Moo-Hoo Clone

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I have been playing around with this recipe on BrewersFriend and have come up with something I believe would be close to a clone. If this has been cloned before, please let me know as I did not find any yet and thought it would be a great beer to have plenty of.

I may not get around to brewing this till late summer in anticipation for winter, but I figure I could through this up here now for further discussion on the recipe/additions. Please feel free to offer any suggestions if you have had the beer and notice anything that is out of place.

Also, props to BrewinHooligan who helped look over this recipe with me! :rockin:

EDIT: Updated recipe per Spike's recommendations

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Moo Hoo

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Milk Stout
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.067
Final Gravity: 1.022
ABV (standard): 5.97%
IBU (tinseth): 29.05
SRM (morey): 40

FERMENTABLES:
9.75 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (67.9%)
1 lb - Flaked Oats (7%)
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (7%)
1 lb - Belgian - Chocolate (7%)
0.5 lb - German - DH Carafa III (3.5%)
0.35 lb - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (2.4%)
0.75 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (5.2%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Nugget, Type: Pellet, AA: 14, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 25.05
0.5 oz - Willamette, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 4

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Sparge, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

YEAST:
Wyeast - British Ale 1098
Attenuation (avg): 74%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 64 - 72 F

Fermentation:
Temp: 67 degrees F
Primary Time: 10-14 days
Secondary Time w/ chocolate: ?????

EDIT: Updated recipe per Spike's recommendations
Also, here are the nibs that were found by another member. Same company that Terrapin uses. Spike's recommendation was to use 8oz in 5 gallons.
http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shop/herbs-spices-wood-etc/cacao-nibs-ghana/


Here are some explanations for some of the things I choose for this recipe.
1) I wanted to use the UK roasted barley and 1098 as this is what is used in Buffalo Sweat and these beers seem to have similar characteristics (VBBS is the one that is close to moo-hoo, but the base recipe is the same for both).
2) I wanted to intially use a full pound of Lactose, but could not find the right balance of malts and Lactose to come up with the O.G. and ABV that was stated by Terrapin.
3) All grains and hops were listed on the Terrapin website, as well as the OG, ABV, and IBUs.


Please feel free to ask questions or give advice. This is something that I want to brew in the future, but do not plan to brew until August/September. By then, I believe that this community can come up with a legit clone of this wonderful beer. Cheers HBT! :mug:
 

TNGabe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
6,657
Reaction score
2,294
Email Terrapin. Can't hurt, might help. Failing that, I would think that the grains are listed on their website in order of amount used, which would change what you have planned. Listen to CYBI episode for WNB. There is an interview with Spike and you'll probably pick up a few tips or ideas for this one. I would think that commercially the beer is fermented out in 5 days tops and based off of how they make WNB, on the chocolate for another 2 to 3 days max.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Email Terrapin. Can't hurt, might help. Failing that, I would think that the grains are listed on their website in order of amount used, which would change what you have planned. Listen to CYBI episode for WNB. There is an interview with Spike and you'll probably pick up a few tips or ideas for this one. I would think that commercially the beer is fermented out in 5 days tops and based off of how they make WNB, on the chocolate for another 2 to 3 days max.

Thanks for the advice, I will have to check those resources out. I will try to email them about it, ive had hit and miss experiences doing this. I didnt think that WnB had choclate in it, just coffee. I wish I had stainless glycol chilled fermenters to produce beer this fast, but alas im stuck with carboys :D
 

ivegot2legs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
362
Reaction score
90
Location
Philadelphia
I've found that using cocoa nibs doesn't give you a strong chocolate flavour. Just like adding whole roasted coffee beans to the secondary doesn't make coffee. It will lend some colour, and a reminiscence of coffee, but not a strong flavour.

Did terrapin say if they are used in the secondary or in the boil? I think you need to add chocolate to the boil if you want real flavour.

I've been using cocoa paste (also called cocoa mass or chocolate liquor). This is ground cocoa nibs, and nothing else. It provides the most chocolate flavour possible, and has no added fat or oil. It's often used in baking and other practices.

The extra surface area, and ability to be "utilized" in the boil with provide a strong profile. But it is bitter, so the bitterness of hops and the sweetness of the final product need to be considered.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I've found that using cocoa nibs doesn't give you a strong chocolate flavour. Just like adding whole roasted coffee beans to the secondary doesn't make coffee. It will lend some colour, and a reminiscence of coffee, but not a strong flavour.

