British Golden Ale Miraculix Best - Classic English Ale

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Tobor_8thMan

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I didn't read back thru all the posts, so please forgive me if the following has been answered. The golden syrup is common in many British ale as, from what I've read, the golden syrup, often Lyle Golden Syrup, was readily available. It's my understanding regular table sugar will do as a substitute. Is this valid? If not, then a valid substitute readily available in the good ole USA.
 

balrog

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I can get Lyles in the grocery store.
I can also make invert with Turbinado or Sugar in the Raw depending on how much time I'm willing to spend.
 

DBhomebrew

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I don't know about Golden, but I got Lyle's treacle on Amazon.

Table sugar is really no substitute. It'll make beer, but the different inverts bring a ton of flavor.

For diy invert, it really is very easy. I've got a batch going right now.

1 pint water
1lb sugar (more natural the better)
1/4tsp citric acid

Boil water.
Heat off, mix in sugar and acid.
Heat on, let go until it hits 240.

You could call it quits here for #1 or transfer to a 250° oven and let it go until the color's right for #2 or #3.

16222397456261128873514221756384.jpg
 

Northern_Brewer

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The golden syrup is common in many British ale
To be more precise, it's common in many British homebrew recipes, particularly those trying to clone commercial beers.

Commercial breweries never use it, as they have access to proper brewing sugars. But golden syrup is available in every supermarket and pretty much anywhere that sells regular sugar, so it's a convenient hack for UK homebrewers to approximate brewer's invert #1.

AIUI the best place to get it is the places that cater to British expats, they have far less markup than places selling it as a fancy brewing ingredient. But as has been said, I wouldn't go out of your way to get it, the whole point of it is that it's a convenient approximation to making your own invert, and if it's not convenient for you then you might as well just take the time to make your invert.
 

DBhomebrew

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When I taste my homemade invert #1 it tastes like delicious candy. Corn sugar tastes like corn sugar. Even with the low color #1 there's some malliard stuff going on.
 

kmarkstevens

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Krogers chain supermarkets should carry it - at least my local QFC has it on shelf. I think in the syrup section? I don't remember but I was in a not very obvious spot. Sugars, near the kosher foods????

World Market also carries Lyle's Golden Syrup. Lyle's Golden Syrup | World Market

Might be in a plastic squeeze bottle instead of the standard can.

I did a web search on "lyle's golden syrup near me" and found it in the World Market
 
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Miraculix

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Sugar is no appropriate substitute, corn syrup also not. A quick and dirty way of doing it is to take some raw sugar cane sugar (the very lightly coloured one, but still not completely white, that's important) throw it into a pot, add a dash of lemon juice and water and simmer till the colour is dark enough. Try it from time to time and your will start tasting the difference once the maillard reactions start to happen. Your can make it quite dark actually, tastes nice! But be very careful, this stuff is hooooot!!!

As I'm in Germany again, I have no easy access to Lyle's golden syrup, I always use the above method. Small side pot during the boil, not much of a hustle
 
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ba-brewer

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Inverting cane sugar turns it into glucose which the same as corn sugar, from that point it is a reasonable substitute. As glucose enhances ester production that seems to be the most important part of including golden invert sugar in a recipe.

Sure there is some caramelization in the lyle's golden syrup but even at 10% of the grain bill the flavor added should be subtle when diluted into 4.0gal of water especially with the addition of crystal malt.
 
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Miraculix

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Inverting cane sugar turns it into glucose which the same as corn sugar, from that point it is a reasonable substitute. As glucose enhances ester production that seems to be the most important part of including golden invert sugar in a recipe.

Sure there is some caramelization in the lyle's golden syrup but even at 10% of the grain bill the flavor added should be subtle when diluted into 4.0gal of water especially with the addition of crystal malt.
No it is not. Flavour is different and glucose syrup is not an apropriate substitute. All tested and done before, there is a reason why British breweries do use the propper stuff.

Btw. inverting cane sugar turns it into glucose and fructose. 50/50. But it is not about the inversion, it is what happens to the inverted sugar when heated with all the other stuff in raw cane sugar, that is what brings the flavour.
 

z-bob

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Inverting cane sugar turns it into glucose which the same as corn sugar, from that point it is a reasonable substitute. As glucose enhances ester production that seems to be the most important part of including golden invert sugar in a recipe.

Sure there is some caramelization in the lyle's golden syrup but even at 10% of the grain bill the flavor added should be subtle when diluted into 4.0gal of water especially with the addition of crystal malt.
Inverting cane sugar gives you a mixture of glucose and fructose; should be 50% each. One of them (I think it's the fructose) begins caramelization at a relatively low temperature. That's a different reaction than the browning reaction, although that is going on too. Browning is inhibited by low pH but not stopped. I don't know if caramelization is pH sensitive or not.

Corn sugar might be a reasonable substitute for white invert syrup if any recipes actually call for that. Just adding cane sugar to the wort at the beginning of the boil is probably a better substitute. Light and dark invert syrups actually have some taste to them besides sweet. I haven't brewed much with them (and when I have, it was a pretty dark invert that I made) so I can't say how significant that is to the brew, but I think it might be important.
 

ba-brewer

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Thanks for the information regarding fructose in invert sugar @Miraculix and @z-bob.

