Munich Helles w Lutra Kveik... 72f

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Panderson1

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I am attempting this. Already brewed and 4 days into fermentation. Can't get the temps any higher or I would have.... maybe in the mid 80s (f). Yeast took off nicely.

Anyone tried this style with Kveik?

I think i'll let it sit for 10 days then lager it around 47f for a few weeks. Or maybe just keg it and let it sit.
 

hbarsquared

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One of my favorite recent brews is a faux Czech Pils with Voss Kveik. I don't have the equipment or patience for lagering, but a clean finishing Kveik produces a pretty reasonable facsimile.
 

hottpeper13

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I'm drinking a Munich Dunkle I fermented with Lutra,and a lager it's not. I tell everyone it's a brown ale and it's the best one I've made. I would think your gonna get a blonde ale. My Lutra ferments have been from 64* to 86* with no difference in esters that i can tell. when started low I bump them up to 76* to finish after 3-4 days. I don't care what they say about Grain to glass being fast,and they are drinkable in 12 days but after 4 weeks in my lagerator at 33* they shine.
 

WalletHocker

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What is meant by, "Munich Helles w Lutra Kveik" or "Czech pils w/ yeast X, Y or Z"?

Do you mean the grain bill of said style with a different yeast?

Is that really a thing? As long as you know you're not making that style...
 

VikeMan

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What is meant by, "Munich Helles w Lutra Kveik" or "Czech pils w/ yeast X, Y or Z"?

Do you mean the grain bill of said style with a different yeast?

Is that really a thing? As long as you know you're not making that style...

It's what all the kids are doing (and saying) these days. I call it the Lager Quasi-Participation Trophy. If I were dead, I'd be rolling over in my grave.
 

WalletHocker

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This I don't understand. Why not just say you've made an ale? Is there shame in such a thing? What benefit does sugar coating it have - an easy let down to admitting they don't have lager capability? It would certainly be a questionable thing to put on a brewers' resume. :confused:
 

VikeMan

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This I don't understand. Why not just say you've made an ale? Is there shame in such a thing? What benefit does sugar coating it have - an easy let down to admitting they don't have lager capability? It would certainly be a questionable thing to put on a brewers' resume. :confused:

Somehow, lager sounds cooler than ale. I think some of it comes from not knowing what a lager really is, and/or never having tasted a great one. But I think it's also a part of the "short and shoddy" brewing ethos. Why invest the money, work, and time when you can make "great" (ahem) beers without the investment? All it requires is setting the bar a bit lower, consciously or not.
 

Brooothru

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It's what all the kids are doing (and saying) these days. I call it the Lager Quasi-Participation Trophy. If I were dead, I'd be rolling over in my grave.
Ain't that the truth.

It. Won't. Be. A. Helles.

Some things just aren't right. High temperature fermented 'lagers' with farmhouse yeasts is one of them. I've got no complaints with Kviek yeasts. I've brewed with Hornidal and Lutra when they first came out. They have their place, especially if your setup doesn't include temperature control. My last grain delivery even included a couple packs of dried Lutra, as well as some Verdant, since I guess it's finally time I tried them.

But I've spent too much time chasing this elusive unicorn called Helles (and failing to achieve beer Nirvana) that I won't allow some Johnny-come-lately product to dissuade me from this quest of process purity 🎼 (...queue the theme song from "Man of La Mancha"...).🎹
 

Bilsch

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Holy cow! While reading this thread I was agreeing with everything and had to keep checking the address bar to make sure what forum I was on. I even liked 4 of the same posts as DmTaylor. What is happening?

Surely these are signs of the coming end times.
Dogs and cats living together.. Mass hysteria!
 

Bilsch

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While we're at it, then...
coffee Kölsches
imperial pilsners
honey/berry/whatever "heffes"
"Japanese" rice lagers

Wait.. what is wrong with Japanese rice lagers?
 

ebbelwoi

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Wait.. what is wrong with Japanese rice lagers?
At any Japanese convenience store, supermarket, or summer festival, you will find something called an American dog (アメリカンドッグ). At first glance, it looks like a short corn dog, and with a name like American dog, you expect it to be a corn dog.