Did terrapin say if they are used in the secondary or in the boil? I think you need to add chocolate to the boil if you want real flavour.

I've been using cocoa paste (also called cocoa mass or chocolate liquor). This is ground cocoa nibs, and nothing else. It provides the most chocolate flavour possible, and has no added fat or oil. It's often used in baking and other practices.

The extra surface area, and ability to be "utilized" in the boil with provide a strong profile. But it is bitter, so the bitterness of hops and the sweetness of the final product need to be considered.

Great info on the cocoa nibs! The website doesnt say where the chocolate is used, but it kind of seems that they just use regular chocolate and not nibs like thay stated. Here is a link to the company that they use. There appears to be 2 different types of cocoa, 67% and 75%, so that is another variable. They also said they used cocoa shells which does not seem to be for sale to the public. I just emailed them so maybe we can get some clarification on when it is added, if they wish to offer any help.

http://www.oliveandsinclair.com/chocolate/double-chocolate-nibs.html
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I just switched some figures around to match the order that the website lists the grain, assuming they put them in order or grist %. This one does come out right at 6.00% instead of almost 6.1% ABV.

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.066
Final Gravity: 1.020
ABV (standard): 6%
IBU (tinseth): 29.32
SRM (morey): 40

FERMENTABLES:
10.5 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (74.7%)
1 lb - Flaked Oats (7.1%)
0.65 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (4.6%)
0.5 lb - Belgian - Chocolate (3.6%)
0.5 lb - German - Carafa III (3.6%)
0.4 lb - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (2.8%)
0.5 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (3.6%)
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
HOLY COW! I already got an email back from Terrapin saying that they forwarded my email to the brewmaster. He is out of the country until Monday but Im very surprised they responded so quickly. Now the fun part, waiting.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Any reason not to use a full pound of lactose?

So far, I havent been able to work it into the recipe to keep the 1.066 OG and still keep it at 6.00% ABV. My first thought was to use a pound, but havent found a way to make it work yet. I will continue to try though.
 

TNGabe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
6,657
Reaction score
2,294
Thanks for the advice, I will have to check those resources out. I will try to email them about it, ive had hit and miss experiences doing this. I didnt think that WnB had choclate in it, just coffee. I wish I had stainless glycol chilled fermenters to produce beer this fast, but alas im stuck with carboys :D


I don't recall if wnb has anything other than coffee, but nibs and beans have had similar extraction time in my experience and I can see a commercial brewery that uses both handling them similarly. I think how much flavor you get from nibs has a lot to do with the quality. If they're from a chocolatier rather than eBay or the LHBS shop, you'll get better result. I'm sure the shells, whatever those are, play an important role as nibs contribute roast character more than what most people associate with chocolate, although combined with the sweetness of lactose, may be perceived differently. But sounds like we don't need to speculate since terrapin sounds very helpful.

There is no reason you shouldn't be done fermenting most ales in 5-7 days at home. Healthy yeast, proper pitch rate, ramp the temp, blah blah blah.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I don't recall if wnb has anything other than coffee, but nibs and beans have had similar extraction time in my experience and I can see a commercial brewery that uses both handling them similarly. I think how much flavor you get from nibs has a lot to do with the quality. If they're from a chocolatier rather than eBay or the LHBS shop, you'll get better result. I'm sure the shells, whatever those are, play an important role as nibs contribute roast character more than what most people associate with chocolate, although combined with the sweetness of lactose, may be perceived differently. But sounds like we don't need to speculate since terrapin sounds very helpful.

There is no reason you shouldn't be done fermenting most ales in 5-7 days at home. Healthy yeast, proper pitch rate, ramp the temp, blah blah blah.

I think the biggest variable here is the chocolate additions, and that might just have to be figure out with trial and error. I really want to pick up some 1 gallon glass jugs to do experimental batches in and this one would be a great excuse to finally buy some. I have seem that most of my beers finish within a week, but I always let them go another just for good measure. Im still somewhat new to this, so that may change down the road but for now it works great for me.
 

