Hey folks. I just picked up a kit from Midwest for a hazy coconut ipa, but something seems off. It's a full 60 minute boil, but their recipe (If Im reading it correctly) only calls for hop additions at 7 and 10 minutes. I've never done a beer that didnt have SOMETHING at 60 minutes for bittering properties. Unless they're writing their instructions backwards to what I'm accustomed to reading? Typically I'm used to "10 minute addition" meaning there are 10 minutes left until flameout.
Midwest kit question: No bittering hops?
- Thread starter half_whit
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Is it this one? The specs say 35 IBU, which seems unlikely with 10 and 7 minute additions, even with high-alpha Galaxy/Mosaic. At 10 and 7, you're getting flavor and aroma, but for bitterness, you need more like 30-60 minutes in the boil.
They probably left something out. Have you reached out to Midwest?
They probably left something out. Have you reached out to Midwest?
NEIPA's are supposed to be low on bitterness. I would think you will get the 35 IBUs from those times. If you want to find out run the recipe through a recipe building program like Beersmith or Brewer's Friend.
I have seen NEIPA recipes that have only whirlpool additions and dry hop additions... They are going for maximum flavor and aroma.
I have seen NEIPA recipes that have only whirlpool additions and dry hop additions... They are going for maximum flavor and aroma.
- Thread Starter
- #4
I ran it through brewtarget (antiquated, but its the only one I learned how to use) and it does get some bitterness, but with the limitations of that program I'm not calculating anything close to the OG the recipe cites, so I'm not sure what to trust at this point. I just didnt think the lupulin had enough time to break down and do its job in just 10 minutes. Guess I'll give it a shot!
- Thread Starter
- #5
The AG version, but yes thats the one!
I haven't reached out yet, but I will. Reaching out to you guys was easier
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
I regularly make 15-min boil extract pale ales that are 20-40 calculated IBUs. It just takes 2-3 oz depending on the AA%.
For galaxy and mosaic (both 12-14% AA), at a 10 and 7 min additions would need 1.25 to 1.5 oz per addition (Tinseth). Doesn't seem to far off to believe it to me. It depends on how large the hop additions are for the late additions.
For galaxy and mosaic (both 12-14% AA), at a 10 and 7 min additions would need 1.25 to 1.5 oz per addition (Tinseth). Doesn't seem to far off to believe it to me. It depends on how large the hop additions are for the late additions.
Oh, you'll get SOME bitterness at 10 and 7 minutes, but it's very inefficient and would require more hops than necessary.
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Does your recipe look like this one?
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/701544/hula-hop-d-coconut-milkshake-ipa
If so, the 10min is after flame out in the 'whirlpool'. Older IBU formulas don't account for those additions without modification. Try out brewers friend or brewfather, both free trials.
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Agreed, but it does make for a quick brew day that I can fit in after a work day. It's only a 1.5 hour brew day.Oh, you'll get SOME bitterness at 10 and 7 minutes, but it's very inefficient and would require more hops than necessary.
How does a 15 min hop addition shorten the brew day? Is your total boil time shorter? Curious, not being snarky.
But a NEIPA is low on bitterness and high on flavor and aroma. You could do a bitterness charge, but people make things simpler by getting the small amount of bitterness from the flavor and aroma additions. They usually are using very large amounts of hops anyway.Oh, you'll get SOME bitterness at 10 and 7 minutes, but it's very inefficient and would require more hops than necessary.
- Thread Starter
- #12
Thank you for that. This layout of the recipe is much easier to follow than the printout they sent me. Poor wording in some places. I surely would have missed the whirlpool
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
15-min boil total boil time. Take total water up to 180F with steeping grains, remove steeping grains, add extract, take all the way to boil. Then hops at start of boil, and at flame out. Chill, pitch, and done.
That makes sense. Thus, the bitterness is basically the byproduct of the large amount of late addition flavor/aroma hops.
Go farther back. He does 15 minute boils.....
day_trippr
Covid-19 Vaccine Effectivity Test Subject
That recipe is going to result in about a quart of boil-off.
Definitely want to be careful about the sparge...
Cheers!
Definitely want to be careful about the sparge...
Cheers!
