Mid and late hop additions - how much flavor vs bitterness?

[snarf7]

OK, so I've had good success using high AA hop choices @ 60mins (Summit, Magnum, Simocoe) and then saving my more typical flavor hops for late in the boil or after flameout (Citra, Cascade, Wilamette, etc) but is there any science to this? Like how much flavor am I getting @ 30min? 20min? 10min? Obviously the later you add the more the flavor vs bitter you get but there's gotta be more to it than that no?

I see some of these recipes and they have a dozen hop additions during the boil and I wonder does that really matter that much and if so how?

Like if I add 10g of Citra @ 30 I get 10 IBUs
If I add 15g of Citra @ 15 I also get 10 IBUs

If you brewed two identical beers and did one with multiple additions every 5-10 mins vs a boil where you consolidated those into 3 additions would you be able to tell the difference? How?

 

[brewbama]

I use 60-30-10 simply out of brewday convenience. Other things happen at those times in my brewery so it’s easy. Basically, all boil hops are bitter hops. The later the more flavor. But really, whirlpool, hop back, dry hop, etc techniques get the most flavor

 

[snarf7]

I use 60-30-10 simply out of brewday convenience. Other things happen at those times in my brewery so it’s easy. Basically, all boil hops are bitter hops. The later the more flavor. But really, whirlpool, hop back, dry hop, etc techniques get the most flavor

Yeah I get all that. And I do very much what you do and simplify my additions...but what I'm digging at is 'do different varieties of hops reveal unique characteristics at certain times in the boil that make some of the best recipes great'? like my example, does 10g citra @ 30 = 15g citra @ 15? Or are there much more complex things going on chemically in terms of what flavor is being imparted?

 

[couchsending]

There are different chemical reactions that happen based on the hop itself, time, pH, size of kettle, boil temp, etc.

Lots of variables. I’m one that’s a proponent of adding hops during the boil and not just at 60 for bittering and WP for flavor. Usually it’s at 90 or 60 for bitterness, a 20 minute addition, and WP addition. But again that depends.

 

[RPh_Guy]

This may be helpful:

Chill time also has an effect, so your system/process matters, but it's a good starting point.

 

[BassBabiesBeer]

This may be helpful:

View attachment 632756

Chill time also has an effect, so your system/process matters, but it's a good starting point.

Do you have any experience with Cryo Hops? I recently tried to up my Mosaic punch in my IPA by WP hopping with a cryo vs an Aroma addition at 5 min. I've also been First Wort Hopping in a few styles to try and maximize flavor profile overall.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you have any experience with Cryo Hops?

I don't, sorry.

Although I really enjoy certain hops in modest quantities (and I LOVE wet hops), I'm really not much of a hoppy beer guy. I want to taste the delicious malt in beer and also I think that yeast provides much superior flavor to hops, for my taste.

like my example, does 10g citra @ 30 = 15g citra @ 15?

IBU does not equal flavor extraction. 15g @15 will have significantly more aroma & flavor than 10g @30.

Basically, don't even think about IBU when deciding on your aroma and flavor additions. Only adjust the 60 minute addition to achieve the desired bitterness.
Flame-out (with rapid chilling), whirlpool, hop tea, and dry hop additions are all very useful for increasing hop flavor/aroma without adding too much IBU if you're shooting for a low bitterness (e.g. brut or neipa).

Hope this makes sense. Cheers

 

[snarf7]

IBU does not equal flavor extraction. 15g @15 will have significantly more aroma & flavor than 10g @30.

Basically, don't even think about IBU when deciding on your aroma and flavor additions. Only adjust the 60 minute addition to achieve the desired bitterness.
Flame-out (with rapid chilling), whirlpool, hop tea, and dry hop additions are all very useful for increasing hop flavor/aroma without adding too much IBU if you're shooting for a low bitterness (e.g. brut or neipa).

Hope this makes sense. Cheers

Hey thanks for the chart, that's a nice reference point to have when planning a recipe.

And yes I've experimented with many of the techniques you mention so I do appreciate what they bring to the table as well. What I'm driving at though (and not explaining very well, sorry) is what specific flavor qualities are brought out at different times for different hops?

Lemme give an example with a familiar hop: Cascade is typically described as floral, spicy and citrusy - do different properties reveal themselves more at different times? Like does a 20 min addition bring out more spiciness while a 10 min addition will accentuate the citrus more? And moreover, is this effect consistent across varieties or does it vary completely with the type of hop? (e.g. assume my Cascade example is actually accurate...would Chinook follow the same pattern? - 20min more spice and 10min more citrus?)

Somebody must have written a paper or a book on this and what's going on chemically, I'd be really interested in delving into that some more. Cheers

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The New IPA: Scientific Guide to Hop Aroma and Flavor. http://scottjanish.com/

 

[RPh_Guy]

Hey thanks for the chart, that's a nice reference point to have when planning a recipe.

And yes I've experimented with many of the techniques you mention so I do appreciate what they bring to the table as well. What I'm driving at though (and not explaining very well, sorry) is what specific flavor qualities are brought out at different times for different hops?

Lemme give an example with a familiar hop: Cascade is typically described as floral, spicy and citrusy - do different properties reveal themselves more at different times? Like does a 20 min addition bring out more spiciness while a 10 min addition will accentuate the citrus more? And moreover, is this effect consistent across varieties or does it vary completely with the type of hop? (e.g. assume my Cascade example is actually accurate...would Chinook follow the same pattern? - 20min more spice and 10min more citrus?)

Somebody must have written a paper or a book on this and what's going on chemically, I'd be really interested in delving into that some more. Cheers

You have good questions.

 

[kevin58]

There have been some very good podcasts from Beersmith on recent hopping studies you might want to check out. The most recent is an interview with Stan Hieronymus that came out this past March. I believe the one after that was about designing beer with John Palmer and he went into detail about hopping schedules to achieve what you are looking for. There have been a couple more with Randy Mosher on hopping and bio-transformation all within the past 6 to 9 months.

 

[snarf7]

There have been some very good podcasts from Beersmith on recent hopping studies you might want to check out. The most recent is an interview with Stan Hieronymus that came out this past March. I believe the one after that was about designing beer with John Palmer and he went into detail about hopping schedules to achieve what you are looking for. There have been a couple more with Randy Mosher on hopping and bio-transformation all within the past 6 to 9 months.

How was the interview with Stan Hieronymus interview? He has a book on Amazon on hops I was looking at but the reviews are not positive, people say it's got a lot of fluff and filler and very little nitty gritty on the actual science of hop usage, etc

 

[RPh_Guy]

As @BrewnWKopperKat mentioned, this one looks like exactly what you want:

Scott Janish
The New IPA: Scientific Guide to Hop Aroma and Flavor
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0578477866/