But then you taste it, and it's sweet. Really sweet. You take a closer look, and you notice that it's made with donut batter, and there's no corn meal in it at all. This looks like a corn dog, but it is definitely not. I can't put ketchup or mustard on this. Who would put ketchup or mustard on a donut?

You wonder, is this what they think corn dogs really are? Or maybe it's just want they want corn dogs to be? Then you ask a Japanese person why they're so sweet, and don't have any cornmeal, and they tell you, "No Japanese people would eat them if they weren't sweet and had cornmeal."

And now we come to the American homebrewer's Japanese rice lager. Maybe it's made with two-row, a few boxes of minute rice, and handfuls of Sorachi Ace late in the boil, at flameout, maybe even dry-hopped. If you gave that beer to a Japanese beer drinker, are they going to think it's like a Japanese beer?

Japanese macro lagers (specifically Asahi Super Dry, Kirin Lager, and Sapporo Black Label) are adjunct lagers made with barley malt (traditionally at least 2/3 of the grist), rice, corn, and an unspecified starch. They are very dry, highly carbonated, hopped with bittering additions under 20 IBU, and don't have any flavor, aroma, or dry hops. They don't contain Sorachi Ace, except for maybe a trace in a Sapporo beer. You certainly won't find it in Kirin or Asahi beers.

People are going to call things what they want -- Lutra Helles, Japanese rice lager, whatever. I'm going to relax and have an Yebisu.
 

WalletHocker

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People are going to call things what they want...

People who desire something and don't have a means to that end will associate what they've accomplished with what they dream of. Like a small child pretending to be an astronaut and calling themselves an astronaut. Does this behavior advance the cause of NASA and lager ingredient and equipment suppliers? Only if encouragement is given to pursue the dream. So, yes, in that respect let them dream.

Now if only there existed a more precise recipe for those Japanese macro lagers...
 

balrog

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I have tried Voss, and get tangerine.
I have tried Lutra and get pear/white grape
I have neither time nor equipment for storing something for months at 30F.

And everyone is different

@Panderson1 I would be curious if you get pear/white grape tho.
 

Bilsch

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I have tried Voss, and get tangerine.
I have tried Lutra and get pear/white grape
I have neither time nor equipment for storing something for months at 30F.
And everyone is different

The thing is you can make a proper cold fermented lager with the correct finish and clarity without all the time consuming dogmatic homebrew lager processes everybody just blindly accepts to be the way it is.
 

balrog

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The thing is you can make a proper cold fermented lager with the correct finish and clarity without all the time consuming dogmatic homebrew lager processes everybody just blindly accepts to be the way it is.
Ok, without any dogma, or catma, how does one do that?

[Edit: before someone shrieks about being off topic, I admit that I am. Apologies. @Bilsch , feel free to point me in the right threaded direction. Vielen dank]
 

Miraculix

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Ok, without any dogma, or catma, how does one do that?

[Edit: before someone shrieks about being off topic, I admit that I am. Apologies. @Bilsch , feel free to point me in the right threaded direction. Vielen dank]
IF you would ask me, I would say, use the right yeast, ferment it reasonably warm (depending on the yeast, mj california lager can take room temperature, for example), keep it in the fermenter till the yeast is at least almost completely settled, bottle and prime, wait till the beer is completely clear, enjoy! use good ingredients and only noble hops.
 

Bilsch

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Use the right liquid Lager yeast for sure but more importantly healthy yeast. Pitch the correct amount and aerate because it needs this oxygen to do it's job. Ferment at 48-50F and if you've done everything correctly it will reach spunding gravity in 4 days and terminal gravity in 5 to 6 days where it will be fully carbonated and ready to chill to serving temp. In a week to 10 days it will be clear enough to serve. In another 7 days it will be crystal clear.

Of course there are many important process steps that will be necessary to hit these numbers such as pH at different points, kettle fining, settling before racking to fermenter, transferring only clear wort etc. But since this is not the thread for it I won't get into the details here.

The take away here should be that extended ferment times, diacetyl rests, cold crashing, gelatin and or tedious long conditioning times are neither required nor are particularly good for beer freshness and stability. The macros don't do that, why should we?
 