My comments were mostly with respect to the lyle's golden syrup, to me the flavor from the tin does not translate to anything significant in the final product. Homemade invert made with raw sugars have more flavor and color even with minimal cook times.

Different people have different threshold to flavors so maybe others can taste the difference. I know I can pickup the the burnt roast flavors from the small additions of black malt from the Wheeler recipes for color corrections so maybe others can pickup something from Lyles syrup.
 
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Miraculix

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Thanks for the information regarding fructose in invert sugar @Miraculix and @z-bob.

My comments were mostly with respect to the lyle's golden syrup, to me the flavor from the tin does not translate to anything significant in the final product. Homemade invert made with raw sugars have more flavor and color even with minimal cook times.

Different people have different threshold to flavors so maybe others can taste the difference. I know I can pickup the the burnt roast flavors from the small additions of black malt from the Wheeler recipes for color corrections so maybe others can pickup something from Lyles syrup.
To be fair, I never made a side by side comparison, and as there is already a lot of different flavour contribution from the crystal and the yeast, it is very hard to pinpoint the contribution from Lyle's. It would be itneresting to see how pure glucose would compare against the same amount of Lyle's.

However, I read a lot on the shutupaboutbakleyperkins blog, and the guy really knows his english ales and the propper ingredients and he really emphasizes that even the lightest invert sirup (kind of like Lyle's, I think Lyle's is even a bit darker) adds something to the ale that no "normal" sugar would add. So I am flying a bit blind here, but I tend to trust this guy as he is quite the one to ask when it comes to (historic) British ales.
 

ba-brewer

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As I had a tin of Lyle's I decided to double my past experience. First I put 5gm in 8oz of water(10% with 60%BHE) to see what it would look and taste like at a scaled down volume. I was surprised at how much color it added but there was very little flavor once diluted.

A side by side of Lyle's golden syrup vs corn sugar, 6oz of either in approximately 2.5gal.
IMG_2844 - Copy.JPG
IMG_2846 - Copy.JPG

Fawcett golden promise and white wheat, british crystal 50/60 full volume no sparge mash, it is being fermented with verdant yeast. The jars and fermentors are opposite.
 
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Miraculix

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As I had a tin of Lyle's I decided to double my past experience. First I put 5gm in 8oz of water(10% with 60%BHE) to see what it would look and taste like at a scaled down volume. I was surprised at how much color it added but there was very little flavor once diluted.

A side by side of Lyle's golden syrup vs corn sugar, 6oz of either in approximately 2.5gal.
View attachment 731967View attachment 731968
Fawcett golden promise and white wheat, british crystal 50/60 full volume no sparge mash, it is being fermented with verdant yeast. The jars and fermentors are opposite.
Uhhhh niiice, let us know about the outcome! I love experiments like this one!
 

kmarkstevens

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I've got the Voss yeast Golden Ale spunding even as I write this. Should be able to tap the keg this coming weekend. FG tasting was just fine.

BTW, I pitched this the day that Seattle hit 110F, so finally had a chance to use a Kviek at it's natural temperature
 

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Can anyone confirm the flavor profile difference using Pub, 002 and 1968?, last mail i had with Imperial they recommend Pub as the equivalent to 002 and 1968, i know from Sugerok yeast tree 002 and 1968 are not the same yeast but not sure about Pub.
 

kmarkstevens

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My yeast offs have always resulted in Pub being the winner. Not for just me but also the folks at the LHBS.

True Fullers yeast should have a marmalade flavor according to the head brewer. There are other threads on this. I'm not sure my palate knows what to look for in the marmalade. But I do know I at least prefer Pub
 
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Miraculix

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Can anyone confirm the flavor profile difference using Pub, 002 and 1968?, last mail i had with Imperial they recommend Pub as the equivalent to 002 and 1968, i know from Sugerok yeast tree 002 and 1968 are not the same yeast but not sure about Pub.
Pub tastes better to me then 002.
 

cmac62

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I've got the Voss yeast Golden Ale spunding even as I write this. Should be able to tap the keg this coming weekend. FG tasting was just fine.

BTW, I pitched this the day that Seattle hit 110F, so finally had a chance to use a Kviek at it's natural temperature
K, I as I read some of the thread I was wondering about Voss since it is reported to have the orange flavor. Don't forget to update on tasting notes :mug:
 
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Miraculix

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K, I as I read some of the thread I was wondering about Voss since it is reported to have the orange flavor. Don't forget to update on tasting notes :mug:
Imo it's a completely different thing with Voss, not even remotely British, a very unique taste.
 
