Moving back to extract brewing, is there a best set-up?

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WannaB1

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I moved to all grain several years ago and currently have a Spike Solo set-up which I'm sure it's overkill for extract brewing. Is there any reason you wouldn't use it for extract since I already have it? If so, is there a "best" extract set-up? I do prefer to make 10 gallon batches.
 
Sounds like you already know the answer so I'll ask you to either rephrase the question or better still, since it sounds like you're just looking to streamline brew-day, tell us why and what it is you're interested in changing.
If you're just looking for improvements in general and want to DIY something, then off the top of my head I'd recommend buying some 400 or so mesh and making and 'oversized' kettle-filter.... less trub in the fermenter really nice.
:mug:
 
I just brew for the fun of it, no competitions, not trying to do anything other than have a few good brews on tap. I make more wine these days so I don't brew that often anymore and doubt I go back to brewing a lot. I've never really enjoyed all grain. For me it makes for a much longer day, especially with cleanup. I've also had more trouble than I care to admit with all grain and I'm not looking to chase the fix.

Simply I was trying to determine if there was any real downside to just keeping the solo and using it for extract brewing.
 
You have it, you're familiar with it and it'll do what you want to do. Unless you're thinking about selling it to recoup some of your money (maybe not much), I'd say keep it and brew on. Also, you might decide you want to do another AG occasionally and you'll still have what you need to do it. 🍻
 
Best extract setup by far, 5 gallon pot on kitchen stove, boil your hops in a smaller side pot, main pot doesn’t need to boil. You’ll be done in 30 minutes. However, the biggest issue I have with extract brewing is the taste of the beer. I just don’t like that extract flavor. So when I brew extract, I always try to mask the extract flavor with a heavy dose of hops for IPAs or specialty malts like chocolate or carafe if I’m making a stout/Porter. If I’m making a kolsch, Pilsner or something with a delicate flavor, I always go all grain.
 
Isn't there something about needing some malt extract to get proper hop extraction or isomerization? There was some reason to add a fraction of the malt extract at the start of the boil if adding most at the end.

I think whatever heats fast and transfers easily is ideal of extract brewing. The solo might already do that?
 
I think whatever heats fast and transfers easily is ideal of extract brewing. The solo might already do that?
For 2.5 gal batches (at packaging), I use an induction cook-top and a 4 gal kettle. I resize all-grain recipes to 3 gallons (end of boil) and a 30 minute boil. If I'm adapting an extract based recipe, I go back to the original all-grain recipe. I've seen some really bad conversions.



Some additional observations:

Briess DME and Muntons DME have different mineral content - different people will likely have different opinions on the flavor profiles from each product. There is some discussion on this in "I brewed a favorite recipe today".

LME is not DME. Buy it in oxygen barrier packaging, store it cool, use it promptly, and be sure to boil (or at least pasteurize) it.

"Extract is always darker than expected" (from the 2010s) turned out to be mostly stale LME with the possibility of basic cooking errors (e.g. not dissolving the DME or LME properly, stratification of the wort, ...).

A topic here at HomeBrewTalk to consider "AHA homebrewer of the year": he won with an extract based American Lager.
 
10-gallon pot, or you are going to struggle with boil overs.
One can "stove top" brew 5 gal extract batches with a 5 gal kettle.

Partial boil (roughly 1/2 water, 1/2 DME, all the hops) at start of boil, rest at end.

How to Brew, 4e, chapter 1.

The topic "I brewed a favorite recipe today" has some nice enhancements to HtB.
 
1 of the best things about extract brewing (aside from a quick brew) is you can use what you have on hand. If it will do AG, it will do extract just fine. In your shoes ( and I sort of am), I'd keep what I have and use it for whichever I want to do. I have a Mash and Boil with pump, and I've used it for both extract and AG. Your current setup will work well for both, also.
 
You could always just sell the Solo's basket to recoup some funds. I'm sure someone here would buy it.
One of points in #15 is that there is no "struggle" with boil overs when using a 5 gal kettle.


Plus weight and handling. A 5 gallon kettle with 2.5-3.5 gallons of wert in it is going to be much easier to handle and lift than 5 gallons in a 10 gallon kettle.
 
I've taught a lot of people the rudiments of brewing over the years and while most extract brewers are resistant to the idea at first, pretty much all of them agree that a half pound to a full pound of cane sugar really helps to lighten an extract beer and affords the hops the chance to shine through a bit.
 
No reason why you can’t use the Spike Solo for extract brews. I’ve done several in a Mash & Boil. Just turn the heating element off until your extract is thoroughly dissolved to avoid scorching. https://mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=703340&view=contentsBrowser

I also have an induction burner and 25’ immersion chiller I can use for extract batches. I tend to prefer a partial boil with a late extract addition because the smaller boil topped off with cold water doesn’t take as long to get to pitching temp.
 