BrewinHooligan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
4,240
Reaction score
1,697
Location
Mesa
I agree that the cacao nibs do not give a pronounced chocolate flavor. 5oz per 5 gal sitting almost a full week was what I used in my RIS most recently and it was very subdued. If I wanted something more chocolate forward I wouldn't hesitate to double that figure, YMMV. After reading about the cacao that they use, I am very curious to try that product. It seems like something that would give a lot stronger chocolate flavor than just straight nibs. As far as the OG vs. ABV with your recipe, I would focus more on attaining your goal ABV that the OG in regards to the lactose, but that is just me. I have never personally had the beer so I don't feel too qualified on making many suggestions but am very curious to see what you find and especially what the brewer sends as a response.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I agree that the cacao nibs do not give a pronounced chocolate flavor. 5oz per 5 gal sitting almost a full week was what I used in my RIS most recently and it was very subdued. If I wanted something more chocolate forward I wouldn't hesitate to double that figure, YMMV. After reading about the cacao that they use, I am very curious to try that product. It seems like something that would give a lot stronger chocolate flavor than just straight nibs. As far as the OG vs. ABV with your recipe, I would focus more on attaining your goal ABV that the OG in regards to the lactose, but that is just me. I have never personally had the beer so I don't feel too qualified on making many suggestions but am very curious to see what you find and especially what the brewer sends as a response.

At this point, I would consider just adding some straight chocolate from that company instead of nibs and shells. Hopefully I will get more info from the brewer and I very much look forward to seeing what he has to say about the grist.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I placed an order of ingredients this morning to do a 1 gallons recipe of this here soon so we will see how it turns out. Still waiting to hear from the brewmaster, but I figured I could keep myself busy in the meantime.

EDIT: I also just ordered a few bars of the Olive & Sinclair 67% cacao chocolate to make it official.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Just got the chocolate bars from olive and sinclair. I got the grains as well so i will be attempting a 1 gallon batch in the next week or so :D

ImageUploadedByHome Brew1392666696.885306.jpg
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
WOW! I am floored! I just got an email from Spike, Terrapins head brewer. Here is what he suggested. There is still a little work to be done, but he pointed me in the right direction!

Hey Ryan,

Try this.


2-row pale 65-75%
Flaked Oats 5-10%
Crystal 85 5-10%
Chocolate Malt 5-10%
Weyermann DH Carafa III 2-5%
Roasted Barley 1-4%
Lactose 5-10%

Hops for 30BU
Nugget
Willamette


For 5 gallons, I would use 8oz. of chocolate

Have fun!
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
After playing around with the new numbers, this is going to be the recipe I will try. Its a little higher OG of 1.067 instead of 1.066, but its comes in at the needed 6% ABV.

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Moo Hoo

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Milk Stout
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.049
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.067
Final Gravity: 1.022
ABV (standard): 5.97%
IBU (tinseth): 29.05
SRM (morey): 40

FERMENTABLES:
9.75 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (67.9%)
1 lb - Flaked Oats (7%)
1 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (7%)
1 lb - Belgian - Chocolate (7%)
0.5 lb - German - DH Carafa III (3.5%)
0.35 lb - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (2.4%)
0.75 lb - Lactose (Milk Sugar) (5.2%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Nugget, Type: Pellet, AA: 14, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 25.05
0.5 oz - Willamette, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.5, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 4
 

BrewinHooligan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
4,240
Reaction score
1,697
Location
Mesa
WOW! I am floored! I just got an email from Spike, Terrapins head brewer. Here is what he suggested. There is still a little work to be done, but he pointed me in the right direction!

Hey Ryan,

Try this.


2-row pale 65-75%
Flaked Oats 5-10%
Crystal 85 5-10%
Chocolate Malt 5-10%
Weyermann DH Carafa III 2-5%
Roasted Barley 1-4%
Lactose 5-10%

Hops for 30BU
Nugget
Willamette


For 5 gallons, I would use 8oz. of chocolate

Have fun!

That is so awesome, I love when brewers take the time to share information.
 

TNGabe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
6,657
Reaction score
2,294
Make sure you're using DH Carafa III and not the regular that you've got in the recipe.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I emailed Spike back about the chocolate addition and what he thought about using the 67% cacao bars that I bought from Olive & Sinclair. He got right back to me and said that they use nibs and not bars. Unfortunately, they dont sell nibs from that company online, so I will be playing around that that aspect of this clone attempt in my one gallon attempts.
 

TNGabe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
6,657
Reaction score
2,294
I emailed Spike back about the chocolate addition and what he thought about using the 67% cacao bars that I bought from Olive & Sinclair. He got right back to me and said that they use nibs and not bars. Unfortunately, they dont sell nibs from that company online, so I will be playing around that that aspect of this clone attempt in my one gallon attempts.

Have you looked into what effect processed chocolate will have on the beer? I'd think the oils will be a problem. The sugar will add a bit to the abv, any dairy might be a spoilage issue, etc.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Have you looked into what effect processed chocolate will have on the beer? I'd think the oils will be a problem. The sugar will add a bit to the abv, any dairy might be a spoilage issue, etc.