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If doing the extract version, a 15 min boil is perfectly fine. If all-grain, you still want to boil for the full hour to volatilize DMS precursors. If you boil the all-grain version for only 15 mins, you will most likely have a bit of DMS in the final beer.
It's an extract recipe.
But... steeping "1 lb Flaked Oats" makes no sense, it will yield nothing.
I really don't understand why these brew shops keep selling extract recipes/kits that include (raw) grains which need to be mashed with a diastatic malt, which is not supplied. Neither are instruction to a mini mash.
day_trippr
Covid-19 Vaccine Effectivity Test Subject
lol - totally missed the extract thing.
Carry on!
Carry on!
For my NEIPAs I use 7 or 8 grams of Warrior at 60' giving ~15 IBU.
Then 4-6 oz of a mix of "IPA hops" in a reduced temp whirlpool: Half for 10' at 170F then the other half for 30' at 150F, before chilling down to ferm temps.
I sometimes feel I can omit the Warrior altogether. Or perhaps substitute with a small charge of a similar mix of IPA hops at 5' (before flameout) or increase the 170' hops charge for extra bitterness and flavor. So many possibilities.
Now according to BeerSmith 3 I only gain 9.9 IBUs from 90 grams (~3 oz) of 15.5 %AA of hops (average %AA of the hop mix) at 170F for 10'. And 8.4 IBUs from the exact same amount of hop mix at 150F for 30'. Total IBUs: 15.3 + 9.9 + 8.4 = 33.6.
That resulting beer tastes a bit more bitter than 34 IBU, especially noticeable toward the end of the keg when the original thick milkshake has been reduced to a much thinner haze. So...
Recipe/kit instructions can be very confusing, and are sometimes sheer wrong in certain departments. If you've brewed long enough you'll know what's what.
There are some irregularities too, such as using flaked oats in a steep, as I pointed out earlier.
The recipe on BF is not complete, it misses the coconut addition, if you feel the need for one.
- Thread Starter
- #23
I've definitely noticed some sacrifices in getting my kits online, but my local brew shop has...disappointed me lately. And it's on the other end of town. Getting it online right now is sheer convenience
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
It's a milkshake IPA so flaked oats may have been added to create the haziness (for better or for worse).
sicktght311
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I do the same with my NEIPAs, but i feel like a clean 60 minute edition does make a difference. Before i was using a bittering charge i awlays felt the juice was there but it was always lacking something. However i also just brewed a "Kitchen Sink" NEIPA just to get rid of whatever hops i had left in the freezer, and i went for .5oz of Tettnanger as a FWH, then my usual 5-6oz of aroma hops in a 165degree whirlpool for 25 minutes, and then 2 dryhops. I dont know if its just a coincidence, but this might be the best NEIPA i've brewed so far, and i have no idea if its just really good from the dryhop combination and my brain is just excited about that, or if moving from 60 to FWH made a difference
If that worked why would all grain brewers be mashing all those flaked goods?
We also know that that kind of wort haziness settles out rather fast, first as hot break in the boil and whatever is left as cold break during chilling.
Most Wheat beer kits include the same systematic error in the form of flaked wheat.
sicktght311
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Flaked oats dont cause hazyness. They're added for body and protein content.
The hazyness tends to come from proper yeast selection, early and heavy dryhopping, and water adjustments. You can get plenty of hazy from a 100% 2-row grain bill
The hazyness tends to come from proper yeast selection, early and heavy dryhopping, and water adjustments. You can get plenty of hazy from a 100% 2-row grain bill
BrewnWKopperKat
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what about
- Basic Brewing Radio: November 7, 2019 - Hot Side Hopping for Hazy IPAs
- Basic Brewing Radio:November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps
- various eposides of Hop and Brew School (the podcast)
- MBAA podcast: Tracking IBU Through the Brewing Process:
- Brew Strong podcast: Tracking IBU
- "The New IPA" (book)
tl; dr: pellet hops appear to get to work work quickly; various hop oils appear to have different temperature profiles.
lump42
The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
I didn't intend to say it was the correct or best way to add haze. But flaked oats, un-mashed, will cause starch haze. It also isn't stable, but NB/MS may not have known or cared when they put the kit together. I remember when hazy beers just became a trend, stores where putting out hazy recipe kits with all sorts of things. Just like the brewers who were trying to mimic the style at the time, which some of were adding flour to the kettle.
