Mash tun manifold or SS braid?

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1KD1

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I am putting together a mash run for my first attempt at AG brewing. I am using a rectangle cooler. I have the parts to do either a SS braided hose or a copper manifold for draining the mash tun. I have 1" SS braid (several feet available) or 1/2" copper with all necessary fittings.

First questions is: which option is better or more efficient?

Second, if using copper manifold, I have seen them set up with slots cut in top of manifold and also with cuts in bottom of manifold. If I were to build a manifold, where would the slots be most efficient? Top or bottom of manifold?

Sorry if this has been covered but I kept finding different info in my searches.
 
How are you going to be sparging? If you're going to batch sparge, it doesn't really matter, so use whichever will be easiest or cheapest for you. If you plan on fly sparging, absolutely make the manifold. The slits should be on the bottom of the manifold. A lot of the pictures you saw with the slits on top are likely just to show the depth and spacing of the slits, and when in use they're likely installed the other way with the slits down.
 
I just did my first batch with a braid and wasn't a fan of hitting it while stirring and it moving around on the bottom and not knowing where it was laying. Just irritated me. So I built a manifold and put slits on the bottom mainly so that grains aren't sitting right on top of the slits and draining through as much. With the slits being on the bottom I would think your grain bed would settle a bit easier and be more stable. If they were on the top I could see them getting sucked into your brewpot easier.
 
I am planning on fly sparging. I think anyway! (I'm still learning terms and processes) I was thinking of making a hole in the lid of the cooler and adding a sparge arm type set up (stationary). So I could add the sparge water without opening the cooler.

Am I on the right track?
 
Yea... really it's a battle of time vs efficiency. Fly sparging is slightly more efficient than batch sparging, but takes longer. I'm impatient so I batch sparge. Seems like the majority of people I see batch sparge just to cut down on equipment cost and time.
 
I built a manifold with some left over copper pipe I had after I had been using the SS braided hose. I thought I'd be slick and drill holes into my manifold instead of cutting slits with a hacksaw. Well, one stuck sparge later and I re-installed my hose braid and haven't looked back since. Point of story though I used too large of a drill bit. I don't remember the size but if you don't go small enough with the holes the grains will fit themselves in the holes of the manifold and clog that sucker quick. I am thinking that the holes I drilled weren't much larger if at all than the width of a hacksaw blade cut. You may not be planning on drilling holes in yours though, just a word of caution based on experience.

On another note I don't see what the difference would be whether one does batch or fly sparging with braid or manifold. I guess a fly sparge is generally done at a slower rate, but don't really know why it would be preferred to fly sparge with a manifold. I've done both with my SS braid with no issues.
 
How are you going to be sparging? If you're going to batch sparge, it doesn't really matter, so use whichever will be easiest or cheapest for you. If you plan on fly sparging, absolutely make the manifold. The slits should be on the bottom of the manifold. A lot of the pictures you saw with the slits on top are likely just to show the depth and spacing of the slits, and when in use they're likely installed the other way with the slits down.

+1

I'll only add that if you PLAN to move to fly sparging, go to the effort of making the manifold. Less work down the road. If you have no interest in fly sparging, then go with the braid.

I went with the braid and loved it. I'm looking at moving to fly sparging, which makes my braid worthless. :)
 
I am planning on fly sparging. I think anyway! (I'm still learning terms and processes) I was thinking of making a hole in the lid of the cooler and adding a sparge arm type set up (stationary). So I could add the sparge water without opening the cooler.

Am I on the right track?

I don't see why you wouldn't want to open the cooler. If you're fly sparging you want to keep a layer of water on top of the mashed grains while sparging so for me it makes sense to have a visual on that.

But hey its home brewing and we tinker/invent/experiment.
 
On another note I don't see what the difference would be whether one does batch or fly sparging with braid or manifold. I guess a fly sparge is generally done at a slower rate, but don't really know why it would be preferred to fly sparge with a manifold. I've done both with my SS braid with no issues.

Channeling becomes a problem using fly sparging and a braid... With batch sparging it doesn't matter because you're stirring your sparge water when you add it. But with the fly sparge the water will take the path of least resistance to the braid and create channels decreasing efficiency. A good portion of your mash won't get "washed" during the sparge. The manifold increases your drain points reducing the risk of channeling.
 
