British Golden Ale Miraculix Best - Classic English Ale

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thehaze

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z-bob S-33 is actually a fine yeast - just adjust your expections in terms of attenuation, flocculation and intensity of esters. It can attenuate high if you treat it right, it can settle to the bottom of the bottle/keg, if you give it time and use restraint *if dry hopping and it does have a pleasent ester profile - it's just not as proeminent as let's say the Verdant yeast. I have found it to possibly be sensitive to hop creep - it did happen for me to get 81% attenuation with S-33 with a Pale Ale that was dry hopped with 170 gr / 6 oz hops. I mashed it low at around 64-65C/147-149F and there was only Pilsner malt in the grainbill. Other than that, it works well in any style of " ale ".
 
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I just finished rereading the whole thread again, for inspiration. My last English-ish beer was a clown beer; the typical American problem of too much of everything :) Too much alcohol, too much crystal malt, too much dark invert. It was hard to drink unless I either drank it ice cold or mixed it with a light lager to dilute it (then it was actually pretty good, but probably still wrong)

Anyway. How would the original recipe be with S-33 yeast? (I know Pub yeast is the essential ingredient, so it won't be the same beer) I just found a stash of yeast packets and there were 5 or 6 packets of S-33 in there. Since they are a couple of years old, I'll use Go-Ferm to rehydrate. I think S-33 is the old Edme strain, and even tho' they call it "Belgian" it's actually a close cousin of Windsor ale yeast. And I'll try to get the right crystal malt instead of substituting the right color American crystal.
I guess it will be ok. Never used it myself, but for what I've read about it, it should work ok-ish. If I would need to choose a dry yeast, I would go for verdant IPA for this.
 

ba-brewer

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After seeing the post about a "Belgian" yeast I figure I should post about my golden syrup vs corn sugar experiment. My experiment was a bust as my English ale immigrated to Belgium sometime after packaging. First I thought it was only the corn sugar half then the golden syrup started showing a phenolic flavor and aroma. Although not the expected flavor profile it was still a nice beer and did not dump it.

I will rebrew this beer again but without experimenting and hopefully without getting it contaminated.

The pictures are from a couple PET bottles I used to test carbonation progression.
IMG_2992 - Copy.JPG

IMG_2993 - Copy.JPG
 
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Miraculix

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After seeing the post about a "Belgian" yeast I figure I should post about my golden syrup vs corn sugar experiment. My experiment was a bust as my English ale immigrated to Belgium sometime after packaging. First I thought it was only the corn sugar half then the golden syrup started showing a phenolic flavor and aroma. Although not the expected flavor profile it was still a nice beer and did not dump it.

I will rebrew this beer again but without experimenting and hopefully without getting it contaminated.

The pictures are from a couple PET bottles I used to test carbonation progression.
View attachment 745882
View attachment 745883
How unfortunate. Would have been nice to see the difference between these two sugars :(
 

kmarkstevens

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After seeing the post about a "Belgian" yeast I figure I should post about my golden syrup vs corn sugar experiment. My experiment was a bust as my English ale immigrated to Belgium sometime after packaging. First I thought it was only the corn sugar half then the golden syrup started showing a phenolic flavor and aroma. Although not the expected flavor profile it was still a nice beer and did not dump it.
bwahahahahaha. I feel your pain. I've learned my lesson about being lazy with sanitizing the siphon on siphonless fermenters. They, too, often decided to immigrate to Brussels.
 
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Miraculix

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bwahahahahaha. I feel your pain. I've learned my lesson about being lazy with sanitizing the siphon on siphonless fermenters. They, too, often decided to immigrate to Brussels.
We've all been there :D
 

Northern_Brewer

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How would the original recipe be with S-33 yeast? (I know Pub yeast is the essential ingredient, so it won't be the same beer) I just found a stash of yeast packets and there were 5 or 6 packets of S-33 in there. Since they are a couple of years old, I'll use Go-Ferm to rehydrate. I think S-33 is the old Edme strain, and even tho' they call it "Belgian" it's actually a close cousin of Windsor ale yeast.
I guess it will be ok. Never used it myself, but for what I've read about it, it should work ok-ish. If I would need to choose a dry yeast, I would go for verdant IPA for this.
I'd tend to agree with Miraculix on this one, at least based on my experience of Windsor. Which is OK, fine for weekday drinking, but probably not what I'd use if I was out to impress. And FWIW, Windsor drops well but doesn't flocculate, so you just need to be careful when dispensing it, I assume S-33 is similar.
 

