medicinal/band aid/plastic off flavor

[jeff62217]

So I've ended up with 2 batches now with the same off flavor. Best I can describe or compare it to would be medicinal/ band-aid type of aroma and flavor.
It's more present in aftertaste and aroma.

I've been trying to figure out what could be the culprit.

I do 5.5 gallon all grain batches using a 10g cooler mash tun, ss 8 gal brew kettle, and single batch sparge. I'm pretty good at keeping the sparge temps under 170.

Also I've been diluting with RO water, usually 50% or more, and adding Calcium chloride and/or gypsum using this calculator:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

On the batches that haven't had this off flavor, everything else is fine.

Had been using a whole campden tablet prior to boil and boiling without a lid.

Recently started using half a tab after reading a whole tab for 5-6 gallons was overkill.

The one thing that comes to mind is fermentation temp control. I use a cooler full of water and submerge the carboy halfway, using frozen water bottles to bring temps down.

When I'm doing more than one batch at a time, I sometimes have to take the carboy out of the cooler during the last leg of fermentation to make room for the new batch...
I'm thinking temps may have gotten away on this particular batch that tastes bad..
Not sure if this is ferm temps or chlorophenols, perhaps both.

I just want to know so I can avoid having a whole keg of bad tasting beer in the future.. Any help or advice is appreciated.

 

[freisste]

A single campden tab is good for 20 gallons, so most people break them into 4 pieces.

Sounds like chlorophenols, but you aren't using city water. Are you buying RO water or do you have a home system? If it's a home system, you have to service it periodically, but don't ask me for details as I don't have one.

You're not sanitizing with bleach, are you?

 

[jeff62217]

I get it from a vending machine in front of a grocery store.. It has maintenance dates when the machine was last serviced and such.

I use starsan to sanitize

 

[unionrdr]

You said you use 50% or more RO water. The rest if from the tap could be introducing chloromine. *2,000 likes! I'm a 2000 man!

 

[surffisher2a]

Had been using a whole campden tablet prior to boil and boiling without a lid.

you need to treat your water with campden before you mash / sparge.


I don't use RO water, but I think I heard other mention that RO alone doesn't doesn't remove chlormains. I am not sure thats 100% correct, but something you might want to check out.

 

[jeff62217]

You aid you use 50% or more RO water. The rest if from the tap could be introducing chloromine. *2,000 likes! I'm a 2000 man!

yes, and I use campden tabs to treat for chlorine/chloromine. The funny thing is it doesn't happen every batch-most other beer that I've made has no off flavor.



I guess I'm just lucky that it hasn't happened on bigger/more expensive brews I've made.

Forgot to add this originally happened brewing a recipe for the first time, and again on a batch of ed wort's haus pale which I've brewed several times with great results.

Also used a fresh pack of wyeast 1056 with a starter on a stir plate.

 

[jeff62217]

you need to treat your water with campden before you mash / sparge.


I don't use RO water, but I think I heard other mention that RO alone doesn't doesn't remove chlormains. I am not sure thats 100% correct, but something you might want to check out.

So I would add campden when I add calcium chloride or gypsum? I've never had any problems doing it after collecting the wort, but it's easy enough to try that on my next brew day.

 

[jeff62217]

double post

 

[unionrdr]

The camden also has to have time to do it's job. you can't just dissolve it in the water & go.

 

[Yooper]

So I would add campden when I add calcium chloride or gypsum? I've never had any problems doing it after collecting the wort, but it's easy enough to try that on my next brew day.

The camden also has to have time to do it's job. you can't just dissolve it in the water & go.

Sure you can. I mean, crush it up and stir it in and then start heating your water.

You definitely want to add it before you use the water, but it can be minutes before and not a long time. The chemical reaction is instantaneous.

You want to add the campden (in the proper amount) right to the HLT (or whatever you're using to store your treated water) and treat both the mash and sparge water. Stir it well. It works best if the campden is crushed first, and dissolved in a little water, and then stirred into the entire volume of water.

Then you can heat the water as usual.