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Miraculix

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No doubt. Actually I have never gotten any orange out of the Lallabrew Voss. What is the best dry alterative yeast. Sorry didn't read all 8 pgs. :no:
I think you can use verdant IPA and will get a pretty good beer. Different, but still great. There's no other dry option that really delivers.
 

cmac62

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I think I'll have to wait until after summer, or see if my LHBS has the A09 next time I'm in there. Also then I can save some slurry and use it for additional batches. I remember my parents (Kiwis) having golden syrup in the house when growing up. I loved it on toast with butter. LOL :D
 
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Miraculix

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I think I'll have to wait until after summer, or see if my LHBS has the A09 next time I'm in there. Also then I can save some slurry and use it for additional batches. I remember my parents (Kiwis) having golden syrup in the house when growing up. I loved it on toast with butter. LOL :D
I'll be brewing this next time with verdant IPA. I love that yeast.
 

DBhomebrew

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I'll be brewing this next time with verdant IPA. I love that yeast.
I know Verdant is derived from 1318, do we know where 1318 actually comes from? I believe it was once attributed to Boddy's, but that's no longer considered its true heritage. Am I right?
 
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Miraculix

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I know Verdant is derived from 1318, do we know where 1318 actually comes from? I believe it was once attributed to Boddy's, but that's no longer considered its true heritage. Am I right?
I have no idea. I just know, it tastes good and has a very nice character.
 

Northern_Brewer

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We know that genetically, 1318 is part of the wider Whitbread family, my suspicion is that somehow it was harvested or otherwise obtained from a Boddies product made in a Whitbread factory after Strangeways closed.
 

kmarkstevens

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K, I as I read some of the thread I was wondering about Voss since it is reported to have the orange flavor. Don't forget to update on tasting notes :mug:
Voss was ok but not my favorite. Reminiscent of Windsor fruitiness. Not sure if I describe this well. I'm much better when folks know how to describe flavors comment, and then I'm like "ya, that's it." Maybe "orange" is correct but I've kicked the keg. That said, I've got a Voss cyser going at the moment. I'm not a fan of Windsor either, but Notty is one of my go to yeasties.

I need to try Verdant. Happy to hear it is NOT 1318. to my palate, 1318 has always been "dull" or "flat" and resulting beers always the tepid side of lackluster.
 
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Miraculix

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Voss was ok but not my favorite. Reminiscent of Windsor fruitiness. Not sure if I describe this well. I'm much better when folks know how to describe flavors comment, and then I'm like "ya, that's it." Maybe "orange" is correct but I've kicked the keg. That said, I've got a Voss cyser going at the moment. I'm not a fan of Windsor either, but Notty is one of my go to yeasties.

I need to try Verdant. Happy to hear it is NOT 1318. to my palate, 1318 has always been "dull" or "flat" and resulting beers always the tepid side of lackluster.
I also wouldn't describe Voss as orange flavour. I would describe it as kveik flavour. I once made an IPA with an original kveik from Norway, the mixed culture from a local home brewer, this centuries old yeast mix, and with this mix, this particular taste was even stronger. It wasn't bad at all, just very unique. I think one could make a very drinkable ipa with bittering additions only, that would store very well. Because the yeast derived flavours do not deminish over time, like hop aroma does. I forgot a few bottles and after a few months passed they tasted as good as freshly brewed.
 

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I brewed it with 1084 Irish Ale this time as I was curious to try this yeast in a pale grist. It's surprinsingly close to the 1968 version I made earlier this year. Cloudier, but very close.
As always, a tasty english pint.
 
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Miraculix

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I brewed it with 1084 Irish Ale this time as I was curious to try this yeast in a pale grist. It's surprinsingly close to the 1968 version I made earlier this year. Cloudier, but very close.
As always, a tasty english pint.
Glad to hear! I will probably try this beer with lutra in the future. I never fermented an English grist with a clean yeast.
 

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The beer has been in the keg for a while now. The yeast (1084) dropped out and it gets better and better with time. The mouthfeel -and taste- is excellent for a 4% beer. Even my wife, who hates british beer, loves this one.

The beer looks cloudy, but it's not: it's only condensation.

unnamed (2).jpg
 
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Miraculix

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The beer has been in the keg for a while now. The yeast (1084) dropped out and it gets better and better with time. The mouthfeel -and taste- is excellent for a 4% beer. Even my wife, who hates british beer, loves this one.

The beer looks cloudy, but it's not: it's only condensation.

View attachment 745719
Looks pretty good!
 

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I just finished rereading the whole thread again, for inspiration. My last English-ish beer was a clown beer; the typical American problem of too much of everything :) Too much alcohol, too much crystal malt, too much dark invert. It was hard to drink unless I either drank it ice cold or mixed it with a light lager to dilute it (then it was actually pretty good, but probably still wrong)

Anyway. How would the original recipe be with S-33 yeast? (I know Pub yeast is the essential ingredient, so it won't be the same beer) I just found a stash of yeast packets and there were 5 or 6 packets of S-33 in there. Since they are a couple of years old, I'll use Go-Ferm to rehydrate. I think S-33 is the old Edme strain, and even tho' they call it "Belgian" it's actually a close cousin of Windsor ale yeast. And I'll try to get the right crystal malt instead of substituting the right color American crystal.
 
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