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I have "heard" that a lot of English breweries pitch some Nottingham late in the fermentation to hit FG and to flocculate out the yeast. I have also "heard" that English breweries tend to use clarity ferm as well to clear the beer (and make reduced gluten).

My palate is not a fan of Windsor, but Notty is definitely a top contender for my "if I could only brew with one yeast for the rest of my life" yeast.

That said, what the hell, why not use up some old yeast and see what it tastes like? I've done less well thought out things before. ;)
 

Northern_Brewer

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I have "heard" that a lot of English breweries pitch some Nottingham late in the fermentation to hit FG and to flocculate out the yeast. I have also "heard" that English breweries tend to use clarity ferm as well to clear the beer (and make reduced gluten).
I'm not sure it's "a lot", but it certainly happens.

Notty is one of those love/hate yeasts, some people seem to really not get on with it.
 
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Miraculix

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I like it for clean beers, but it really steals hop flavour. I made comparisons and everything I used it in had remarkably less dry hop/late addition hop flavour and aroma than for example us05 beers. So at long as it's not a really hoppy beer, I like it.
 
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Miraculix

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Gentleman and very gentle women,

I was so sure that I had enough Pale ale or MO in my storage that I did not check up until... brewday. And of course, I had almost zero MO left. So here it is, the new Miraculix Best -Kitchen Sink Edition!

Pilsener with a dash of MO as the base, followed by Perle Hops and Hallertau Mittelfrüh. This is a true English/German friendship celebration :D

I added a bit of Dark wheat (to me it is similar to midnight wheat, quite neutral but dark), to lower the colour. I also simplified the mash schedule a bit, only three steps, first at 56C for proteins to be chopped into pieces (I always get chill haze these days, trying to get rid of it), 2nd at 65C for the sugars and 3rd at 77C for mashout and glyco-protein production (foam enhancing).

It is already happily bubbling in the kitchen. A09 is a quick starter, if it is reasonably fresh. The batch is about 20l big and had about 85% efficiency. BIAB ftw!

The invert No 2 is actually homemade invert, but There is no way of hacking that into brewers friend. Also, the Gladfield flaked spelt is actually just plain wholegrain Spelt flour.

As you can see there are 2 Crystal malts involved, this is becasue I wanted to clear my storage a bit, did not have enough of the Premium English, so I added some of the Heritage Crystal. They are actually quite different so I think this makes even sense flavour-wise, they should complement each other quite well. Premium is more of a traditional criystal mal, with sweetness and caramel and heritage is a bit astringent if overused, darker, more intense and almost zero sweetness.

I was also quite brave and got into English water territory with this regarding water chemistry. 7g gypsum and 6g Calciumchloride. Plus Vitamin C, but I will make a whole thread for this one, once I finished this batch. Looks like a total game changer to me, but I have to at least verify with this second batch using it.

Original Gravity: 1.047

Final Gravity: 1.014

ABV (standard): 4.4%

IBU (tinseth): 28.8

SRM (morey): 12.6

Yeast: Imperial Yeast - A09 Pub

3,835 g
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
2,500 g Bestmalz - BEST Organic Pilsen Malt 37265.2%
325 g United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale 383.758.5%
300 g Gladfield - Flaked Spelt 32.21.77.8%
230 g Simpsons - Premium English Caramalt 32.623.046%
250 g GB - Invert Sugar #2 36256.5%
60 g The Swaen - Blackswaen Black Wheat 364001.6%
170 g Simpsons - Heritage Crystal 32664.4%

