More yeast needed for bottle conditioning?

[DavidSwede]

Hi! I am new to all-grain brewing and have read a lot about secondary not really being the way anymore and instead just leaving in the primary for longer.

I have a glass carboy ive been using for primary and was thinking now to syphon into another vessel with a tap I can use to make bottling easier.

Anyway.... Im wondering as the brew has now been in primary for so long (~5 weeks) will there still be enough yeast in suspension for bottle conditioning? Would hate to prime as usual then find after a month or two the beer was flat. (I like bubbles!!)

I did do some searching for this but couldnt really find a specific answer.

Thanks in advance!

David.

 

[Gavin C]

Hi! I am new to all-grain brewing and have read a lot about secondary not really being the way anymore and instead just leaving in the primary for longer.

I have a glass carboy ive been using for primary and was thinking now to syphon into another vessel with a tap I can use to make bottling easier.

Anyway.... Im wondering as the brew has now been in primary for so long (~5 weeks) will there still be enough yeast in suspension for bottle conditioning? Would hate to prime as usual then find after a month or two the beer was flat. (I like bubbles!!)

I did do some searching for this but couldnt really find a specific answer.

Thanks in advance!

David.

No need to add yeast. There are hundreds of millions in suspension in the beer.

• Mix priming solution and bring to a boil (I use a microwave)
  
• Add to bottling bucket
  
• Rack beer to bottling bucket with a swirl created by the hose (gentle)
  
• Bottle from spigot using a bottling wand.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Anyway.... Im wondering as the brew has now been in primary for so long (~5 weeks) will there still be enough yeast in suspension for bottle conditioning? Would hate to prime as usual then find after a month or two the beer was flat. (I like bubbles!!)

The only time you need to add additional yeast at bottling time is for high gravity beers that have been in secondary for a long time. If, for example, you decide to do a Russian Imperial Stout which may sit in secondary for 4-8 months, the remaining yeast is almost certainly shot. You must add a neutral yeast to your bottling bucket or you'll have flat beer. But for most beers that have been in the fermenter 2-6 weeks you have plenty of yeast in suspension to carbonate the bottles. Just feed them a little priming sugar, warm them up to room temps and wait a week or so. OH, and don't pour all of the bottle into your glass! Leave the sediment in the bottom of the bottle or you'll be tooting like Thomas in the morning!

Cheers!

 

[sky4meplease]

There are a lot of variables that come into play here such as length of fermentation, yeast strain or whether the beer was cold crashed.
I found a dozen threads in these forums in February alone where Brewers were asking why there beer had no carbonation.
I don't think this is a coincidence.
My typical fermentation schedule is one week primary at target temp, one week ramping up temp to finish fermentation and one week cold crash to about 40 degrees before bottling (for beers that aren't dry hopped, secondary or lagered).
Every time I bottle I pull a sample after transfer to the bottling bucket for tasting and viewing under the microscope. 8 out of ten samples don't have any yeast in suspension and the other two don't have the necessary 19 billion cells needed to carbonate five gallons of beer.
Rather than stressing about it I keep a bottling yeast on hand and add fresh to every batch. These bottle/cask conditioning yeast work very fast and leave nothing but a powdery haze on the bottom of the bottle after fermenting the priming medium.
If you are fermenting cleanly and careful when transferring to the bottling bucket to leave trub behind it is a matter of time before you are under carbed or no carbed as a result.
My two cents.

 

[Gavin C]

There are a lot of variables that come into play here such as length of fermentation, yeast strain or whether the beer was cold crashed.
I found a dozen threads in these forums in February alone where Brewers were asking why there beer had no carbonation.
I don't think this is a coincidence.
My typical fermentation schedule is one week primary at target temp, one week ramping up temp to finish fermentation and one week cold crash to about 40 degrees before bottling (for beers that aren't dry hopped, secondary or lagered).
Every time I bottle I pull a sample after transfer to the bottling bucket for tasting and viewing under the microscope. 8 out of ten samples don't have any yeast in suspension and the other two don't have the necessary 19 billion cells needed to carbonate five gallons of beer.
Rather than stressing about it I keep a bottling yeast on hand and add fresh to every batch. These bottle/cask conditioning yeast work very fast and leave nothing but a powdery haze on the bottom of the bottle after fermenting the priming medium.
If you are fermenting cleanly and careful when transferring to the bottling bucket to leave trub behind it is a matter of time before you are under carbed or no carbed as a result.
My two cents.

Your methods are at odds with everyday practice and results. I have never had a bottle conditioned batch fail to carbonate after cold crashing. It is a non-issue. I chill the batch to ~33F and have done so after months of fermentation for certain batches. There are oodles of yeast in suspension.

While it is true that there are circumstances where the addition of a bottling yeast is warranted, the OP's situation does not in anyway meet the criteria.

Your scientific rationale is massively flawed. You are not able to detect the yeast so you assume they are not there in sufficient numbers. Specious reasoning at its finest.

I have never put a sample under the scope nor do I or most brewers do cell counts at bottling. Never had a problem with carbonation.

Your timeline for fermentation is completely arbitrary and the cold crashing temperature you mention could do with being a lot colder.

