Midwest kit question: No bittering hops?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

half_whit

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
451
Reaction score
149
Location
York
Hey folks. I just picked up a kit from Midwest for a hazy coconut ipa, but something seems off. It's a full 60 minute boil, but their recipe (If Im reading it correctly) only calls for hop additions at 7 and 10 minutes. I've never done a beer that didnt have SOMETHING at 60 minutes for bittering properties. Unless they're writing their instructions backwards to what I'm accustomed to reading? Typically I'm used to "10 minute addition" meaning there are 10 minutes left until flameout.
 

MaxStout

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
10,783
Reaction score
6,783
Location
Twin Cities north 'burbs
Is it this one? The specs say 35 IBU, which seems unlikely with 10 and 7 minute additions, even with high-alpha Galaxy/Mosaic. At 10 and 7, you're getting flavor and aroma, but for bitterness, you need more like 30-60 minutes in the boil.

They probably left something out. Have you reached out to Midwest?
 

kh54s10

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
18,714
Reaction score
5,454
Location
Edgewater
NEIPA's are supposed to be low on bitterness. I would think you will get the 35 IBUs from those times. If you want to find out run the recipe through a recipe building program like Beersmith or Brewer's Friend.

I have seen NEIPA recipes that have only whirlpool additions and dry hop additions... They are going for maximum flavor and aroma.
 
OP
half_whit

half_whit

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
451
Reaction score
149
Location
York
NEIPA's are supposed to be low on bitterness. I would think you will get the 35 IBUs from those times. If you want to find out run the recipe through a recipe building program like Beersmith or Brewer's Friend.

I have seen NEIPA recipes that have only whirlpool additions and dry hop additions... They are going for maximum flavor and aroma.
I ran it through brewtarget (antiquated, but its the only one I learned how to use) and it does get some bitterness, but with the limitations of that program I'm not calculating anything close to the OG the recipe cites, so I'm not sure what to trust at this point. I just didnt think the lupulin had enough time to break down and do its job in just 10 minutes. Guess I'll give it a shot!
 
OP
half_whit

half_whit

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
451
Reaction score
149
Location
York
Is it this one? The specs say 35 IBU, which seems unlikely with 10 and 7 minute additions, even with high-alpha Galaxy/Mosaic. At 10 and 7, you're getting flavor and aroma, but for bitterness, you need more like 30-60 minutes in the boil.

They probably left something out. Have you reached out to Midwest?
The AG version, but yes thats the one!

I haven't reached out yet, but I will. Reaching out to you guys was easier :)
 

lump42

The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
643
Location
Bluegrass Region
I regularly make 15-min boil extract pale ales that are 20-40 calculated IBUs. It just takes 2-3 oz depending on the AA%.

For galaxy and mosaic (both 12-14% AA), at a 10 and 7 min additions would need 1.25 to 1.5 oz per addition (Tinseth). Doesn't seem to far off to believe it to me. It depends on how large the hop additions are for the late additions.
 

lump42

The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
643
Location
Bluegrass Region
I ran it through brewtarget (antiquated, but its the only one I learned how to use) and it does get some bitterness, but with the limitations of that program I'm not calculating anything close to the OG the recipe cites, so I'm not sure what to trust at this point. I just didnt think the lupulin had enough time to break down and do its job in just 10 minutes. Guess I'll give it a shot!
Does your recipe look like this one?
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/701544/hula-hop-d-coconut-milkshake-ipa

If so, the 10min is after flame out in the 'whirlpool'. Older IBU formulas don't account for those additions without modification. Try out brewers friend or brewfather, both free trials.
 

lump42

The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
643
Location
Bluegrass Region
Oh, you'll get SOME bitterness at 10 and 7 minutes, but it's very inefficient and would require more hops than necessary.

Agreed, but it does make for a quick brew day that I can fit in after a work day. It's only a 1.5 hour brew day.
 

kh54s10

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
18,714
Reaction score
5,454
Location
Edgewater
Oh, you'll get SOME bitterness at 10 and 7 minutes, but it's very inefficient and would require more hops than necessary.

But a NEIPA is low on bitterness and high on flavor and aroma. You could do a bitterness charge, but people make things simpler by getting the small amount of bitterness from the flavor and aroma additions. They usually are using very large amounts of hops anyway.
 