Hops:

Amount Variety Type AA Use Time IBU Bill %
25 g Perle Pellet 8.9 Boil 45 min 23.0138.5%
40 g Hallertau Mittelfrüh Leaf/Whole 3.9 Boil 10 min 5.7961.5%

Mash Guidelines:

Temp Time
56 °C 15 min
65 °C 45 min
77 °C 15 min
 
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Miraculix

Miraculix

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@Miraculix , what is the Vitamin C for?
It is an antioxident. I used it in one very hoppy american amber and this amber was outstanding. My best american beer so far. The hops do not fade with time (still got half of the batch in bottles and keep monitoring it, it is not that old though yet), the malt character is spot on and the dreaded almond flavour, which I am sometimes experiencing in my brews is not there at all. I added it to the water before doughing in, it basically is a sacrificial substance. If oxygen is present, it will oxidise the vitamin c first, so that the other easy to oxidise substances are not affected. I only used it in one brew so far, so I am not willing to start the thread about it yet, but at the moment it looks like a game changer to me. I have talked to a professional food chemist (working in the buisiness since decades), and he gave me good insights on it as well. I got the idea from the "group of brewers that shall not be mentioned in this thread", it looks like the stuff alone already fullfills what they are trying to achieve in every step with, sometimes quite obscure or let's call it "creative" meassures.

I will start a new thread once this batch turns out good as well. Easy meassurement, if you want to try it on your own: per 20l in the fermenter, I used 3.5g of vitamin C, added to the water. If I would have a lot of boil off, I might increase this to 4g per 20l in the fermenter.
 

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It is an antioxident. I used it in one very hoppy american amber and this amber was outstanding. My best american beer so far. The hops do not fade with time (still got half of the batch in bottles and keep monitoring it, it is not that old though yet), the malt character is spot on and the dreaded almond flavour, which I am sometimes experiencing in my brews is not there at all. I added it to the water before doughing in, it basically is a sacrificial substance. If oxygen is present, it will oxidise the vitamin c first, so that the other easy to oxidise substances are not affected. I only used it in one brew so far, so I am not willing to start the thread about it yet, but at the moment it looks like a game changer to me. I have talked to a professional food chemist (working in the buisiness since decades), and he gave me good insights on it as well. I got the idea from the "group of brewers that shall not be mentioned in this thread", it looks like the stuff alone already fullfills what they are trying to achieve in every step with, sometimes quite obscure or let's call it "creative" meassures.

I will start a new thread once this batch turns out good as well. Easy meassurement, if you want to try it on your own: per 20l in the fermenter, I used 3.5g of vitamin C, added to the water. If I would have a lot of boil off, I might increase this to 4g per 20l in the fermenter.
@Miraculix did you use asorbic acid as I have seen in some other threads on here, or another form of vitamin c? Did you add to mash water pre-mash as it sounds in your post? Did you do anything post boil or at packaging?

I am very curious about your process as I have been experiencing oxidation in my light beers and am looking for ways to limit it's effects. I bottle exclusively and kegging is not an option so closed transfer doesn't really work for me. I await your thread about this with giddy anticipation.:yes:

Cheers!
 
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Miraculix

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@Miraculix did you use asorbic acid as I have seen in some other threads on here, or another form of vitamin c? Did you add to mash water pre-mash as it sounds in your post? Did you do anything post boil or at packaging?

I am very curious about your process as I have been experiencing oxidation in my light beers and am looking for ways to limit it's effects. I bottle exclusively and kegging is not an option so closed transfer doesn't really work for me. I await your thread about this with giddy anticipation.:yes:

Cheers!
Just plain old ascorbic acid thrown into the water, together with the water salts. So basically pre mash. I think that the dosage is high enough that there is enough ascorbic acid in the final product left. My last hoppy amber ale tastes like it actuallly seems to work like anticipated.