Channeling becomes a problem using fly sparging and a braid... With batch sparging it doesn't matter because you're stirring your sparge water when you add it. But with the fly sparge the water will take the path of least resistance to the braid and create channels decreasing efficiency. A good portion of your mash won't get "washed" during the sparge. The manifold increases your drain points reducing the risk of channeling.

I've fly sparged with braid and have had 75%+ efficiency. Since channeling occurs above the exit point of the wort doesn't it happen whether one has a braid "filter" or a manifold type "filter"?
 
Don't know if you saw cperry7467's reply, but it answers the question.

If you've got your braid in a loop, it'll be better, but still not as good as a false bottom or manifold.

Essentially, if you're pulling your mash liquor from a single braid in the center of your cooler, you'll create a channel of fast moving liquid while the liquid elsewhere in your grain bed won't be moving, and you won't be getting that sugar out.

OTOH, if you have a manifold that is pulling a relatively uniform amount of liquor from the entire bottom of your cooler, you'll have a relatively uniform flow throughtout the grain bed, which is your goal in fly sparging.

You CAN do a fly sparge with a braid, but if you switch to a manifold or false bottom, you will likely improve your efficiency even more.
 
I've never used the braid method but to me it just makes sense that a square manifold running the 4 corners of your icechest and probably a couple of rows in the middle, will acheive better results that a single row (which is the copper braid) in the middle. FYI, I think that for most of us manifolders would attest that PVC is the way to go. It's cheap, easy to take apart and clean and easy to saw the slits into.
 
I've never used the braid method but to me it just makes sense that a square manifold running the 4 corners of your icechest and probably a couple of rows in the middle, will acheive better results that a single row (which is the copper braid) in the middle. FYI, I think that for most of us manifolders would attest that PVC is the way to go. It's cheap, easy to take apart and clean and easy to saw the slits into.

It only makes sense in fly sparging. It will not matter for batch sparging at all.
 
I've fly sparged with braid and have had 75%+ efficiency. Since channeling occurs above the exit point of the wort doesn't it happen whether one has a braid "filter" or a manifold type "filter"?

You can have 75% efficiency, not saying you can't... Consider 2 scenarios though.

1) Cooler with a 3'x3' bottom
2) Cooler with a 1'x1' bottom

Both using a single braid going straight down the middle. The 1'x1' cooler will likely be fine because on either side of the braid is 6" of space where pockets of grain won't get rinsed that great, not a huge deal. But on a 3'x3' cooler you've got 1.5' of space to the sides that isn't going to get rinsed well. That's a lot of grain. So it really just depends on the surface area of the bottom of your mash tun.
 
I've fly sparged with braid and have had 75%+ efficiency. Since channeling occurs above the exit point of the wort doesn't it happen whether one has a braid "filter" or a manifold type "filter"?

There's no doubt about it that using a concentrated exit point will create pockets of high sugar concentration. You're seeing it in the loss of 25% of the available sugar. The 75% efficiency you're seeing may be 85-90 with a more suited lautering device. If I were you, I'd just dump all the sparge water in, stir it up and drain it. You'll probably see the same efficiency and you'll have less of a risk of pH drift.
 
Don't know if you saw cperry7467's reply, but it answers the question.

If you've got your braid in a loop, it'll be better, but still not as good as a false bottom or manifold.

Essentially, if you're pulling your mash liquor from a single braid in the center of your cooler, you'll create a channel of fast moving liquid while the liquid elsewhere in your grain bed won't be moving, and you won't be getting that sugar out.

OTOH, if you have a manifold that is pulling a relatively uniform amount of liquor from the entire bottom of your cooler, you'll have a relatively uniform flow throughtout the grain bed, which is your goal in fly sparging.

You CAN do a fly sparge with a braid, but if you switch to a manifold or false bottom, you will likely improve your efficiency even more.

I was thinking more like braid in a loop or even more complex of a geometry from the git for the SS braid. What if it was 20' of braid spiraled in the bottom of the tun covering every square nanometer of the bottom of the tun? Not that anyone make 20' toilet hose - but I think there has been an assumption that what I am talking about is 6" of braid attached to the outgoing valve and that's it. If I can get 75%+ from my braid while fly sparging, how much more efficiency as a homebrewer do I need? And I definitely don't have 20' of braid in there.
 
Not sure what you're saying, but the more uniform throughout the bottom of the cooler, the better for fly sparging. Hey, find what works for you, and have a homebrew. How much more efficiency do you want? I'd like 100%, thanks. Barring that, I'll take the most I can get for the least amount of work.