I've taught a lot of people the rudiments of brewing over the years and while most extract brewers are resistant to the idea at first, pretty much all of them agree that a half pound to a full pound of cane sugar really helps to lighten an extract beer and affords the hops the chance to shine through a bit.
Can you clarify what you mean by using half a pound to full pound of cane sugar in an extract brew? When would this be added? Thanks
 
To the boil, just like all the other fermentables. It's more fermentable and less flavorful than malt extract.
Thank you. So the sugar is added in addition to the other fermentables, and you don't have to subtract any DME or LME from the boil. Or use additional yeast for primary fermentation. Just wanted to make sure I understood.
 
Thank you. So the sugar is added in addition to the other fermentables, and you don't have to subtract any DME or LME from the boil. Or use additional yeast for primary fermentation. Just wanted to make sure I understood.

Well, not exactly. All the fermentables need to be taken into account. A pound of table sugar will boost you up nearly 1% ABV. The concept of thinning an extract out is based on the fact that malt extract producers have no idea how fermentable or dextrinous the brewer is going to want the wort to be so it's right down the middle. If you want to make a beer with lighter body, you substitute some of the total fermentables with highly fermentable sugar. It's the opposite of adding maltodextrine or lactose (which is for adding unfermentable body).

In that regard, just adding a pound of sugar to all extract beers is not really necessary. It's helpful if you're constantly disappointed that the beer is too full bodied.
 
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We cool the wort, place even cooler water into the fermenter, stir in the sugar, add the wort, measure OG and temperature, pitch yeast.
Clean sugar? Well, it appears to be.
 
Well, not exactly. All the fermentables need to be taken into account. A pound of table sugar will boost you up nearly 1% ABV. The concept of thinning an extract out is based on the fact that malt extract producers have no idea how fermentable or dextrinous the brewer is going to want the wort to be so it's right down the middle. If you want to make a beer with lighter body, you substitute some of the total fermentables with highly fermentable sugar. It's the opposite of adding maltodextrine or lactose (which is for adding unfermentable body).

In that regard, just adding a pound of sugar to all extract beers is not really necessary. It's helpful if you're constantly disappointed that the beer is too full bodied.
Thanks for that information. In that regard, from a hypothetical standpoint, there is a thread on this site somewhere that delves into fermentable equivalents between using malt extract and grain (probably a website too, i haven't checked lately). From the standpoint of wanting to know in theory how much DME and/or LME to substitute for all grain or partial mash. So one can, in addition to substituting extract for grain or vice versa, also decide how much sugar to substitute for extract to affect flavor profile and body.

Which as you know is the beauty of brewing, especially home brewing. I'm not the best at it or even close, but I must say that I enjoy the flavor profiles of what I make over the commercial brewing companies.
 
Can you clarify what you mean by using half a pound to full pound of cane sugar in an extract brew? When would this be added? Thanks
The idea of adding 1/2-1lb of cane sugar to an extract batch is predicated upon the idea that extract has already been mashed, lautered, and condensed into extract. In that respect, it can only move in one direction in the brew house, becoming denser, darker, and more heavy than the original wort was (at the same gravity) before it was condensed into extract.

There are great ways to mitigate the above limitation, be it the Texas Two Step method, late extract, full wort boil (FWB), or FWB+late extract. Adding cane sugar is another form of mitigation, but it also hacks a bit of lightness into the process by diluting the wort a bit while still contributing alcohol to the beer. It's not a solution, but it's a pretty good cheat.

By substituting cane sugar for extract, you're trading a very flavorful, dark, and not fully fermentable product in the form of extract for a much less flavorful, much lighter in color, and mostly fully fermentable product. The upshot being that you can make a slightly lighter colored beer with a drier, more crisp, and more defined finish. It has been my experience that people prefer an extract beer that has been partially cut with cane sugar because it finishes more cleanly, drier, and more assertively. It allows your late hops to poke through a bit more and the finish closes down more assertively, letting your bitterness poke through a bit more.

Extract beers are widely criticized for having a "twang." Personally, I don't preceive it as a tawng. I'd argue, instead, that there's a fullness, or fatness to extract beers and sugar really helps with that. It just clears up the finish, making it more crisp and less "homebrew-ish."

As with all things in life, this isn't a panacea, it's a trade off. You don't get something for nothing, ever. Cane sugar from the grocery store will lighten and focus your beer up to a point. Eventually, as you keep adding more and more sugar, your recipe will tip over the ledge and become less beer-like. If you're brewing below 1.050 you can confidently add .5lb of sugar without a worry. If you're above 1.055 a full pound won't hurt you. In the olden days of yore it used to be common practice to add a can of extract and a few pounds of sugar to create a wort. This is how sugar got its bad reputation in the homebrewing community. My .5 and 1lb recommendations are very conservative. If you don't believe me, look at the sugar bills of Belgian Tripples or British ales. There's all kinds of room for you to explore with sugar before it becomes distracting.

As for how to add it, there's a number of ways. If you're full volume brewing, you can simply dump it in before or after your extact and stir like mad. Doing this will risk the sugar sticking to the bottom of your kettle and burning. Not ideal, but you might pickup some flavor and color from boiling the sugar--that's no bad thing, depending upon what you're up to. You can also withhold it until a convenient point in your late boil, then add it and stir like mad. You'll pick up less color and flavor that way, which is great if you're trying to lighten the beer as much as possible. Stout? Add it early. Hefe? add it late. IPA? Depends on what you're trying to do.

