Mashing rolled oats..

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I've got 10lbs of Quaker old fashioned rolled oats. I'm familiar enough with mashing and fermenting on the grain, but I wondered if there is a way to convert the flaked oats past the gooey stage to a point I can separate it out without too much hassle. My plan is to add a pound and a half (or more?) of 6-row to convert, would additional barley or enzymes take it further?
 

z-bob

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More barley probably won't help unless you do a beta-glucan rest. What about using Beano? Will the enzymes (galactosidase) in that break down the beta glucans?
 
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in a case like this, i'd just say...on homedistiller, i got cussed out by someone, which i remember did this sorta thing with a double boiler..... :D
Actually my backup plan is a double boiler. I have a 6 gallon pot that just fits inside my boil kettle and rests on the false bottom. The kettle would be filled with enough water to create a jacket of sorts, and I'll program a step mash to manage the process. Probe will sit in the inner pot. I'll add the rolled oats and water, bring it to 150f for an hour or two to gelatinize, then let it cool down to the first rest temp before adding the 6-row and any additional enzymes. Looking for guidance on how much of which enzymes to add and at what temps/times.
 

bracconiere

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Actually my backup plan is a double boiler. I have a 6 gallon pot that just fits inside my boil kettle and rests on the false bottom. The kettle would be filled with enough water to create a jacket of sorts, and I'll program a step mash to manage the process. Probe will sit in the inner pot. I'll add the rolled oats and water, bring it to 150f for an hour or two to gelatinize, then let it cool down to the first rest temp before adding the 6-row and any additional enzymes. Looking for guidance on how much of which enzymes to add and at what temps/times.


no, no, no, the guy i was talking about used a double boiler to distill off the alcohol from the mash....mash as usual, and don't worry about the sparge...per-se...


ferment the whole damn lot, then distill off with a double boiler..
 

bracconiere

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Awesome idea! Any thoughts on the mash schedule?


honestly, just off the top of my head...if you have a refrac..grind up some extra barley, punch it into calc. give it some time, and if it needs more to meet the numbers stir in more malt to get it funky...i'd say oats gel at the same temp as barley, and wheat....so a normal mash temp would be fine? but yeah sparging would not work...but f'it...if you can distill the whole mash in a double boiler when done, why not?
 

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I don't think there are enough amylase enzymes in 1.5 lb of 6 row malt to convert 10 lb of raw oats. You'd be better off just dumping in some glucoamylase enzyme, which has the added advantage of hydrolyzing the dextrins as well as the linear starch chains for increased fermentable yield. I would cereal mash the oats first, and then drop the temp to convert with the enzymes. There is another enzyme called "glucabuster" that can be added to reduce gumminess of a mash.

"Glucabuster by CellarScience improves lautering and yield while making potential downstream filtering easier. Highly concentrated ß-glucanase breaks down glucans that can lead to stuck mashes and slow runoff. Xylanase and Cellulase break down the polysaccharide chains of arabinoxylan and cellulose. Together, all three enzymes help keep today’s challenging mashes flowing right."

Brew on :mug:
 
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IslandLizard

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[Sorry, made some edits after posting]
Make sure to have enough Diastatic Power (DP) in your grist mix to fully convert the flaked oats (non-diastatic) adjunct.
You want the average DP of your grist mix to be above the bare minimum of 35°Lintner (°L) per pound. Aiming for 40-45°L would be better for faster and more likely complete conversion.

1.5# of 6-row may have a DP of 160-180°L per pound* for a total of 240°L. That's not enough to convert 10 pounds of (oat) adjunct. E.I., each pound of 160 DP 6-row may be able to convert only an extra 3 pounds of adjuncts, at an average mix DP of 160/(1+3) = 40°L.

Always do an Iodine starch test when mashing at marginal DPs.

* DP can be higher, some distiller malts go up to 240°L.
 