You never add campden to the wort- that's too late to prevent chlorophenols. The reaction happens when malt+ chlorinated water react together- WAY before the boil. The fact that you haven't always had an issue with chlorophenols may mean that your water supplier used less chlorine/chloramine at different times, or that you heated/boiled the water enough before using (if it was chloramine), or that you gave it time to off-gas in the HLT before using (if it was chlorine).

 

[BigEd]

The one thing that comes to mind is fermentation temp control. I use a cooler full of water and submerge the carboy halfway, using frozen water bottles to bring temps down.

When I'm doing more than one batch at a time, I sometimes have to take the carboy out of the cooler during the last leg of fermentation to make room for the new batch...
I'm thinking temps may have gotten away on this particular batch that tastes bad..

Temperature control during fermentation is the most likely cause here. If there was a water problem it would not vary greatly from batch to batch and you are already treating the water. So my money is on a fermentation that hits too high a temp producing phenolic byproducts reminiscent of Belgian yeasts.

 

[Yooper]

Temperature control during fermentation is the most likely cause here. If there was a water problem it would not vary greatly from batch to batch and you are already treating the water. So my money is on a fermentation that hits too high a temp producing phenolic byproducts reminiscent of Belgian yeasts.

But my understanding is that the water isn't being treated- the wort is having campden added (which would do nothing).

Diluting with 50% RO probably helps, but some batches apparently have more than 50% RO, and that would cut the chlorine or chloramine low enough to not be detectable especially seasonally if the water supply uses less chlorine in some seasons.

 

[atoughram]

Quote:
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.

-John Palmer

 

[jeff62217]

Thanks for the responses yooper and ed,

I think temp control is the issue but wanted to explore every possibility..
I've been adding campden to the wort since I've been doing extract brews, I think I used to add it at 170 when I took the steeping grains out, and never got this off flavor. Once I started doing all grain I continued to add it after all runnings were collected and I was bringing the wort to a boil because I never suffered any ill effects in doing so.

I can understand the effects when chlorine/chloramine reacts with the malt goodness and creates chlorophenols, what boggles me is I've done 25-26 all grain batches while incorrectly treating with campden and never had a problem.. that's my reasoning behind thinking ferm temps are the culprit.

That being said, I'll definitely add campden to my strike/sparge water from here out.

The first brew this flavor was in was prior to me diluting with RO and adding minerals... and I don't remember what ferm temps were like as it was quite a few batches ago.

This particular batch of EW's haus pale was kegged on 9-7, so it might be a little green.. but here's my concern:
I planned on doing an IPA on the day I kegged, and racked a new beer on the old yeast cake.. and it's my first time ever doing that.
I haven't tried it yet, it's been dry hopping for 4 days, but I kept this one under 68-69F.

Crossing my fingers here hoping the yeast won't ruin my second batch since I had better control of temps, but I'm worried I ruined the IPA too.

 

[BigEd]

But my understanding is that the water isn't being treated- the wort is having campden added (which would do nothing).

Diluting with 50% RO probably helps, but some batches apparently have more than 50% RO, and that would cut the chlorine or chloramine low enough to not be detectable especially seasonally if the water supply uses less chlorine in some seasons.

I read it as he had reduced the quantity of campden from one to a half tablet but was still using it. However, now I see the OP was adding the campden to his wort or runnings rather than the brewing liquor. In any event I'm still voting for a temperature problem.

 

[The_Bishop]

It can't hurt to try campden tabs in the brewing liquor before mashing, *and* better temperature control.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Sure you can. I mean, crush it up and stir it. It works best if the campden is crushed first, and dissolved in a little water, and then stirred into the entire volume of water.

Then you can heat the water as usual.

And the crushing is really important if you want it to be fast acting.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

That being said, I'll definitely add campden to my strike/sparge water from here out.

Bravo! Temp control is good at controlling both esters and phenols, but you're describing is most likely this IMHO.

 

[uatuba]

Campden tablets work immediately if they're crushed.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[jeff62217]

Can anyone tell me if I'm correct in assuming that chlorophenols will not age out in time, but yeast produced off flavors will mellow/age out?

 

[unionrdr]

One time early on I got a little bit of it & it aged out. But if there's a lot of it, don't count on it.