However, I do not know how oxiginating the wort pre yeast pitching affects the ascorbic acid as I do not oxiginate the wort actively. I just splash around a bit while transferring from boiling pot to fermenter, that`s it. I could imagine that actively oxiginating the wort might use up some more of the ascorbic acid, if not all. I simply do not know. So maybe in this case, splitting the ascorbic acid into two doses, let`s say, 2/3 into the water pre-mash and 1/3 into the actively fermenting wort 24h after pitching the yeast might be a good idea?

Or maybe the oxygen will be used up quick enough by the yeast anyway? I don't know, but let us wait for the final thread to discuss these topics. For now, you can just try what I wrote above, the 3,5g ascorbic acid pre mash, per 20 liter wort in the fermenter. That should do the trick for you, especially if you are not using pure O2.

I am thinking about brewing an american light lager to test this idea further.....

Anyway, what you should do when bottling is minimising headspace. 5mm air in the bottle is enough. Do not go much lower, as bottles might burst when temperature changes due to expanding liquids, but 5mm is enough. This on it's own reduces the oxigen expossure in the bottle significantly. Ich checked it myself and there are a lot of people who experimented with this and made great documentations with pictures that clearly show the positive effect on the shelf life of the beer.
 
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z-bob

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Anyway, what you should do when bottling is minimising headspace. 5mm air in the bottle is enough. Do not go much lower, as bottles might burst when temperature changes due to expanding liquids, but 5mm is enough. This on it's own reduces the oxigen expossure in the bottle significantly. Ich checked it myself and there are a lot of people who experimented with this and made great documentations with pictures that clearly show the positive effect on the shelf life of the beer.
When I bottle, I top up the last little bit rather vigorously so the neck of the bottle fills up with foam from the release of dissolved CO2. Then I put the cap on. There is no oxygen left in the headspace because the foam displaces it. HTH :)
 
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Miraculix

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When I bottle, I top up the last little bit rather vigorously so the neck of the bottle fills up with foam from the release of dissolved CO2. Then I put the cap on. There is no oxygen left in the headspace because the foam displaces it. HTH :)
If you have enough dissolved co2 in there then yes, this should work very well. But I doubt a little bit that it is really just co2 coming out of suspension creating that foam. I think it might be a mix of air getting trapped in bubbles and co2 coming out of solution. Somebody actually tried that workflow in one of the documented experiments here somewhere and is was far less successful than limiting headspace.
 
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ncbrewer

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If you have enough dissolved co2 in there then yes, this should work very well. But I doubt a little bit that it is really just co2 coming out of suspension creating that foam. I think it might be a mix of air getting trapped in bubbles and co2 coming out of solution. Somebody actually tried that workflow in one of the documented experiments here somewhere and is was far less successful then limiting headspace.
How/when you sanitize makes a difference, too. I still have Star San foam in the bottle when I fill it, so I'm pretty sure most of the foam in mine is air. But I do minimize headspace, and it seems to help.
 

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Just plain old ascorbic acid thrown into the water, together with the water salts. So basically pre mash. I think that the dosage is high enough that there is enough ascorbic acid in the final product left. My last hoppy amber ale tastes like it actuallly seems to work like anticipated.

However, I do not know how oxiginating the wort pre yeast pitching affects the ascorbic acid as I do not oxiginate the wort actively. I just splash around a bit while transferring from boiling pot to fermenter, that`s it. I could imagine that actively oxiginating the wort might use up some more of the ascorbic acid, if not all. I simply do not know. So maybe in this case, splitting the ascorbic acid into two doses, let`s say, 2/3 into the water pre-mash and 1/3 into the actively fermenting wort 24h after pitching the yeast might be a good idea?

Or maybe the oxygen will be used up quick enough by the yeast anyway? I don't know, but let us wait for the final thread to discuss these topics. For now, you can just try what I wrote above, the 3,5g ascorbic acid pre mash, per 20 liter wort in the fermenter. That should do the trick for you, especially if you are not using pure O2.

I am thinking about brewing an american light lager to test this idea further.....