I have not, this will be part of the experimentation process. I plan to boil it the last 5 minutes on the first attempt. If that doesnt work, I will go to nibs.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377

rocketsan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2013
Messages
640
Reaction score
87
Is there someone who could suggest an extract version?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I hope to be finally giving this a try tomorrow. I still need to see if I have bungs for the newly acquired 1 gallon jugs, so if I do I will be attempting at least version, if not two. I will keep you all updated on the progress. Cheers! :mug:
 

rocketsan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2013
Messages
640
Reaction score
87
Still looking for extract version if someone can help...


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 

BrewinHooligan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
4,240
Reaction score
1,697
Location
Mesa
Still looking for extract version if someone can help...


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew


Most of the flavor is going to come from the specialty grains so you would at least have to steep them. If that's not an issue, I can convert the base malt to extract for you tomorrow.
 

MindenMan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
2,770
Reaction score
473
Location
Carson City
I suggest before you use cocoa nibs, roast a couple of them to see how much the flavor intensifies. I roasted mine, mashed them, poured vodka on them and let them soak for a week, basically making an extract to add to the secondary. FWIW, there is a company named "Star Kay White" that sells a very high quality highly regarded Chocolate Extract. I have learned the hard way when it comes to flavored beers: If you add your chocolate and vanilla flavors until it "tastes perfect", you're screwed. Yes, screwed. I didn't realize how the chocolate flavor would concentrate in the bottle, I didn't realize how the vanilla flavor would concentrate in the bottle, I didn't realize how much the apricot..., dammit. if you get my drift. You can always add something to your just poured beer in the glass, but you can't fix over flavored beer. Okay, maybe by diluting, but that is not my point. My second batch of Triple Chocolate Stout was over flavored, not like the first one, but still too much.
Chocolate Malt, cocoa powder (8 oz in 5 gallons) and 2 cups of Torani Sugar Free Chocolate syrup. I am guessing the "natural flavors" in the syrup included some sort of vanilla like extract, and my vanilla flavor was way over prominent.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Just got done with a 1 gallon attempt. Hit my predicted numbers perfect and already have it in the fermentation fridge. The boil smelled amazing with the chocolate in it, but damn did it want to boil over the entire time. Im assuming it was from the chocolate as ive never encountered that before. Good brew day and very much so looking forward to a sample of this in a couple weeks.
 

rocketsan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2013
Messages
640
Reaction score
87
Chocolate Malt, cocoa powder (8 oz in 5 gallons) and 2 cups of Torani Sugar Free Chocolate syrup. I am guessing the "natural flavors" in the syrup included some sort of vanilla like extract, and my vanilla flavor was way over prominent.


This was too much flavour?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 

Hello

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
11,415
Reaction score
3,402
Location
Raleigh
Just got done with a 1 gallon attempt. Hit my predicted numbers perfect and already have it in the fermentation fridge. The boil smelled amazing with the chocolate in it, but damn did it want to boil over the entire time. Im assuming it was from the chocolate as ive never encountered that before. Good brew day and very much so looking forward to a sample of this in a couple weeks.

I am excited to see your results. My milk chocolate stout is good but wasn't modeled after this. I used husks in the mash and will rack over nibs.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
I am excited to see your results. My milk chocolate stout is good but wasn't modeled after this. I used husks in the mash and will rack over nibs.

Im thinking that I wont get close enough until I use nibs, but wanted to try the first attempt without since I didnt have any on hand. Its fermenting away nicely right now :D
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Rebel Brewing near Nashville sells nibs from Olive and Sinclair (also from Nashville).

I happened to be placing an order for the MooHoo clone on Rebelbrewer.com and found it:

http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shop/herbs-spices-wood-etc/cacao-nibs-ghana/

The wife will be happy if this clone turns out as good as it sounds.

Thanks for the effort!!

Thanks for the info! Also, Spike mentioned that 8oz of nibs would be the amount for a 5 gallon batch, so you would need two of those packs since they are only 4 oz.
 
OP
OP
finsfan

finsfan

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
14,033
Reaction score
3,377
Well, I took my first sample today after almost a month. Its stuck at 1.030 and doesnt taste even remotely similar. Boiling the chocolate seemed to cause a huge roasty flavor and not much chocolate at all. Im probably going to dump it and try again but with the nibs this time. Glad it was only one gallon.
 
Top