Frankly, I prefer to add my sugar off the boil in a separate vessel. To do this, I weigh my sugar in a vessel, then use a large 2qt measuring cup to pull wort out of the kettle into a large pasta pot. If you don't have a large measuring cup, just use your sauce pan to shovel your (boiling or not boiling, your call) wort out of the kettle and into the pasta pot. With the pasta pot filled with wort, you can now add some sugar, stir until desolved, add some more, stir until disolved, etc. If the wort in your pasta pot starts to become saturated with sugar and it becomes difficult to disolve the sugar, just dump the pasta pot into the kettle, stir like a mofo, then pull another volume of wort into your pasta pot and restart the process. Easy peasy. As a UK-focused brewer that uses a lot of homemade invert sugars, I've found this to be the cleanest, most accurate, and easiest way to add sugar to the boil.

I hope you found this to be useful and I hope you find it helps. Don't hesitate if you have further questions.
 
.......As for how to add it, there's a number of ways. If you're full volume brewing, you can simply dump it in before or after your extact and stir like mad. Doing this will risk the sugar sticking to the bottom of your kettle and burning. Not ideal, but you might pickup some flavor and color from boiling the sugar--that's no bad thing, depending upon what you're up to.......


My very first brew back in 2012 was the wheat beer extract kit from Northern Brewer. I didn't know what I was doing back then. Once I reached boiling, I added the liquid malt extract to my 5 gallon kettle, moderately stirring, with the gas still going. Needless to say, when I cracked the first bottle of my first home brew batch the beer looked more like a brown ale than an American wheat beer.

But it tasted delicious!
 
My very first brew back in 2012 was the wheat beer extract kit from Northern Brewer. I didn't know what I was doing back then. Once I reached boiling, I added the liquid malt extract to my 5 gallon kettle, moderately stirring, with the gas still going. Needless to say, when I cracked the first bottle of my first home brew batch the beer looked more like a brown ale than an American wheat beer.

But it tasted delicious!
I'd call that a win! Good on you!
 
From the standpoint of wanting to know in theory how much DME and/or LME to substitute for all grain or partial mash. So one can, in addition to substituting extract for grain or vice versa, also decide how much sugar to substitute for extract to affect flavor profile and body.
Once you switch over to all grain, you actually get to design the sugar profile aka fermentability by manipulating the mash temperature. There are still rare cases where you want extra fermentability and add simple sugars, but it's generally in very high ABV beers.
 
Since the original topic title is "Moving back to extract brewing", let's drift back that direction...

The "Texas Two Step" method seemed to have disappeared from the free portion of the internet. IIRC, it can be found in one of Chris Colby's books. The idea is to brew half the beer in the 1st batch, half in the second, and merge batches in the fermenter. In some situations, it has advantages over 'partial boil with late additions of extract & water'.

"Extract twang" is most likely stale LME. It may also be related to bad process/technique.

"Homebrew taste" most likely due to bad process/technique but could also be a bad recipe (overly mineralized wort) or perhaps slightly stale LME.

"Color": DME can deliver color toward the lower end of a style's range. Yes, it's not as light as "all-grain". So "darker than expected" is most likely bad color estimates. If it's a kit, it may be due to not re-estimating color after converting the recipe. Boiling "too hard" may also be a consideration.

"Brewers crystals" are a product that can be used to manage color (and mineral content). I gave up talking about it as the price per pound varies wildly between online stores. The stores that I use stock it at a price per pound that's equivalent to that stores DME ($9.50 for 3# bags).

Rice solids are a similar product.



How to create an "overly mineralized" wort; as an extreme example) imagine (because it doesn't exist at this level) a DME product with 50 ppm Na (Sodium) at OG 33. Make a OG 100 wort by using 3x the DME. The Na in the wort will be 3x as well (150 ppm).

For those who want to exBEERiment: Make a one gal OG 88 beer (your choice of style). For DME products, in addition to Briess: Home Brew Ohio (HomeBrewTalk sponsor) stocks Muntons DME; Williams Brewing (HomeBrewTalk sponsor) has a 3rd brand of DME that I have not tried; and MoreBeer's "flash brewing" DME is stated (by MoreBeer) to be different from other DME products.




Putting it all together ...

With DME, I brew 2.5 gal full volume batches in the kitchen (induction cooktop). With DME, it's shorter boils (max of 30 minutes) with a soft boil (Boiling Wort Visual Reference). I typically add sugar, brewers crystals, and DME at around 160F as I'm heating to a boil. The order is important as I can visually see if the sugar and brewers crystals have disolved or are stuck on the bottom of the kettle.

In the "I brewed a favorite recipe today" topic, OP describes how to disolve DME in a side dish when working with late additions of DME. I found that this technique works slighly better for Muntons that for Briess - but given some time (say 15 to 30 minutes) it works for either product.



and finally ...

A topic here at HomeBrewTalk to consider "AHA homebrewer of the year": he won with an extract based American Lager.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/aha-homebrewer-of-the-year.695096/

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