This is beginner question in the beginner's section. You are needlessly complicating things and disseminating very inaccurate information based on flawed reasoning and process.

 

[sky4meplease]

I am simply offering my experiences to the OP for consideration.
I have the science equipment and the experience to prove your theory wrong.
A dozen people come to these forums every month with carbonation issues and you keep telling them they have "hundreds of millions" of cells for bottling without any way to substantiate that claim.
The OP came to the beginner forums to ask whether he would need to add yeast for bottle conditioning his beer and you gave him a step by step tutorial on how to bottle. You could have just said you think he has enough yeast left in suspension because it works for you and you have never had a problem.
That's really all you have to offer.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I haven't bottled since switching to kegs several years ago. While I was bottling the only issue I ever had with a flat beer was with a RIS that I failed to add yeast at bottling. In fact, the main issues I encountered in my early brewing experiences was with over-carbonation. Tracked that back to poor temperature control leading to premature bottling - rookie mistakes now long fixed.

That being said, if the OP has had experiences with under-carbonated beer it certainly isn't a bad idea to add a little yeast to the bottling bucket. It won't hurt a thing and is cheap insurance. But if he follows the practices almost everyone on this forum has been doing for years and the bottles carb up properly then there is nothing he needs to do. If it isn't broken there's no reason to try to fix it.

Cheers!

 

[sky4meplease]

I just finished bottling an American Amber OG 1.060 brewed with Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale.
The transfer into the bottling bucket was pretty clean with just a few seconds of hazy beer going through the racking cane at the very end of transfer (likely the lower floc yeast from the top of the cake as I typically try to keep the cane out of the mud).
I mixed up my 5 gallons of transferred beer and pulled a 100ml sample.
I did a cell count and had 250,000 cells per milliliter. That is 1/4 of the cells required to properly carbonate beer as stated in White & Zainasheff's Yeast book ("1 million cells per milliliter to properly carbonate beer").
Had I left a little more beer behind in the primary fermentor I doubt I would have found any.
Not being sure of the health of the yeast that made it through I am going to give the yeast in my 100ml sample some food and see if they eat.
Would the 4.5 billion cells that made it to the bottling bucket have carbonated my beer? Probably. Would carbonation happen in a timely fashion? I'm not so sure.
Was it a good idea that I added fresh yeast before bottling?
I think so.
My next batch I am going to isolate a bottle without added yeast and do a side by side comparison to evaluate the difference.

Disclaimer: Wyeast 1332 is a high floc yeast. I am not a scientist but a simple homebrewer with science equipment that I use for my brewing hobby. I understand most home brewers don't go to these lengths to gather this information. I only offer this information to my fellow home brewers for educational purposes. I have gathered information from my fellow home brewers that has greatly improved my home brewing and I only wish to give back where applicable.

 

[DavidSwede]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. This is obviously not a competely agreed upon subject but information from both sides of the story is helpful.

Litrally just finished bottling, with no added yeast. In around 4 weeks i'll pop one in the fridge, wait a couple of days.... and let you know the results!

thanks again.

David

 

[slym2none]

*takes a drink*

 

[sky4meplease]

In around 4 weeks i'll pop one in the fridge, wait a couple of days.... and let you know the results!

Sounds good David. Looking forward to hearing the results.

 

[Gavin C]

Here is a bit on cell counts for anyone wanting to tackle that correctly. Again, entirely not needed prior to bottle conditioning.

Counting yeast in a sample

Without the appropriate staining medium (methylene blue) all you end up counting are bubbles in the sample as the hemocytometer will not accurately highlight an unstained yeast cell. EDIT: THIS POINT IS INCORRECT

For the OP. It is completely contra-indicated to stir a batch of beer after it is racked if you hope to minimize oxidation. Stirring is 100% not needed with correct racking process.

If oxidation does not concern you, stir away to your heart's content.

At racking make no effort to suck up any trub. You don't need it. The goal should be to leave all the trub behind in the FV.

Like so




Bottling is a simple task for a non-beginner. It really is not a topic on which the jury is out as you seem to be thinking, but don't take my word for it.

What I describe is normal, routine, everyday, uneventful, without problem practice for a batch of beer/cider that has been in a fermentor for 5 weeks. Absolutely no need to waste even $1 on additional yeast here.

• Do you need more yeast here? NO
  
• Will adding more yeast cause harm? NO*
  
• Should you stir beer and priming solution after racking the former onto the latter? NO
  
• Will cold-crashing prevent bottle-conditioning/carbonation? NO
  
• Will the use of fining agents in the fermentor prevent it? NO
  
• Is patience needed in bottle conditioning? YES
  
• Are there circumstances where adding yeast at bottling is indicated? YES
  
• Are correctly performed accurate cell counts needed to determine this? NO

3+ weeks is normally required to allow optimal carbonation, with higher ABV% beers/ciders taking longer.


*It might if an inappropriate yeast strain is used.