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Elric

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This is my pilsner that I put on tap this week. From brew to serve was just under a month. It was in the fermenter up to the day it went on tap. I could have kegged it earlier but I was waiting for a keg to free up. Used irish moss for finings and added yeast nutrient to the boil as well. Once chilled I transferred to fermenter draining my brewzilla dry, and added one pack of diamond dry lager yeast dumped straight into a 3 gallon batch of wort, only oxygenating was what was done by the pump during the transfer from brewzilla. Fermented at 52f for two weeks (started spunding at day 4). I didn't have to leave it for two weeks, but again, I wasn't in a rush. After two weeks dropped fridge to regular temp (38f) and kept it there until I freed up the keg (as it was already pressurized there were no concerns with negative pressure from temp drop). Beer was fully carbed and chilled so as soon as it was kegged it was ready to drink. This picture is from the day I kegged it. Super clear, well carbonated, very clean with no off flavors. Really not that hard nor time consuming.

7FA8720A-25C2-4378-A035-BEDEA8390D4B.jpeg
 
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Panderson1

Panderson1

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Wow this thread blew up. Sorry if i offended some of you (not really lol). I wasn't calling this beer a lager. I said "lager it" as in age it cold for a while....

I always thought to lager meant to age cold for a while. Is it not possible to lager an ale? I'm still learning, forgive me. :(

(Copied)
Lager. Verb. to age (beer) usually by storing in tanks at just-below freezing temperatures for several weeks or months.

Anyway i just sampled this. Definitely doesn't taste like a traditional Munich Helles. Definitely like a blond ale. Pretty clean yeast. Gonna let it sit a month and see what happens.
 
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Panderson1

Panderson1

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I have tried Voss, and get tangerine.
I have tried Lutra and get pear/white grape
I have neither time nor equipment for storing something for months at 30F.

And everyone is different

@Panderson1 I would be curious if you get pear/white grape tho.


Yes! There were notes of grape definitely. But pretty clean. I was thinking it was a little young and that would go away. We shall see.
 

camonick

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Wow this thread blew up. Sorry if i offended some of you (not really lol). I wasn't calling this beer a lager. I said "lager it" as in age it cold for a while....

I always thought to lager meant to age cold for a while. Is it not possible to lager an ale?
This thread is somewhat of an oxymoron. Yes, you can lager an ale and you are correct in the usage of that word in that sense. But your thread title is “Munich Helles w Lutra Kveik… 72f”. Munich Helles can’t be made with an ale yeast.
Definitely doesn't taste like a traditional Munich Helles. Definitely like a blond ale.
It won’t taste like a “traditional Munich Helles”, because although the grain and hops may have been appropriate for a Helles, Kveik yeast certainly isn’t.
 

VikeMan

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I'll just add that the verb Lager and the noun Lager are not equivalent. The best (noun) Lagers have been (verb) Lagered, but there is a more to a (noun) Lager than cold storage.
 
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balrog

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Sidenote -- my favorite story of my American study of German, 2 years in college; at the end of the final exam where we answered essay questions on Brecht and Kafka stories :eek:, as the professor collected the papers, said to us, "congratulations, now you know enough vocabulary to converse with a 4 year old German child".
 

Miraculix

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Sidenote -- my favorite story of my American study of German, 2 years in college; at the end of the final exam where we answered essay questions on Brecht and Kafka stories :eek:, as the professor collected the papers, said to us, "congratulations, now you know enough vocabulary to converse with a 4 year old German child".
German is really not easy. My girlfriend is from another country and learning the language, quite advanced already, but every time she asks me about something I realise how little reliable rules there in the German language. Basically everything is an exception from the rules :D

But Polish..... Man Polish makes German look like a four year old.
 

Brooothru

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German is really not easy. My girlfriend is from another country and learning the language, quite advanced already, but every time she asks me about something I realise how little reliable rules there in the German language. Basically everything is an exception from the rules :D

But Polish..... Man Polish makes German look like a four year old.
And English makes German look like child's play. Next to calculus, my most frustrating two semesters in college were spent studying German. That said, I really never understood English until I studied German. I did have two valuable takeaways from my studies that helped me immensely in adult life when traveling there:

"Ich hätte gern ein Bier." and "Wo ist die Toilette?"

Calculus, on the other hand, not so much!
 
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