Metallic Off Flavor

[reuliss]

Folks:

What could cause a metallic, copper taste in a beer? Almost tastes like I'm sucking in a coin. Please note that the beer touches nothing other than stainless steel and plastic. Any ideas?


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[reuliss]

FWIW, here's my recipe:

BD The Gateway

Style: American Pale Ale
Type: All GrainCalories: 188.35
Rating: 0.0Boil Size: 8.91 Gals
IBU's: 42.83Batch Size: 7.00 Gals
Color: 8.8 SRM Boil Time: 60 minutes
Preboil OG: 1.049
EstimatedActual
Brew Date: - 06/29/2014
OG: 1.058 1.054
FG: 1.014 1.012
ABV: 5.66 % 5.54 %
Efficiency:73.00 % 68.78 %
Serve Date: 07/13/2014 -

Grains & Adjuncts
AmountPercentageNameTimeGravity
13.50 lbs 81.82 %Pale Malt (2 Row) US60 mins1.036
1.00 lbs 6.06 %BEST Malz Munich Malt60 mins1.037
1.00 lbs 6.06 %Bairds Carastan60 mins1.035
1.00 lbs 6.06 %Victory Malt60 mins1.034

Hops
AmountIBU'sNameTimeAA %
1.00 ozs 28.77Simcoe60 mins11.50
1.00 ozs 4.99Cascade10 mins 5.50
1.00 ozs 9.07Centennial10 mins10.00
1.00 ozs 0.00Cascade0 mins 5.50
1.00 ozs 0.00Centennial0 mins10.00
1.00 ozs 0.00Cascade7 days 5.50
1.00 ozs 0.00Centennial7 days10.00

Yeasts
AmountNameLaboratory / ID
1.5 dry pkgsSafale US-05Fermentis US-05

Additions
AmountNameTimeStage
0.50 each Whirlfloc Tablet 15 mins Boil

Mash Profile
Profile Name: Mashtun Cooler

Grain Temp: 70.00 °FMash Tun Vol Loss: 0.75 Gals
Grain Absorption: 0.13 Gals/lbTun Temp Loss: 2.00 °F
Cooling Shrinkage: 4.00 %Kettle Trub Loss: 0.50 Gals
Hourly Boiloff: 14.00 %

Mash Steps:
Infusion60 [email protected]°F
Add 33.00 qts water @ 166.6°F
Batch Sparge
Sparge 14.20 qts water @ 170.00 °F

Water Profile
(none)

Fermentation Steps
NameDays / TempEstimatedActual
Primary14 days @ 68.0°F06/29/201406/29/2014

Carbonation
(none)

Notes
Added 1.25 ml of lactic to mash. Then 1.75 ml to sparge. That brought sparge water ph to over six. Added .3 ml mor lactic and that brought sparge ph to about 5.8.

1.049 preboil gravity

Was supposed to add 4 g gypsum to kettle, but forgot
www.iBrewMaster.comVersion: 1.1.4



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[Talgrath]

Usually metallic tastes in beer have three potential causes.

1. Abrasive cleaning of metal or damaged metal pots/equipment: metal particulates get into the beer.

2. Poorly stored malts; malts stored in a metal container may take on metal flavors that can get into your beer via hydrolysis.

3. High levels of metals in your water; if there's a lot of copper in your water, it's possible that is what you are tasting.

 

[reuliss]

Any chance it could be my cooper immersion chiller?


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[reuliss]

Usually metallic tastes in beer have three potential causes.

1. Abrasive cleaning of metal or damaged metal pots/equipment: metal particulates get into the beer.

2. Poorly stored malts; malts stored in a metal container may take on metal flavors that can get into your beer via hydrolysis.

3. High levels of metals in your water; if there's a lot of copper in your water, it's possible that is what you are tasting.

I have occasionally used steel wool to get off some stains on the bottom of my boil kettle. Could that be it? And if so, is the kettle toast?


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[Talgrath]

I have occasionally used steel wool to get off some stains on the bottom of my boil kettle. Could that be it? And if so, is the kettle toast?


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That could be our culprit right there, steel wool removes the coating that keeps the steel stainless which can introduce rust. Now, I've never had this issue before so I'm not sure you absolutely need to toss it. According to this thread that I found: http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30106 you should be able to fix it with Barkeeper's Friend.

 

[JoeSpartaNJ]

Do you keg or bottle.

If you keg, the beer could be overcarbed. Carbonic acid gives off a metal type off flavor.


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[reuliss]

Should I be able to see the rust? Nothing there that I can see. I just inspected it.


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[Talgrath]

Should I be able to see the rust? Nothing there that I can see. I just inspected it.


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Maybe, maybe not, it might not necessarily be rust per se so much as the fact that the coating has been rubbed off and the metallic ions are leaking into the water. Also the comment above, I didn't know that about carbonation, but that might be worth considering.

 

[craigmw]

That's nearly a 1/2 pound of hops used, much of it for dry hopping. Any chance that some of that may just reflect hop funkiness?