 

[kh54s10]

I am simply offering my experiences to the OP for consideration.
I have the science equipment and the experience to prove your theory wrong.
A dozen people come to these forums every month with carbonation issues and you keep telling them they have "hundreds of millions" of cells for bottling without any way to substantiate that claim.
The OP came to the beginner forums to ask whether he would need to add yeast for bottle conditioning his beer and you gave him a step by step tutorial on how to bottle. You could have just said you think he has enough yeast left in suspension because it works for you and you have never had a problem.
That's really all you have to offer.

I just finished bottling an American Amber OG 1.060 brewed with Wyeast 1332 Northwest Ale.
The transfer into the bottling bucket was pretty clean with just a few seconds of hazy beer going through the racking cane at the very end of transfer (likely the lower floc yeast from the top of the cake as I typically try to keep the cane out of the mud).
I mixed up my 5 gallons of transferred beer and pulled a 100ml sample.
I did a cell count and had 250,000 cells per milliliter. That is 1/4 of the cells required to properly carbonate beer as stated in White & Zainasheff's Yeast book ("1 million cells per milliliter to properly carbonate beer").
Had I left a little more beer behind in the primary fermentor I doubt I would have found any.
Not being sure of the health of the yeast that made it through I am going to give the yeast in my 100ml sample some food and see if they eat.
Would the 4.5 billion cells that made it to the bottling bucket have carbonated my beer? Probably. Would carbonation happen in a timely fashion? I'm not so sure.
Was it a good idea that I added fresh yeast before bottling?
I think so.
My next batch I am going to isolate a bottle without added yeast and do a side by side comparison to evaluate the difference.

Disclaimer: Wyeast 1332 is a high floc yeast. I am not a scientist but a simple homebrewer with science equipment that I use for my brewing hobby. I understand most home brewers don't go to these lengths to gather this information. I only offer this information to my fellow home brewers for educational purposes. I have gathered information from my fellow home brewers that has greatly improved my home brewing and I only wish to give back where applicable.

I have to agree with Gavin, Your processes are way different than norm...
I would say that less than 1% of home brewers make a cell count. I would also say that less than maybe 5% ever add more yeast at bottling in less than extreme conditions. Like a 10% beer that has been in secondary for 6 months or more.

It is great that it works for you but to suggest that the beginning brewer needs to worry about cell counts for bottling is doing them a disservice.

In red, 1) in most cases where people have carbonation problems it is either time (less than 2 weeks) or temperature (cold where the bottles are conditioning) that is the problem.
2) Again I am glad this works for you. But I would say unnecessary.

I have been brewing for 5 years. At least half of my 80+ batches have been bottled. Between 1.040 and 1.100 Original gravity. None have had yeast added and none have failed to carbonate.

 

[sky4meplease]

Gavin if you had ever looked at yeast cells under a microscope you would know that yeast and bubbles look nothing alike.
Staining cells with Methylene Blue is for determining whether cells are dead or alive not whether they are yeast or bubbles and a hemocytometer does not "highlight" cells but utilizes a grid for more accurate counting.
kh54s10 thank you for pulling numbers out of thin air like "less than 1% of home brewers make a cell count" and "less than maybe 5% ever add more yeast at bottling". That's what we need is more claims like "oodles of yeast in suspension" and "in most cases". You guys are doing some great work here.
Now in my defense, if you look back over this thread you will see that all I have done is present the findings from my lab (ok it's my kitchen). I am not telling anyone what to do or saying anyone is doing it wrong.
I know a majority of home brewers don't count cells and don't add yeast at bottling time. I have the equipment and the knowledge and I apply it wherever I see fit.
My research tells me I need 19 billion cells in five gallons of beer to "properly carbonate". If I can't come up with those numbers at bottling time then I add yeast and a majority of my beers need fresh yeast.

 

[Gavin C]

Staining cells with Methylene Blue is for determining whether cells are dead or alive not whether they are yeast or bubbles and a hemocytometer does not "highlight" cells but utilizes a grid for more accurate counting.

I have edited my above post to correct my error. Thank you for that.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I find these discussions both educational and entertaining. It is great to know that a person can count yeast cells if they need or want to. For the OP's purposes, and for everyone else's for that matter, there is no need to bother with it.

1. Make certain your beer has reached FG by identical SG readings over several successive days. (To avoid over-carbonation)
2. Thoroughly clean and sanitize or sterilize bottles, buckets, and everything else that will contact the beer during the bottling process. (To avoid introducing infections)
3. Add the appropriate amount of priming sugar to the bottling bucket. (Use a priming sugar calculator)
4. Rack the beer to the bottles and cap them.
5. Move the capped bottles to a preferably dark space at room temperature for 10-14 days.
6. Chill and enjoy.

And that, kids, is all there is to it. This is what home brewers have been doing for years with consistent success. I seriously doubt that anyone posting to this thread has found some previously undiscovered flaw in the process. There is, and always has been, more than enough yeast in suspension to carbonate those bottles. You can count on it.

If you are going to brew a high gravity beer that will sit in secondary for months you absolutely should add yeast at bottling. You don't need to count cells. Just do it.

If you experience problems with under-carbonation you should closely examine ALL of your processes. Don't just focus on yeast cells in suspension. But if it makes you feel better to add some yeast at bottling, it probably won't hurt a thing. It's your money.

Cheers!