So, if I got the same efficiency from batch sparging with a braid as I would get fly sparging with a braid. I'd batch sparge. Call me lazy. If I had my little heart set on fly sparging, I'd make the work worth it and get a more uniform false bottom or build a manifold.

But like I said earlier. Whatever works for you, man.
 
but I think there has been an assumption that what I am talking about is 6" of braid attached to the outgoing valve and that's it
Yes, I did assume that because that's a typical basic setup for most. But to your point, you can use multiple braids and T connect them or one long one and zig zag it, whatever, and have the same effect of a manifold.... Point is to have as many drain points as you can spread out around the bottom to prevent channeling.
 
cperry7467 said:
Yes, I did assume that because that's a typical basic setup for most. But to your point, you can use multiple braids and T connect them or one long one and zig zag it, whatever, and have the same effect of a manifold.... Point is to have as many drain points as you can spread out around the bottom to prevent channeling.

It still won't perform as well as a manifold since the braid is much more porous and lets through a lot more fluid. The wort will have much more flow close to where the braid connects to the drain, and you'll still have a lot of channeling. The portion/s of the braid furthest from the drain will have little to no flow. You can run into the same issue if you make too many holes or slits in your manifold.
 
NewDecadeBrewery said:
If I can get 75%+ from my braid while fly sparging, how much more efficiency as a homebrewer do I need? And I definitely don't have 20' of braid in there.

True, 75% is fine, but why on earth would you take all that extra time and hassle to fly sparge with a braid when you can get the same if not better efficiency in a fraction of the time by batch sparging with the same braid? :drunk:
 
In the grand scheme, yes 75% efficiency is perfectly acceptable and there are the folks who also say that slightly lower efficiency is better for wort quality due to stable pH, etc. However, when you achieve 75% in a channel-prone sparge, you're actually likely oversparging the areas closest to the channels. In other words, 75% batch sparge on your system should be better quality wort.

If that's not clear, think of it this way. Water that is making a B-line from the top to the narrow collection area may be stripping 100% of the sugar in that isolated column while the dead areas are holding on to 60% of the sugar. All said and done, your average is 75% but it's not the most favorable situation.
 
Bobby_M said:
In the grand scheme, yes 75% efficiency is perfectly acceptable and there are the folks who also say that slightly lower efficiency is better for wort quality due to stable pH, etc. However, when you achieve 75% in a channel-prone sparge, you're actually likely oversparging the areas closest to the channels. In other words, 75% batch sparge on your system should be better quality wort.

If that's not clear, think of it this way. Water that is making a B-line from the top to the narrow collection area may be stripping 100% of the sugar in that isolated column while the dead areas are holding on to 60% of the sugar. All said and done, your average is 75% but it's not the most favorable situation.

Also true. Good point.
 
NewDecadeBrewery said:
I don't see why you wouldn't want to open the cooler. If you're fly sparging you want to keep a layer of water on top of the mashed grains while sparging so for me it makes sense to have a visual on that.

But hey its home brewing and we tinker/invent/experiment.

I thought that keeping steady temps was important during the mashing process. This is why I felt that keeping the lid closed would be more beneficial.

Maybe I need more research on the differences between batch and fly sparging. I am not too worried about the amount of time it takes, I am more concerned with efficiency. I want to get the most bang for the buck when it comes to brewing.

Ease of use would be my second concern. I plan a whole day for brewing so time isn't an issue for my brew days.
 
What if you were to change the frequency of slits (if using a manifold) or block portions of the braid (if using a braid) based off of how far from the drain you are. The further from the exit point you get the closer together the holes are in the manifold, or the more of the braid you leave unblocked.

The lines below would be the slits in a manifold. I would think the flow rate across that manifold would be fairly uniform.

Far End of Manifold - ||| | | | | | | | | | | | - Exit of Manifold

If you did a braid in a loop, and had every half inch of the braid near the exit point blocked off, but the furthest away completely unblocked wouldn't it extract fairly evenly around the entire braid since you are artificially blocking the flow rate near the exit point?

I am looking at building a cooler mash tun soon, so this topic is of particular interest to me. I like the idea of using the braid, but want to get as much efficiency as possible, obviously.

Interested to hear people's thoughts on my idea. Thanks!
 