Anyway, what you should do when bottling is minimising headspace. 5mm air in the bottle is enough. Do not go much lower, as bottles might burst when temperature changes due to expanding liquids, but 5mm is enough. This on it's own reduces the oxigen expossure in the bottle significantly. Ich checked it myself and there are a lot of people who experimented with this and made great documentations with pictures that clearly show the positive effect on the shelf life of the beer.
Thanks @Miraculix ! I don't do any pure oxygen additions either. I have my AIO system sitting on a chair and my fermenting bucket on the floor and just open the valve and let the wort run into the bucket. There is always a thick foam pile on top when the transfer is over, but I've seen some data that shows this method provides less oxygen than one would think versus using an oxygen wand. (I don't want to stir the pot with the other group you mentioned in your earlier post:))

I am planning an ESB and an American wheat as my next batches. I think I will definitely try this technique on one of those batches and see how it works out.

I read on one of the lager threads about adding the asorbic acid at packaging along with reducing head space. Might try that method on the other batch and hold back a few bottles without the asorbic acid as a control. It's all in the name of science right!? :yes:

Cheers!
 
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Miraculix

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Thanks @Miraculix ! I don't do any pure oxygen additions either. I have my AIO system sitting on a chair and my fermenting bucket on the floor and just open the valve and let the wort run into the bucket. There is always a thick foam pile on top when the transfer is over, but I've seen some data that shows this method provides less oxygen than one would think versus using an oxygen wand. (I don't want to stir the pot with the other group you mentioned in your earlier post:))

I am planning an ESB and an American wheat as my next batches. I think I will definitely try this technique on one of those batches and see how it works out.

I read on one of the lager threads about adding the asorbic acid at packaging along with reducing head space. Might try that method on the other batch and hold back a few bottles without the asorbic acid as a control. It's all in the name of science right!? :yes:

Cheers!
I am personally quite sure that oxygen has a detrimental impact during the boil and probably also during the mash, so personally, I would want to add the vitamin C before doughing in.

An interesting experiment would be to add a little bit more vitamin C directly prior to bottling and to leave out some bottles to see if there's a difference after one or two months.
 

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am personally quite sure that oxygen has a detrimental impact during the boil and probably also during the mash,
That is something I don't really understand. If the year need the oxygen for fermentation, it seems like the hot side oxygen would be minimally problematic if not beneficial. Not trying to turn this into a LODO thread but that is something I find paradoxical in the brewing world.

Edit: I totally agree cold side oxygenation is bad at every point.
 
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Miraculix

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That is something I don't really understand. If the year need the oxygen for fermentation, it seems like the hot side oxygen would be minimally problematic if not beneficial. Not trying to turn this into a LODO thread but that is something I find paradoxical in the brewing world.

Edit: I totally agree cold side oxygenation is bad at every point.
Please, DO NOT MENTION THIS WORD AGAIN!!!!!!!! :D

I swear, they get attracted, they will be there, they will wine and they will ruin the thread. PLEASE DON'T!!!!!!
 
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Miraculix

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That is something I don't really understand. If the year need the oxygen for fermentation, it seems like the hot side oxygen would be minimally problematic if not beneficial. Not trying to turn this into a LODO thread but that is something I find paradoxical in the brewing world.

Edit: I totally agree cold side oxygenation is bad at every point.
The thing is, due to the heat, on the hot side, oxidation is happening at an accelarated rate. Meaning there is much more oxidation happening in five minutes at 100C than at 20C in five minutes. This means, that when heating up the whole thing, it might be a good idea to have more control over the oxygen there. Might be, can be, could be. There is a lot of guessing, so I would not go into the extremes here. All I say is, that adding an antioxidant before heating it up, is a cheap insurrance and might actually be beneficial, especially if ones workflow is a bit slobby in regards to oxygen.

But I do not like chemicals in my beer, however, I can live with ascorbic acid. I wouldn't want to add sulfites or any of the other mixtures that are suggested somewhere else.
 

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Oxygen is dramatically more of a problem at high temperatures compared to low.

