating the Wing's Stanley Cup victory! Congrats to them (You know how hard it is for me to say that ;)) Better them than the Pens.
 

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have you tried gelatin for fining? I haven't tried it on an apple cider, but it cleared up my strawberry wine in 2 days, pretty nifty.
 

Smogre

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Yeah man, I was definitely in your shoes with my cider.
I have a good amount of patience but sometimes I question myself and or my brew just like everyone does.

It seemed like it was cloudy right up until we had a gnarly snow storm and things got real cold. Then just like that, it started to clear up.

So you might try and get it cooler as Yooper mentioned. Seemed to work for me.
 
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warboss100

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just to keep everyone updated.

i added a campden tablet to my cider "as its only a 1gal carboy" and its been about 8-9 days now and ive looked as ive just noticed it has alot of dead yeast at the bottle maybe an inch.. so i rack it or leave all the yeast to drop down first?
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Warboss, FWIW I reracked mine this past weekend and still no luck. I'm still thinking of how I can get it much colder for a few days to a week. My neighbor has an old fridge in the garage that I may see if I can use. I also have a small chest freezer I might be able to use. Would a freezer be too cold?
 
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warboss100

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sorry no idea what FWIW is..

but you should try and keep it at 30's-40's, even though ive been kepping mine at room temp so far i will start to cool it down in the next couple days to speed up the process.

it is quite clear but not as clear as i want it, i have an inch of yeast on the bottle now but it has not all fell to the bottom yet, shall i rack or leave?
 

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sorry no idea what FWIW is..

but you should try and keep it at 30's-40's, even though ive been kepping mine at room temp so far i will start to cool it down in the next couple days to speed up the process.

it is quite clear but not as clear as i want it, i have an inch of yeast on the bottle now but it has not all fell to the bottom yet, shall i rack or leave?
If you have an inch, that's alot! I'd rack if you really had that much, but you could wait a week or so if you want to see if it'll finish clearing first.
 

Blackhawkbrew

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Warboss,
Sorry, it just means For What It's Worth.

I'm glad to hear your's is starting to clear a bit. I'm going to put mine in my chest freezer and see what happens.
 

Blackhawkbrew

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My 3-gallon carboy would not fit into my chest freezer. I put it in my neighbor's refridgerator last Thursday (6/12). It still has not cleared, and does not seem to be changing at all. I have seen, however, more sediment in the bottom, so things are still falling out I guess. Is there anything else to try?
 

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I've had batches clear in my fridge before. If you have a safe, unheated place, such as a garage, you can leave your carboy there during the winter.
 

Blackhawkbrew

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OK, I'm getting really frustrated with my cider!! I added a second thing of Super Kleer last week and NOTHING! I may bottle this stuff as-is later this week. It will probably be gone by the time too much setiment falls to the bottom of the bottles anyway. If I can be persuaded to hold off and bottle it later in the summer I will. Would a filtration system work? I may be streching for ideas now. :drunk:
 

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OK, I'm getting really frustrated with my cider!! I added a second thing of Super Kleer last week and NOTHING! I may bottle this stuff as-is later this week. It will probably be gone by the time too much setiment falls to the bottom of the bottles anyway. If I can be persuaded to hold off and bottle it later in the summer I will. Would a filtration system work? I may be streching for ideas now. :drunk:
Unfortunately, filtering won't work. You should only filter wines and ciders and beers that are already basically clear, to polish and filter out yeast. If you try to filter a cloudy cider, all you'll do is clog up your filter.

I think colder for longer will be the key. Keep it in that fridge for at least two weeks without looking at it.

The thing with finings is this- each time you use finings, if you're not using the "right" one (remember, the positive/negative thing), you'll actually make the clarity worse. Keeping it cold until it clears is the only thing I can think of at this point.
 

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