OP
half_whit

half_whit

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
451
Reaction score
149
Location
York
Does your recipe look like this one?
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/701544/hula-hop-d-coconut-milkshake-ipa

If so, the 10min is after flame out in the 'whirlpool'. Older IBU formulas don't account for those additions without modification. Try out brewers friend or brewfather, both free trials.
Thank you for that. This layout of the recipe is much easier to follow than the printout they sent me. Poor wording in some places. I surely would have missed the whirlpool
 

lump42

The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
643
Location
Bluegrass Region
How does a 15 min hop addition shorten the brew day? Is your total boil time shorter? Curious, not being snarky.
15-min boil total boil time. Take total water up to 180F with steeping grains, remove steeping grains, add extract, take all the way to boil. Then hops at start of boil, and at flame out. Chill, pitch, and done.
 

MaxStout

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
10,783
Reaction score
6,783
Location
Twin Cities north 'burbs
But a NEIPA is low on bitterness and high on flavor and aroma. You could do a bitterness charge, but people make things simpler by getting the small amount of bitterness from the flavor and aroma additions. They usually are using very large amounts of hops anyway.
That makes sense. Thus, the bitterness is basically the byproduct of the large amount of late addition flavor/aroma hops.
 

day_trippr

Covid-19 Vaccine Effectivity Test Subject
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
35,667
Reaction score
17,953
Location
Stow, MA
That recipe is going to result in about a quart of boil-off.
Definitely want to be careful about the sparge...

Cheers!
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,060
Reaction score
7,189
Location
Pasadena, MD
Last edited:

BrewerBrad82

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
1,364
Reaction score
1,183
Location
Minneapolis
If doing the extract version, a 15 min boil is perfectly fine. If all-grain, you still want to boil for the full hour to volatilize DMS precursors. If you boil the all-grain version for only 15 mins, you will most likely have a bit of DMS in the final beer.
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,060
Reaction score
7,189
Location
Pasadena, MD
That recipe is going to result in about a quart of boil-off.
Definitely want to be careful about the sparge...
It's an extract recipe.

But... steeping "1 lb Flaked Oats" makes no sense, it will yield nothing.
I really don't understand why these brew shops keep selling extract recipes/kits that include (raw) grains which need to be mashed with a diastatic malt, which is not supplied. Neither are instruction to a mini mash.
 

day_trippr

Covid-19 Vaccine Effectivity Test Subject
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
35,667
Reaction score
17,953
Location
Stow, MA
lol - totally missed the extract thing.
Carry on!
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,060
Reaction score
7,189
Location
Pasadena, MD
But a NEIPA is low on bitterness and high on flavor and aroma. You could do a bitterness charge, but people make things simpler by getting the small amount of bitterness from the flavor and aroma additions. They usually are using very large amounts of hops anyway.
For my NEIPAs I use 7 or 8 grams of Warrior at 60' giving ~15 IBU.

Then 4-6 oz of a mix of "IPA hops" in a reduced temp whirlpool: Half for 10' at 170F then the other half for 30' at 150F, before chilling down to ferm temps.

I sometimes feel I can omit the Warrior altogether. Or perhaps substitute with a small charge of a similar mix of IPA hops at 5' (before flameout) or increase the 170' hops charge for extra bitterness and flavor. So many possibilities.

Now according to BeerSmith 3 I only gain 9.9 IBUs from 90 grams (~3 oz) of 15.5 %AA of hops (average %AA of the hop mix) at 170F for 10'. And 8.4 IBUs from the exact same amount of hop mix at 150F for 30'. Total IBUs: 15.3 + 9.9 + 8.4 = 33.6.
That resulting beer tastes a bit more bitter than 34 IBU, especially noticeable toward the end of the keg when the original thick milkshake has been reduced to a much thinner haze. So...
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,060
Reaction score
7,189
Location
Pasadena, MD
Thank you for that. This layout of the recipe is much easier to follow than the printout they sent me. Poor wording in some places. I surely would have missed the whirlpool
Recipe/kit instructions can be very confusing, and are sometimes sheer wrong in certain departments. If you've brewed long enough you'll know what's what.

There are some irregularities too, such as using flaked oats in a steep, as I pointed out earlier.

The recipe on BF is not complete, it misses the coconut addition, if you feel the need for one.
 
OP
half_whit

half_whit

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
451
Reaction score
149
Location
York
It's an extract recipe.

But... steeping "1 lb Flaked Oats" makes no sense, it will yield nothing.
I really don't understand why these brew shops keep selling extract recipes/kits that include (raw) grains which need to be mashed with a diastatic malt, which is not supplied. Neither are instruction to a mini mash.
I've definitely noticed some sacrifices in getting my kits online, but my local brew shop has...disappointed me lately. And it's on the other end of town. Getting it online right now is sheer convenience
 

lump42

The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
643
Location
Bluegrass Region
It's an extract recipe.