OTOH, it could be argued that a bit of oxygen is part of the character of cask ale, and hence of British styles, so I'm not sure ascorbic acid is appropriate here when it might work for other styles.
 
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Miraculix

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Oxygen is dramatically more of a problem at high temperatures compared to low.

OTOH, it could be argued that a bit of oxygen is part of the character of cask ale, and hence of British styles, so I'm not sure ascorbic acid is appropriate here when it might work for other styles.
I agree. However, "a bit of oxygen" and full blown marzipan are quite a difference. Just speaking from my position, I probably happily loose that bit of apropriate oxygen impact if I can get reliably rid of the dreaded almond flavour which I am sometimes experiencing when having my homebrew. I am still not 100% sure where it originates from, but I am 80% sure that it happens during the hot side. Getting rid of the mash ton, gettin back to biab lowered the amount of it drastically, but it is still sometimes detectable for me. I might now be a bit sensitive to it, but it really disturbs me. That is why I am quite happy atm with the ascorbic acid solution, at least it looks like it is working. We will see, I only brewed one beer with it so not quite a decent sample size yet.
 

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I swear, they get attracted, they will be there, they will wine and they will ruin the thread. PLEASE DON'T!!!!!!
Nobody is going to whine. You guys are already saying all the stuff we would like HSA is bad, heat accelerates staling, use antioxidants and good cold side practices etc. We are actually pleased to see how these ideas are percolating into the mainstream and helping people improve their beers.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but citric acid is the same as asorbic acid and vitamin c right?
 

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Ok thanks for seeing me straight. Do they work the same as far as reducing oxygenation?
My understanding is that ascorbic is the better preservative. Citric acid is more acidic and has the sour flavor. Ascorbic has less flavor and is the compound that keeps sliced apples from browning. So citric for pH adjustment, ascorbic for preservation. I imagine the extra oxygen has something to do with it.
 

Coastalbrew

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My understanding is that ascorbic is the better preservative. Citric acid is more acidic and has the sour flavor. Ascorbic has less flavor and is the compound that keeps sliced apples from browning. So citric for pH adjustment, ascorbic for preservation. I imagine the extra oxygen has something to do with it.
Thanks, that was very helpful.

Cheers!
 
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Another interesting aspect is the impact on mash pH, but I think we are going a bit far into the rabbit whole here now, this deserves it's own thread. I will create one later today.
 
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I vaguely remember a study that focused on the impact of ascorbic acid on the oxidation of the beer. I don't recall at what stage the acid was added, but the result was, somewhat paradoxically, that staling actually occured at an accelerated rate, unless an amount was used that was impractical due to the impact on pH and flavour.

A quick google search did not spit out anything that was not behind a paywall (ffs, science, get over yourself!), but I found the following brief snippet on a website dedicated to LODO (home)brewing:

iseriouslycannotgetthislinktowork dot com slash flavour-stability-in-home-brewing/ said:
There is also the matter of adding vitamin C (ascorbic acid)—a well-known antioxidant found in foods—to the mash or beer, which some home brewing books will even recommend doing. However, ascorbic acid’s beneficial effects on beer flavour stability are dubious at best, as it tends to behave pro-oxidatively at the (low) concentrations you would employ in beer.
 

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That is something I don't really understand. If the year need the oxygen for fermentation, it seems like the hot side oxygen would be minimally problematic if not beneficial. Not trying to turn this into a LODO thread but that is something I find paradoxical in the brewing world.

Edit: I totally agree cold side oxygenation is bad at every point.
I thought the hot side aeration debate was settled long ago as something homebrewers don’t need to be concerned over.
 

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This one seems to have had some merit

[Purpose] - To evaluate the differences between a beer dosed with sodium metabisulfite at packaging and the same beer packaged without the chemical

 
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z-bob

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bwible

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Do you think SMB is viable for bottle-conditioned beers? Or will it inhibit the beer yeast too much and it'll never carbonate?
They mention in the article they kegged all the beers and its probably not for bottle conditioning. Unless you keg and fill bottles out of the keg with a beer gun or the like.
 
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