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I don't think there are enough amylase enzymes in 1.5 lb of 6 row malt to convert 10 lb of raw oats. You'd be better of just dumping in some glucoamylase enzyme, which has the added advantage of hydrolyzing the dextrins as well as the linear starch chains. I would cereal mash the oats first, and then drop the temp to convert with the enzymes. There is another enzyme called "glucabuster" that can be added to reduce gumminess of a mash.

Brew on :mug:
Awesome, I've got glucoamylase in hand. I upped the 6-row to 3 lbs and added two lbs of golden naked oats for flavor. Brewersfriend is calculating diastatic power at 32 but I'll be adding alpha and gluco amylase as well. I'll do a cereal mash with just the oats, then cool down to 122 for protein rest and add the 6-row.
 

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i'd hate to get off topic or more on topic....but does anyone have a concrete formula for linters here? i mean 'i get it' by feel...but realy, is it like working a horse to death and how often it needs a break? is there something like mols, imean how about besides temp and time, is there like some limit on how many times these enzymes can benche a mol of starch or something?
 
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How well did it sparge?

I was thinking about your process and I might go for an overnight mash with something like this, but how gummy did 10# of rolled oats get? I used buckwheat flour once because I couldn't find any other form, and getting the liquid out was a messy, messy process. I think after two years, the beer is finally dropping clear.
 

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I use glucanase which is basically me as glucabuster. Much better than adding hulls etc, I put this in the pH corrected water at 45 Celsius with the oats and then slowly raise to hough in temp for the rest of the grains to go in.
It really helps.
 

bracconiere

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°Lintner you mean?
What are you looking for? How to calculate Diastatic Power (DP) in a grist mixture, or how to determine a malt's DP, or something else?



all of the above i guess...is it like how many mols of starch it can convert? i mean i 'get it'. but not on a ruler level...

to me it's weird, because temperature would effect enzymatic activity also? is it a gauge of how many mols of alpha/beta enzymes are in it strictly?
 

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Are the amylase enzymes actually used up during saccharification, or are they catalysts but degrade due to temperature whether used or not?
Glucanase is degraded above 70C I think. Certainly destroyed by boiling as all the other mash enzymes are.
Enzymes are biological catalysts not a substrate so they generally keep working if in the correct conditions. Although they will degrade at some stage as we all do.
 

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I use glucanase which is basically me as glucabuster. Much better than adding hulls etc, I put this in the pH corrected water at 45 Celsius with the oats and then slowly raise to hough in temp for the rest of the grains to go in.
It really helps.
Glucabuster is primarily glucanase, but it also has two other enzymes that hydrolyze non-starch, non-glucan poly-saccharides that are present in cell walls.

Brew on :mug:
 
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doug293cz

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Are the amylase enzymes actually used up during saccharification, or are they catalysts but degrade due to temperature whether used or not?
Enzymes are catalysts that are not used up by the hydrolysis reactions. They do get denatured at mash temperatures, with the rate of denaturing increasing rapidly with increasing temperatures. Also enzymes work faster at higher temperatures, and gelatinization proceeds faster at higher temperatures. So, the mash temperature is a compromise between trying to get full gelatinization and hydrolysis complete before all the enzymes get denatured. If the temperature gets too high, the race between denaturing and hydrolysis gets won by denaturing, and conversion is incomplete. The more enzymes you start with the longer time it will take for all of them to denature at any given temperature.

Brew on :mug:
 

doug293cz

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@doug293cz a bottle of Glucabuster arrived today, I'll attempt to mash my oats this weekend. Gotta strip some apple cider wash first to free up my 30L Speidel...
Looking forward to a first hand user report.

Brew on :mug:
 

IslandLizard

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@doug293cz a bottle of Glucabuster arrived today, I'll attempt to mash my oats this weekend. Gotta strip some apple cider wash first to free up my 30L Speidel...
The good tools have arrived...

Something else I remember from John Palmer, regarding beta-glucans. Stirring breaks up the gumminess too, as it decreases viscosity: "beta-glucans in the wort act as a non-Newtonian fluid." (p145 HtB 3rd Ed.)
I've used that method successfully with mashes high in rye (up to 50%). Adding boiling water and good stirring at mashout.
 
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