Modifying the open area of a braid kind of defeats the purpose of its use int eh first place, e.g. how easy it is to install. If you batch sparge... waste of time. If you fly sparge, the manifold will do what you're suggesting but will be more robust over the long term.
 
Hmm, ok, I guess I was thinking this could even be used on a manifold for fly sparging to reduce the chances of areas in the manifold getting a low flow rate.
 
Bobby_M said:
If you batch sparge... waste of time. If you fly sparge, the manifold will do what you're suggesting but will be more robust over the long term.

This.
 
Rhuarc said:
Hmm, ok, I guess I was thinking this could even be used on a manifold for fly sparging to reduce the chances of areas in the manifold getting a low flow rate.

It would, and some people have designed their manifolds that way. Another popular method is drawing from the center of the manifold.
 
True, 75% is fine, but why on earth would you take all that extra time and hassle to fly sparge with a braid when you can get the same if not better efficiency in a fraction of the time by batch sparging with the same braid? :drunk:

Because it is my hobby and I wanted to try different things. I was quite proud of my "sparge arm" which I came up with that consisted of a 2 qt plastic pitcher with holes drilled in the bottom with which I would shower my grains by hand and quite uniformly I thought. I never thought this was much hassle. I was in my garage, it was certainly my day off, I was most certainly listening to some good tunes, no-one was bothering me, and I was brewing. I am sure I was enjoying the s*&t out of it.

For the record I checked my notes and have gotten up to 83% efficiency with the way I fly sparge. Bobby M could be right portions of my grains may have been oversparged and portions undersparged, but I did not detect any off flavors or excessive tannins, etc. One way around this (using braid) would be to connect the looped (or otherwise configured) braid to a pipe in the center of the tun that leads to the drain. Problem solved, no?

I just wanted to chime in because a poster had mentioned that braid would be unusable (actually he said "worthless") to him if he wanted to fly sparge and I disagree. I don't think a brewer has to necessarily not use braid if he intends to fly sparge.
 
Bobby_M said:
In the grand scheme, yes 75% efficiency is perfectly acceptable and there are the folks who also say that slightly lower efficiency is better for wort quality due to stable pH, etc. However, when you achieve 75% in a channel-prone sparge, you're actually likely oversparging the areas closest to the channels. In other words, 75% batch sparge on your system should be better quality wort.

If that's not clear, think of it this way. Water that is making a B-line from the top to the narrow collection area may be stripping 100% of the sugar in that isolated column while the dead areas are holding on to 60% of the sugar. All said and done, your average is 75% but it's not the most favorable situation.

What if I just installed a large ball valve, didn't use any type of strainer (on the inside of the tun) , but used a large strainer to catch the grain coming out of the ball valve before it makes it to kettle? I understand that catching ten pounds of grain might be a PITA but would that be the "most efficient"? (since you could get every last drop of wort)
 
I have been fly sparging for 10 years and I have used false bottoms, copper manifolds and SS braids.

They all gave me the same efficiency (80%+) but I like the SS braid the best because it is easy to clean. Most of the people in my club fly sparge with stainless braid and have no efficiency issues.
 
What if I just installed a large ball valve, didn't use any type of strainer (on the inside of the tun) , but used a large strainer to catch the grain coming out of the ball valve before it makes it to kettle? I understand that catching ten pounds of grain might be a PITA but would that be the "most efficient"? (since you could get every last drop of wort)

It's not a matter of getting all the wort out, it's about washing your grains evenly to rinse out as much sugar from the grains as possible... So imagine a layer of sparge water on top of the grain, then all the grain mixed with water, then your drain. Open your drain and your sparge water (which is used to helped wash your grains) is going to start draining on the side of the cooler where the drain is because water will flow in the path of least resistance. On the other side of your cooler you'll have grain sitting there with very little water flow moving past it and not getting washed. If you drain all the water out that you can, there will still be water/sugar in the grains that didn't get washed. That's why it's important to have drain points scattered around the bottom of your mash tun, so the water has multiple paths it can take to exit the mash tun. So instead of the 1 exit out, it's got 10 or 20 and your sparge water will take different paths through the grain to get out of the mash tun. So your water is washing more grain, resulting in more sugar and greater efficiency.
 
Ok. I think I'm getting a better grasp on the process of "washing" the grain to get the good stuff out.

Thanks to everyone for the help and explanations.

Tomorrow we will work on how to calculate efficiency! LoL
 
image-3284603229.jpg
 

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