 

[Yooper]

I have noticed two major causes of metallic flavors in beer- one is oxidation when a beer has dark malts in it, due to the makeup of the malts, and the other is water related (ie iron or something in the brewing water).

Can it be oxidation? How old is the beer?

 

[reuliss]

I have noticed two major causes of metallic flavors in beer- one is oxidation when a beer has dark malts in it, due to the makeup of the malts, and the other is water related (ie iron or something in the brewing water).

Can it be oxidation? How old is the beer?

Thanks, Yooper. Not oxidation. Beer is about a month old but I'm very meticulous about that. I drop hop in co2 flushed kegs and do closed transfers. Cold coach only in pressurized kegs. I also don't think it's the water, as this is not a consistent problem that I've been having.

I really do think its co2 bite, as i degassed a sample and the taste was gone. So i then degassed the entire keg and carbed all over again. And...the flavor came back. I didn't do any funky carbing techniques. Just put the keg back in keezer and hooked it up to steady 12 psi. I'm so stumped here.

 

[golfish67]

I've had a similar problem on 2 separate batches. I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Could it be old hops?
2. Is the immersion cooler new? Or did you clean it with oxi-clean? It removes the oxidation layer on aluminum, might do the same on copper.
3. Are you using IO-star sanitizer? If so are you letting it completely drain out of your carboy? To me it tastes like the sanitizer smells. At least in my brew it did.

I would be very interested in hearing what you figure out.


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[reuliss]

I've had a similar problem on 2 separate batches. I have a couple of suggestions.
1. Could it be old hops?
2. Is the immersion cooler new? Or did you clean it with oxi-clean? It removes the oxidation layer on aluminum, might do the same on copper.
3. Are you using IO-star sanitizer? If so are you letting it completely drain out of your carboy? To me it tastes like the sanitizer smells. At least in my brew it did.

I would be very interested in hearing what you figure out.


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1. Nope. Hops were fresh.
2. Chiller is not new, and yes I typically sit that bad boy in star san for a while. Could removing the oxidation layer from the copper cause my problem, or are you saying that removing that layer would mean that the chiller could not be responsible?
3. Regular star san in the fermentor.

 

[golfish67]

Oxi-clean removes the oxidation layer. Don't know if starsan does or not. I would assume that it doesn't. When it happened to me my chiller was new and I didn't boil it first. So that might have been it in my case. I'm still chasing it too though. I don't have the answer...yet


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[golfish67]

I believe you need the layer of oxidation on metals such as copper and aluminum. At least that's what I've read.


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[afr0byte]

2. Chiller is not new, and yes I typically sit that bad boy in star san for a while. Could removing the oxidation layer from the copper cause my problem, or are you saying that removing that layer would mean that the chiller could not be responsible?

I don't know if it's enough to cause your problem (especially since I doubt the chiller is in there a long time), but I believe John Palmer has mentioned that copper is a no no for finished beer because of the lower pH (4-4.5 for finished beer). The sanitizer would be even lower, at a round 3. Why are you putting your chiller in star san?

That said, I'd be more inclined to think it's either a CO2 problem or iron in your water.

 

[Manzier]

I believe you need the layer of oxidation on metals such as copper and aluminum. At least that's what I've read.


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Aluminum and stainless steel are so corrosive that they instantly oxidize to create a protective surface that stops from further rusting, it's called passivation. If you touch stainless with steel or iron it damages the layer. If you wash with an acid it damages the layer. Also minor scratches or dents creates small pockets without enough exposure to air that stops the metal oxidizing and creating the protective layer. If that happens it causes tiny spot rusting that's almost impossible to see, that's why you should polish stainless or aluminum if you want it to last forever. Kinda off topic but yeh. Not sure about copper.



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[reuliss]

I don't know if it's enough to cause your problem (especially since I doubt the chiller is in there a long time), but I believe John Palmer has mentioned that copper is a no no for finished beer because of the lower pH (4-4.5 for finished beer). The sanitizer would be even lower, at a round 3. Why are you putting your chiller in star san?

That said, I'd be more inclined to think it's either a CO2 problem or iron in your water.

Just to be ultra safe from a sanitation standpoint, especially since I typically do a hop stand with the lid on my kettle and then add the chilller after the wort has cooled a bit on its own. For that reason, I don't add the chiller while the wort is still boiing. The wort is probaby sill hot enough to kill whatever is on the chiller when I do add it, but I was trying to be on the safe side.

 

[afr0byte]

Just to be ultra safe from a sanitation standpoint, especially since I typically do a hop stand with the lid on my kettle and then add the chilller after the wort has cooled a bit on its own. For that reason, I don't add the chiller while the wort is still boiing. The wort is probaby sill hot enough to kill whatever is on the chiller when I do add it, but I was trying to be on the safe side.

Why don't you boil your chiller? I'm assuming it's an immersion chiller? I put mine in for the last 15 minutes of the boil. That makes sure that mine is sanitized. Do you reuse that sanitizer? I doubt there would be enough copper in it to notice a copper flavor, but it's a shot in the dark.