But... steeping "1 lb Flaked Oats" makes no sense, it will yield nothing.
I really don't understand why these brew shops keep selling extract recipes/kits that include (raw) grains which need to be mashed with a diastatic malt, which is not supplied. Neither are instruction to a mini mash.
It's a milkshake IPA so flaked oats may have been added to create the haziness (for better or for worse).
 

sicktght311

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
563
Reaction score
246
For my NEIPAs I use 7 or 8 grams of Warrior at 60' giving ~15 IBU.

Then 4-6 oz of a mix of "IPA hops" in a reduced temp whirlpool: Half for 10' at 170F then the other half for 30' at 150F, before chilling down to ferm temps.

I sometimes feel I can omit the Warrior altogether. Or perhaps substitute with a small charge of a similar mix of IPA hops at 5' (before flameout) or increase the 170' hops charge for extra bitterness and flavor. So many possibilities.

Now according to BeerSmith 3 I only gain 9.9 IBUs from 90 grams (~3 oz) of 15.5 %AA of hops (average %AA of the hop mix) at 170F for 10'. And 8.4 IBUs from the exact same amount of hop mix at 150F for 30'. Total IBUs: 15.3 + 9.9 + 8.4 = 33.6.
That resulting beer tastes a bit more bitter than 34 IBU, especially noticeable toward the end of the keg when the original thick milkshake has been reduced to a much thinner haze. So...
I do the same with my NEIPAs, but i feel like a clean 60 minute edition does make a difference. Before i was using a bittering charge i awlays felt the juice was there but it was always lacking something. However i also just brewed a "Kitchen Sink" NEIPA just to get rid of whatever hops i had left in the freezer, and i went for .5oz of Tettnanger as a FWH, then my usual 5-6oz of aroma hops in a 165degree whirlpool for 25 minutes, and then 2 dryhops. I dont know if its just a coincidence, but this might be the best NEIPA i've brewed so far, and i have no idea if its just really good from the dryhop combination and my brain is just excited about that, or if moving from 60 to FWH made a difference
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
17,060
Reaction score
7,189
Location
Pasadena, MD
It's a milkshake IPA so flaked oats may have been added to create the haziness (for better or for worse).
If that worked why would all grain brewers be mashing all those flaked goods?

We also know that that kind of wort haziness settles out rather fast, first as hot break in the boil and whatever is left as cold break during chilling.

Most Wheat beer kits include the same systematic error in the form of flaked wheat.
 

sicktght311

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Messages
563
Reaction score
246
Flaked oats dont cause hazyness. They're added for body and protein content.

The hazyness tends to come from proper yeast selection, early and heavy dryhopping, and water adjustments. You can get plenty of hazy from a 100% 2-row grain bill
 

BrewnWKopperKat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
2,250
Reaction score
1,312
what about
  • Basic Brewing Radio: November 7, 2019 - Hot Side Hopping for Hazy IPAs
  • Basic Brewing Radio:November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps
  • various eposides of Hop and Brew School (the podcast)
  • MBAA podcast: Tracking IBU Through the Brewing Process:
  • Brew Strong podcast: Tracking IBU
  • "The New IPA" (book)
?
tl; dr: pellet hops appear to get to work work quickly; various hop oils appear to have different temperature profiles.
 

lump42

The Lajestic Vantrashell of Lob
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
1,079
Reaction score
643
Location
Bluegrass Region
If that worked why would all grain brewers be mashing all those flaked goods?

We also know that that kind of wort haziness settles out rather fast, first as hot break in the boil and whatever is left as cold break during chilling.

Most Wheat beer kits include the same systematic error in the form of flaked wheat.
Flaked oats dont cause hazyness. They're added for body and protein content.

The hazyness tends to come from proper yeast selection, early and heavy dryhopping, and water adjustments. You can get plenty of hazy from a 100% 2-row grain bill
I didn't intend to say it was the correct or best way to add haze. But flaked oats, un-mashed, will cause starch haze. It also isn't stable, but NB/MS may not have known or cared when they put the kit together. I remember when hazy beers just became a trend, stores where putting out hazy recipe kits with all sorts of things. Just like the brewers who were trying to mimic the style at the time, which some of were adding flour to the kettle.
 
Top